BruceMuzz

The US Public Health service also has quite a bit to say about food taken ashore from cruise ships.

Once prepared, the cruise line has no control over how that food is stored or when it is eaten.

Too many cruisers leave their brains at home, and do not think about that sandwich sitting for several hours on a hot bus or taxi. Then they eat it, get sick, and we have another "Outbreak" on a ship.

As a result, most cruise lines are very reluctant to send food ashore unless it is carefully controlled.

By the way, in Australia it is illegal to take even chewing gum or chocolate bars ashore from a ship.

So aside from all the finger-wagging disapproval you're getting here, I think this. Never seen any sniffer dogs when boarding the cruise ship. Anyone who wants to report a direct experience they actually saw otherwise, please report it. Anyone who actually saw anyone thrown off the ship for dope, please report it. Otherwise, keep your dark imaginings to yourself. The OP asked a straight-up question.

 

Once on the ship, be discreet. Don't blow dope when you're surrounded at the pool by chaises longues. Don't blow dope inside. Don't blow dope on your balcony before Ma and Pa Kettle go to early din-dins.

On the 26 ships I have managed for 11 different cruise lines, the standard procedure is just about the same.

When we get drug complaints from passengers or reports from cabin stewards, (and we receive them every week) we send Security to the cabin in question.

If the occupants hand over the substance to security, the officer takes it to the incinerator room and disposes of it. Case closed.

If there is any difficulty of any kind, we contact the authorities in the next port and request that they come onboard to investigate.

Most of the countries we visit have very serious penalties for importing drugs into their countries. About once a month we "lose" a passenger or two who go off in handcuffs, never to be seen again. Case closed.

American Navy and Coast Guard are next. They claim jurisdiction "over the 7 seas", and especially on any vessel where US passengers are sailing, anywhere in the world - or on any sister ship of any other ship that ever calls at a US Port.

 

Oh please ... are you serious with this statement?

 

The NAVY and Coast Guard don't 'claim' anything .... they implement the policies of the Federal Government

 

As Captain of a US Coast Guard Cutter I NEVER had jurisdiction over a not US flagged ship - cruise or other wise - unless the State Department had negotiated a long term relationship or a one time "statement of no objection."

 

{caveat ... sometimes the vessel fell into the definition of 'stateless' and there is an internationally recognized process for 'authorities' to investigate stateless vessels. Does not apply in ANY WAY to a cruise ship however as I've never seen one I thought was stateless}

Maybe as a USCG Captain YOU never had jurisdiction, but some of your previous colleagues tell me differently.

I'm not a US Citizen, so I really do not know how your military people operate.

But when we have USCG inspections, or the USCG gets involved in something we are doing, I ask many questions.

Your former colleagues have been very forthcoming - and very clear - that they consider the entire planet under their jurisdiction.

Our legal department has cautioned us that in dealing with these characters, we go along with their claims to avoid any "difficulties" with your government in US ports.

is HAL desperate for business? This is the first time in 10 years that we have not had at least one HAL cruise booked or any cruise line booked for that matter. We are taking a break from cruising. However, that does not mean I am not playing around and looking on the HAL website. And as we all know or should know, one is “tracked “ when doing this. I have been getting copious emails and now even phone calls asking to help me in booking a cruise. We are also getting much snail mail from HAL which we did not get previously. To be honest, I do not like getting phone calls from HAL. The emails and mail I can ignore.

We are in the 65+ age group – not the younger crowd which I assume would be the ones HAL is after. Anyone else experiencing this or is it just because we have no cruise booked? I’m curious!! Barbara

You make the mistake of assuming that cruise lines market to individuals.

They don not.

You are just a small number is a very large group of small numbers.

When your number is found in a certain spot, or doing a certain thing, a very large impersonal computer decides to send you something, because it was programmed to do that when your number has certain characteristics.

It's not P&O, that's for sure. They have heated fresh water pools on all 7 ships. The amount of fresh water used in the pools is a drop in the ocean (sorry!) compared with, say, the toilet system.

That's correct.

The average ship's swimming pool holds between 80 tons and 100 tons of water.

The average cruise ship in the tropics uses just under 1 ton of fresh water per person per day.

I never said the US rules the planet. If you are in international waters you are in no one's country. Who's law do you follow? Why do cruise lines follow the no alcohol unless 21 or over when they have passengers from countries without that law? They are in the middle of the ocean, who is going to enforce the US law?

 

I agree, the root problem is the US govt, not the cruise lines. They are only doing what they can get away with, as all companies do. I just find it curious that they follow the US law on alcohol age and ADA while skirting tax and wage laws in the US.

The regulations and laws that govern what happens on international ships are far more complicated than anyone here realizes.

First we have the laws and regulations from the Flag State. That is the country where the ship is registered and flagged. These laws and regulations apply in SOME cases and situations.

Then we have the laws and regulations of the Port State. That is the country where the ship is officially home ported. The port city and country are usually painted on the stern of the ship. These laws and regulations apply in SOME cases and situations.

Next are the laws and regulations of the port that the ship has most recently visited.These laws and regulations apply in SOME cases and situations. If an Italian citizen flies to Miami and immediately boards a cruise ship sailing to Europe, and wins a jackpot in the casino when the ship is in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, the casino operator is legally required to deduct US Income taxes from the winnings before giving the remainder to the Italian passenger.

Next are the laws and regulations of the port that the ship is planning to visit next. These laws and regulations apply in SOME cases and situations.

Next are regulations - but not laws - enforced by the Certification Society that has certified the ship safe to operate. Lloyds and Det Norske Veritas are 2 of the biggest ones. They have a great deal to say about how and what is allowed on the ship. Their agreements with the shipping company on who is allowed to smoke and where, determine the rates the cruise line pays the insurance company.

Then we have the difficult ones:

American Political Correctness has more to say about how we operate than just about anything else. Most cruise ships enforce a 21 year old minimum drinking age only because American passengers would have a cow if they saw someone younger drinking - and the resulting lawsuits in American Courts would be very costly for the cruise lines.

Topless sunbathing? Forget it. The Americans won't like it.

American litigation is next. Your teen cannot work out in the passenger gym or go to the disco, and your children cannot stay together in the kids club if they are a few years apart, due to the numerous lawsuits started by American passengers whose children had some sort of problem there in the past.

American Navy and Coast Guard are next. They claim jurisdiction "over the 7 seas", and especially on any vessel where US passengers are sailing, anywhere in the world - or on any sister ship of any other ship that ever calls at a US Port. That is why the German Cruise Line "Aida" (owned by Carnival Corp) cannot sell Cuban cigars to a European passenger when the ship is sailing in Asia. If they do, the US Government will hit them with a US$ 1 Million fine and/or ban other Carnival Corp ships from calling at any US ports.

How much does it cost a cruise ship to follow American labor laws?

When NCL America started up their new cruise line in Hawaii, they had to follow all US labor and tax regulations and laws.

Their labor costs increased by US$1 million per month, per ship.

That extra cost guaranteed that they could never make a profit - despite charging much higher prices than the competition.

Sadly, the service levels went in the opposite direction, despite the highly paid service staff.

NCL was forced to fire most of the American staff, re-flag 2 of the 3 American ships to Bahamas, and move the ships to locations where they could employ Filipinos and Eastern Europeans.

Be careful what you wish for.........................

OK, I'm confused - as usual :) .

 

In post #39 dated November 2011 you replied to my post with "You are correct". Now you are replying to that same post again by saying "Still not quite correct". Have things changed in the last two years, or are you just clarifying your original post, or changing your mind. I really need to know how "correct" I really am. ;)

As I mentioned before, you are correct in saying that we have the new technology to produce fresh water using heat from the engines. But you are not quite correct in saying that there is no cost involved.

In fact, the millions of dollars spent installing the equipment that recycles the engine heat guarantees that the fresh water generated will be the most expensive in the world.

But aside from that, we have the ongoing and escalating fuel costs.

Our fuel costs doubled between 2008 and 2011.

They nearly doubled again between 2011 and 2014.

We used to just fire up the boilers when we needed to produce fresh water, and steam and hot water for the Hotel, and we used electric heaters for the swimming pools.

No longer.

It is just too expensive.

Until 2012, we always had an extra engine online, just in case the hotel needed more power, or we had a chance to make water.

No longer.

We can't afford it.

Until 2013, we always put an extra engine online when arriving or departing a port, in case we needed extra maneuvering power.

No longer.

We can't afford it.

Since 2012 my company has shortened port times, giving us an extra hour of slow speed sailing before and after each port call. This slower speed saves plenty fuel, but rarely gives us enough power or heat to produce fresh water.

Since 2011, up to 40% of the salary of each senior officer is based on water and fuel savings.

The very last thing any of us is willing to do is arrange to produce more fresh water at sea.

I just called NCL to ask about a past guest rate and was told they are not available on all cruises. Just out of curiosity I was wondering if anyone knew why they wouldn't have them available for all cruises? Wouldn't that be a way to keep people coming back, a small incentive?

You make the mistake of assuming that cruise lines want you to come back.

Conventional wisdom tells us that past customers - if they are happy - are desirable to bring back again.

Conventional wisdom tells us that it is far more expensive to get a new customer than to keep a past customer happy and coming back.

Conventional wisdom tells us that if a customer is happy, he is the best advertisement for your business.

Now let's look at the reality.................

Most cruise lines have more business than they can handle. NCL has unfortunately been on a downward spiral in the past few years, and has not been able to enjoy that "problem". But things are changing for the better quite rapidly at NCL, and they are beginning to see increased bookings. Those increased bookings will lead to fewer and fewer incentives to bring you back again.

When your business is getting more customers than you can handle, and you cannot expand quickly enough to handle the increased volume, you have the advantage of being able to choose your customers. That's a huge advantage for a company.

Despite conventional wisdom, history has shown us that the very best average customer on a cruise ship is the first-timer.

Why is that?

Because cruise lines today ONLY make profit from onboard spending. The business model in our industry has evolved to selling cruises at cost - or even at a loss - to lure first-timers onboard and then shake all the money out of your pockets once you are onboard.

NCL was the leader in this practice, and has developed it very well.

The real problem happens with return cruisers. After the first or second cruise, you figure out that you don't need to buy EVERY drink of the day, photo, t-shirt, tour, and spa service. You figure out how to book your own tours and save a bundle. Your friends tell you how to smuggle alcohol and other drinks onboard to reduce your bar bill.

You also figure out how everything works, and start comparing this cruise with your first cruise - which is always the best one. You start demanding higher quality, you complain more often, and you rate the onboard services and products lower since you now can compare them to your previous cruise experiences.

In effect, you quickly become an undesirable customer.

Our research shows very clearly the co-relation between the number of cruises you have taken and the amount of money you spend onboard. The relation is not a good one.

Carnival Cruises has been the most profitable cruise line in the world for the past 23 consecutive years.

Why is that?

Because they do NOT want you to come back after taking your first cruise with them.

Better to have you complaining and saving money on a competitor's ship.

Replacing you with new first-timer is far more cost effective.

Holland America Line has the highest percentage of return cruisers in the industry.

They also have one of the worst financial records in the industry.

Their frequent cruisers don't spend any money at all onboard their ships.

This is a sad state of affairs for any business, as it allows us to get lazy with the first-timers, and gives us little incentive to improve the product.

It also forces a company like HAL to alienate the loyal return customers in order to make room for the first-timers who can bring profitability.

I read the thread above, and I'm not too sure what the situation is regarding chlorination of the pools . Regardless of the source of the water used (i.e. sea water, desalinated sea water, or other), is chlorine always added? :confused:

 

I'm not worried about the salt content it's the chlorine content that I'm interested in!

 

That is, please can you let me known whether the pools on these ships are:

 

(1) always chlorinated

(2) never chlorinated

(3) it depending on the source of the water used, if so please explain when they are chlorinated.

 

Thanks!! :)

 

 

M

All ship's swimming pools are treated according to very strict regulations from the US Public Health Service.

Fresh water pools are always chlorinated.

Salt water pools are never chlorinated. The water is dumped every 24 hours or so and replaced by new salt water.

As you said "Uuugghhhh, not quite correct."

 

Recent technologies on many newer ships now use waste heat from the engines to distill salt water at zero additional fuel costs. This is called "flash evaporation". The waste heat evaporates the water which is then collected and treated with appropriate chemicals to make it drinkable, both for taste and health reasons. The residual salt is collected and safely disposed of once at the dock. This results in cost savings over buying water from an on shore source.

Still not quite correct.

I am now on a newer ship that uses "waste heat" from the engines for flash evaporation. But none of that heat is wasted anymore. So if we use that heat for distilling water, we cannot use it to create steam for the laundry and galley, or to make hot water for showers.

We only have enough "waste heat" for distillation or steam and hot water production when we are running more than 3 engines. That means we can only distill water or heat your shower water on high speed runs. Our company - like the others - is making every effort to reduce high speed runs to an absolute minimum. On some itineraries we have only one or two of these opportunities, which will not allow us to produce enough fresh water - or steam or hot water - that we need.

When we make fresh water onboard with engine heat, we are forced to fire up the boilers to make steam and hot water - which requires expensive fuel. One way or another, we have to pay for it. With fuel prices still climbing, it is far less expensive in most ports to buy water rather than making it at sea.

When I lived in Singapore we called it "Disneyland with the death penalty". If you enjoyed the movie, 'The Truman Show", you will love Singapore.

When I lived in Hong Kong, we called it "China for beginners". It's still that way - although China is much more fun - and more interesting.

The Princess 14 night Caribbean cruises are now two seven day cruises. And the nine night cruises are now a combined five and four night cruise.

 

Why has Princess abandoned the long cruise market in the Caribbean?

 

Also, the Hawaii cruises are 15 nights, but now only go to four ports compared to the five ports that they did a few years ago. Even Carnival has a five port, 15 night cruise to Hawaii.

 

What is up with Princess marketing?

What is up with Princess Marketing?

They are making more money for the company.

Cruise lines today only make profits from onboard spending.

People who book 14-day cruises spend the same amount of money onboard (on average) as those who book 7-day cruises.

One 14-day cruise split into two 7-day cruises results in doubling onboard revenues without doubling costs.

Hawaii cruises have even more challenges. High fuel costs, high port charges, and very frugal passengers sailing from the West Coast already reduce profits there.

Reducing one port call:

1. Reduces port costs.

2. Reduces sailing speed, actually reducing fuel costs.

3. Forces passengers to spend money onboard instead of ashore.

All the Carnival Corp companies - Princess included - have a policy that ALL cabins must be sold before a cruise begins. They do this successfully on nearly every sailing.

The average passenger cabin on every mass market cruise is sold 8 times before the actual occupant arrives.

If your ship has 1,200 cabins, they actually have to sell 9,600 cabins before every cruise begins.

Consider that the cruise lines are marketing to the entire world, those unsold cabins you mentioned could all be sold before you finish reading this post.

You should go to the Japan Railways English Language site and look into one, two, or three-day JR rail passes. They are a great bargain for non-Japanese.

You can book a seat on the Shinkansen (bullet train) for early morning departure from Tokyo Station or Shinagawa Station, and be in Hiroshima before Noon.

Spend the day sightseeing, shopping, have a late lunch, get back on the Shinkansen in the evening and get back to your Tokyo hotel at a reasonable hour.

This works for most of the major cities in Japan.

I always use the deadbolt when I'm in the room alone. Hmmmm. Hopefully someone on this board can enlighten us whether the deadbolt hampers the use of the pass key.

On almost every cruise ship, the deadbolt stops a magnetic master key.

A few Senior Officers and Security Officers carry metal master keys that can override a deadbolt in cases of emergency.

How about the other way around? We will be staying in Tokyo (near the station), and need to get to our ship. We'd rather not spend tons of money on a cab... Options?

From Tokyo Station, you can take Narita Express to Yokohama Station. This is a fast comfortable train that has luggage storage at the end of each train car. All seats are reserved. Your hotel can help you book tickets.

From Yokohama Station, a taxi can take you to the Osanbashi Cruise Terminal in about 10 minutes.

Or you can take JR or a subway from Tokyo Station to Shibuya Station.

From Shibuya Station, the Minato-Mirai subway line will take you to Nihon Odori Station in Yokohama in 20 minutes for 260 Yen.

The Nihon Odori station is 2 streets away from the Osanbashi Cruise Terminal. You can walk it in about 10 minutes.

Ocean Terminal is not so much a cruise terminal as it is a shopping mall that has ships parked outside. There are 2 main pedestrian entrances at the end of the terminal closest to the Star Ferry Terminal.

But embarking and disembarking passengers usually collect / drop off bags at the other end (the ocean end) of the terminal. This is also where most of the taxis and cars queue to pick you up. There are many porters and trolleys at this end as well.

If the Luxury lines are still building smaller ships, why not one or two at HAL?

 

Many cannot afford the Luxury prices and can afford the Maasdam and other smaller ship prices. There must be a small- ship niche, in mid-price cruising, which HAL can continue to fill.

 

It seems odd that many cruise lines want to herd everyone on to the huge ships. The idea of 4,000 passengers in a port is absurd, IMHO.

 

Hope HAL will fix all the problems on the smaller ships soon OR order new smaller ships.

 

If the life of a cruise ship is about 30 years- it seems that something needs to be done to save the smaller ships.

You may have heard me - or seen me - mention that in the Cruise Industry, "IT IS ALWAYS ABOUT THE MONEY".

The luxury lines are still building a few new small ships - and they are all still losing money on them.

Currently the smallest cruise ship that can make a profit - at ANY price point - must carry over 2,000 passengers.

You may notice that HAL has 9 ships that are smaller than 2,000 passengers. HAL is one of the poorest financial performers under the Carnival umbrella.

Why does it seem odd to you that "many cruise lines want to herd everyone on to the huge ships"??

Those huge ships are legal licenses to print money.

Do you also find it odd that the airlines want to herd everyone on to the new jumbo and super jumbo jets that are so financially successful?

Why would a cruise line spend a fortune to save an old small ship that cannot ever again make a profit, when nearly the same investment would build a big new ship that makes huge profits?

Doesn't take a financial genius to answer that question.

Bruce, One flaw in the short health forms, given to passengers at embarkation, is that it does not indicate what you say. So most passengers, even if ill, will lie on the forms since they figure that telling the truth would deny them boarding. If the forms had a statement that said that "most ill passengers would be allowed to board, but receive appropriate treatment" your employer and other lines might get a little more honesty.

 

Many folks fear the unknown, and admitting (on those forms) to being ill plunges folks into the unknown :)

 

Hank

Hank,

Excellent point.

That form is designed and mandated by US Public Health.

Getting them to change it - even in the slightest - would require an act of Congress, or something similar.

Good luck on that one.

I was just wondering why recently most cruise lines have been providing ridiculously expensive flights for their cruises eg. I was looking at a Disney Magic 7 night Mediterranean cruise for 2 adults 2 kids (I like the cruise equivalent of window shopping :p) and the cruise itself was about £3000 (about $5000) but flights were... now get ready for this, this was for flights from LONDON to BARCELONA. 2 1/2 hours on a plane... the flights themselves were just over £7000. That's $11700 approximately :eek:. A lovely 7 night Carnival Dream cruise... about £900 for the cruise (about $1500) and I can't remember the price, but I remember thinking "... WHAT?! THAT'S RIDICULOUS!", and it wasn't in the good way. The thing is with Carnival, you can either not be able to get flights from the UK, or they're unbelieveably expensive.

The only line I know really to provide low cost or included flights is P&O cruises, are there any like that in the US and Canada?

 

Just wondering...

Would you buy a cruise from an airline?

I wouldn't.

Why would anyone buy a flight from a cruise line?

We are not a travel agency.

The airlines have recently decided that the cruise lines are competing directly against them for the tourist dollar. The very last thing they want to do is let you believe that a total cruise package (air included) is a better deal than a flight and a land-based vacation.

Those old sweetheart contracts we had with the major airlines are pretty much a thing of the past.

It is always a better idea to book your own air for a cruise.

Even if you do manage to get a good deal through the cruise line, you can expect the worst seats and the worst itinerary.

What you present is totally inaccurate and an invalid comparison. The typical cruise is how long? A week? Your figuring doesn't adjust for this. Also, only outbreaks above 3% of pax are posted by CDC, so your figuring is not based on total cases.

You also need to work on your facts.

CDC requires us to report even a single case of suspected NLV on our ships. But a special outbreak report must be submitted whenever the total number of affected pax AND CREW exceeds 2% - not 3% of total people onboard. The CDC does not post every single reported case, but their yearly totals include EVERY recorded case on EVERY ship. These cases are confirmed by twice yearly surprise audits on our ships.

So how many people on land get sick from what they call the "Stomach flu" or the "3-day Flu" or the "Winter Vomiting Illness", and telephone the local health department to report their illness? I seriously doubt that even 50% of people do this. Most just stay at home for 3 or more days, recover, and go back to their normal lives. There is no auditing system in place on land, and the majority of real cases there go unreported and uncounted.

Prices for 3rd and 4th passengers in a cabin have everything to do with shortages - but not in the way you might guess.

First you need to realize that in the cruise industry - EVERYTHING IS ABOUT THE MONEY.

Now that we all know that fact, we can move on.

Cruise lines do not especially like 3rd and 4th passengers in a cabin.

Why?

Because they are usually children.

Children do not drink, do not gamble, do not go to the spa, and quite often do not tip.

We don't make any profit from having them onboard.

Their parents, more often than not, do not have very much money either. They spent most of their money on the kids - before the cruise started.

Cruise lines that are having (low) occupancy problems are the only ones that give lower rates to 3rd and 4th berths - only because they must in order to fill their cabins. A cabin filled with low spenders is better than an empty cabin.

The rest of us (Disney excepted) go to sometimes extraordinary lengths to keep those 3rd and 4th beds empty, and the first 2 beds occupied by people who are able to spend more money.

I only buy the best.

The German and Japanese Carbon Fiber / Titanium armoured bags are ultra-light and nearly indestructible.

They cost me about US$1,000 per bag. But even though I fly a half million miles every year, they last several years.

By the way, they have never been lost or stolen in over 30 years intensive travel.

We could take your theory a step further.

The USA is the source of Norwalk Virus. It was discovered in Norwalk Ohio, USA.

Far more Americans have Norwalk every year than any other country.

Visiting the USA substantially increases my chances of getting it.

If I visit America and get NLV, shouldn't the US Government give me a financial break on my hotel, medical costs, and air tickets?

I have concluded why cruise ships are so often struck with Norovirus; and even more often in down economic times. Please share and comment on these thoughts to help change current regulations.....

 

- The cruise ship industry's current cancellation policy is 100% dis-incentivizing passengers from not boarding ships due to spreadable illnesses at the risk of 100% fare loss. Example: If I had the stomach virus today and was planning on boarding a cruise tomorrow - knowing these bugs typically last somewhere between 24 and 48 hours it is in my best financial interest to board the cruise and tough it out the next 24 hours. Alternatively I could be honest and tell the line(with doctor proof) that I have a active bug and reschedule the cruise but essentially this path will cost me my full $4000 fair if I didn't take insurance.

 

How ridiculous is this?!?! Thousands of people's cruises are being ruined all to often and I think the cruise lines are not helping the matter by having such firm cancellation policies in place regardless of doctor recommendation. Wouldn't it make more sense for the line to actually INCENT ill passengers from boarding the boat to avoid rapid wildfire like spread of transferable illnesses?

There is only one flaw in your theory.

Most major cruise lines DO allow passengers to board and sail if they are having NLV symptoms. They are isolated for about 48 - 72 hours (depending on symptoms) and then finish their cruise.

The CDC estimates that approximately 60 passengers with NLV board EVERY cruise departing a US port. It is not the Black Plague. It is a simple virus - much like a cold or the flu.