rbt001

I am saying that this is one of those ridiculous arguments where people on the same side all start arguing with each other because they aren’t listening to what anyone is saying.

 

Which gives the rest of us a great laugh. :)

 

It’s been lots of fun.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And you mean a great laugh AT rather than WITH, correct?

So you are saying that I finally convinced them and they are changing their tunes? :D:D:D:D:D

Not at all: KeithJenner is stating that you were preaching to the choir, arguing with them on a point where they shared your same position.

Perhaps if you were to read posts a few times before turning to your keyboard, you'd fare better.

You are still making an invalid assumption that part of the DSC goes to NCL. See reply above.

May I sincerely suggest that you SLOW DOWN with your quest to hit the million postings mark. I'm pretty sure that this is the third time you have misread or misunderstood something I've posted. Additionally there are other posted comments that you've misinterpreted.

Literally, all of the DSC goes to NCL --as opposed to Carnival, Royal, or any other competitor-- since NCL assesses and collects this fee. And I have maintained throughout this entire thread and another of the subject that NCL uses this as a labor offset.

We did have some buffet fare at lunch that was tepid. We survived it. Thankfully, it was only Curly Fries.

The struggle is real.

Steam, thanks for quoting MizDemeanor's post.

I missed it the first time and it's too funny! I'm still chuckling.

MizDemeanor, hats off for the post and your screen name. Thank you.

Maybe requesting warm syrup and drawn butter are the solution for waffles, pancakes and french toast.

GUEST TICKET CONTRACT

 

© Service Charges: Certain members of Carrier’s crew are compensated by a combination of salary

and incentive programs that are funded in part by the service charge paid by each Guest. The charge ,

which is automatically added to your onboard account and subject to adjustment at your discretion, is

intended to reward service provided in all departments and job categories and is distributed to employees

according to Carrier's evaluation of job performance. A portion of the service charge collected by Carrier

is also used for fleet-wide crew welfare programs.

 

 

Since "a portion" of the service charge goes to fleet-wide crew welfare programs, that means that 100% can't possibly go to the incentive programs.

 

Salary portion (percentage) + Incentive program portion (percentage) + Fleet-wide crew welfare portion (percentage) = 100%. The salary, incentive, and welfare portions MUST each be less than 100%.

Bingo!

I've quoted the FAQ on this subject and pointed out several times that it is NOT just for incentive programs, that the language provides for support of crew salaries. And I've followed through by stating the daily service charge is a labor cost offset.

Here you point out where the contract also mentions crew welfare programs, which by accounting standards are part of labor costs.

SeaShark, I'll set the table, could you please let Maniacal Cruiser know dinner is served. The crow is coming out of the oven.

It’s very easy to remove the extra fee. Once we pay our fare, why would we donate our hard earned money to a billion dollar corporation so it could pay its employees?

Ever wonder why the service charge keeps increasing? Aside from inflation, I'd guess it's in part because of the number of posts where passengers decide to remove the service charge just for the heck of it, rather than supporting NCL's fare and compensation structure.

I've added to my "To Do" list a note to compose a letter to NCL citing several of these posts and suggesting it's time to modify the policy surrounding alterations to the daily service charge. From reading NCL's website, the intent of reducing the DSC is related to service failures that cannot be resolved on board when brought to the attention of leadership on board.

Maybe it's time for leadership to take control of those adjustments and allow the decision to adjust to lie solely with leadership.

On those rare occasions a service failure occurs, NCL on board leadership can assess the situation and act accordingly.

For frivolous complaints: a simple "Sorry to hear that, do hope the rest of the cruise turns out fine," should be dismissive enough.

They would pay those labor cost whether the DSC was a segregated fund or was co-mingled into the cruise fare. The fact it is segregated is purely an accounting issue. Setting up a specific DSC is nothing more than accounting/audit control to identify the funds upon collection.

Incorrect.

It's more of a marketing issue in that base fares are published at lower rates, making them seem more competitive and attractive.

Having an accounting background, I can tell you that if it were simply about accounting, there's a way to accomplish allocations without the need for a separate line item on guest accounts, making it transparent to guests.

If you want the answer just look to Australia. Royal Caribbean, Carnival and Princess charge NO gratuities to Australian guests on Australian cruises. Instead, our cruise fare is higher, and the crews wages are higher.

 

Taxes and fees are also incorporated. So for us, the price you see is the price you pay, and that's it, no additional charges.

 

In the end, it all works out the same.

Yes, it seems some of the lines have adapted their pricing policy to the local culture. As someone else pointed out, in both Australia and the United Kingdom (and I'm sure other countries) the price is expected to be the price.

.

In the USA, it's just not the case and it can be frustrating to some.

The frustration airline passengers experienced with this issue was met with legislation a few years back. It used to be that one could click excitedly on the $180 fare they thought was a great deal-- only to find that after taxes, fees, charges, etc. the bottom line was close to twice the price. Now, airlines must display the "all-inclusive" price up front.

Will cruise lines follow? Probably not-- unless there is legislation.

By the way, that daily fee had to be added because so many cheap pax left the ship without tipping.

The purpose of these boards is to educate everyone, not just the person starting the thread.

 

The automatic gratuity started MANY years ago. Guessing over half the people on these board know of nothing else.

 

If you feel anyone is specifically following your posts, fine. Just don't count me in this small group.

No need to follow my postings, just read them and others, to avoid making misstatements.

Lastly, consider starting a post with words other than:

One other thing Cozmic206. If you get any drinks onboard before the ship leaves port, or before it gets into international waters, you will be charged the state tax on the drink. Many times it is less than a dollar per drink, but it is an added charge.

 

You can tell when you are in international waters, it is when the casino opens.

monl765: Good catch!

Reminds me of a cruise last year where I had a drink at the bar right outside the main dining room which hadn't quite opened yet on embarkation day.

A few days later, when I was reviewing my room account I saw a charge for $74. What???!!! At Guest Services they were able to provide me with a copy of the check which showed my name and room number. But it also said "Not-swiped" and there wasn't a signature. Whew!

Cozmic206, Not sure how it happened, but mistakes like that, though rare, are easily corrected if you bring it to their attention. Just periodically check your account, which can be viewed on your cabin TV.

Also, if you're on a mega-ship, show reservations can be critical. I got shut out of one the the two shows, as it was sold out. I learned after the fact that I could have arrived as a "stand-by" and probably gotten a seat. But if you like to schedule and structure your itinerary, then make them in advance.

After just reading the above, why am I reminded of my childhood days in school and that one student the teachers just gave up on? A teachers aid, tutors, nothing worked.

As students we, too, learned to ignore the occasional incoherent outbursts. We focused on our reading and comprehension skills.

So that today when we read something that appears inaccurate, such as false claims about NCL's service charge, we learned in school how to do research, how to read and comprehend what NCL has written concerning the reason for the service charge. When we read this:

Staff members including complimentary restaurant staff, stateroom stewards and behind-the-scenes support staff are compensated by a combination of salary and incentive programs that your service charge supports.

we easily comprehend that our service charge is used towards labor costs.

Me and my fellow classmates learned the difference between a "service charge" that's imposed and a "discretionary charge" that's optional. In fact, that was a day hard to forget. Most of us were leaning forward at our desks straining to hear our teacher over the gurgling and nonsensical noise coming from the one helpless student. But we got it. We learned our lesson that day.

Yes, I used to wonder what happened to that one, babbling mess of a student.

But I don't have to anymore.

You can read into anything whatever you want. If it makes you feel happy to believe that something underhanded is going on, then by all means keep believing that. Please let me know what address I should use to ship your tin foil hat.

Just as you misinterpreted the FAQ regarding DSC as I've already pointed, you really botched it to believe I feel there's something underhanded going on.

I fully understand DSC is a labor cost offset for NCL.

I also fully understand that how NCL compensates their employees is a matter between NCL and their employees.

I trust NCL to treat their employees fairly and believe that they do so.

This is confusing to me as we did select the free at sea unlimited beverage package and also paid the prepaid service charge however it says the 20% gratuity is not included in the service charge. So you're saying it is? And if we have the unlimited drink package throughout the cruise we will not be charged gratuity?

Here's a breakdown of different charges:

• Cruise fare based upon cabin you selected
  
• Port charges and government taxes
  
• Cost of Beverage Package plus 20% Gratuity
  
• Cost of Specialty Dining Package plus 20% Gratuity
  
• Daily Service Charge of $14.50
  

Now, if you booked during a promotion that includes a freebie, it sounds like you selected the beverage package. While the base price of the beverage package is free with the promotion, the 20% Gratuity associated with the beverage package is not. So this 20% is added to your amount due.

It doesn't sound like you received the Specialty Dining package as a freebie. You could purchase it in advance and be charged the package price, plus 20% for the gratuity.

You did mention that you pre-paid the daily service charge. Had you not, it would have appeared on your on-board room account.

With the UBP, drinks up to $15 are included. Show your card when you order, and you're all set. The staff knows that you've already paid a gratuity when you purchased the package.

Let's say that you see a $20 glass of wine that you really want to try. The UBP will cover $15 and you will receive a check to sign for $5 plus $1.00 for the 20% Gratuity and Beverage Service Charge.

What I say next is simply to make you aware of an issue so you can decide what you would like to do. The waitstaff will NOT expect any further gratuity since it's paid. However, if you are on a large ship which may have a large number of passengers with the UDP, you may notice that SOME will give the server and extra cash tip, usually a dollar. That's completely optional but can go a long way if you frequent the same bar regularly and it gets busy.

If you have viewed your ship's specialty restaurants and think you might want to try two or three, then the specialty dining package may be something to consider. It can be pre-purchased and it's base price will be marked up 20% for the Gratuity and Specialty Dining Service Charge.

If you visit the spa for a treatment. The cost of the treatment will have a 20% Gratuity and Spa Service Charged added.

Hope that helps.

Posts like this make it sound like the suite includes unlimited use of the Thermal Suite. On the Caribbean Princess April 1 sailing' date=' the deal was a one day pass that had to be on a port day for each suite guest.[/quote']

 

This must be a change because when I was last in a suite, October 2014 on Island Princess, the spa attendant placed a sticker on my card that permitted access to the Thermal Spa for the duration of the cruise.

Close. It is an accounting issue to identify the funds for the crew incentive program and not co-mingle those funds with the general cruise revenue. It is a VERY basic accounting/audit concept.

You're close, but NCL's wording and lack of punctuation allows for a broader interpretation:

Staff members including complimentary restaurant staff, stateroom stewards and behind-the-scenes support staff are compensated by a combination of salary and incentive programs that your service charge supports.

"that your service charge supports." could mean that the service charge supports both the salary and incentive programs.

By allowing for this interpretation, NCL is given greater flexibility as to the application and accounting of those funds.

Simply, the service charge collected is a labor offset.

You're ignoring my main point. If the crew only gets 10% of the DSC pot on each cruise, and the rest goes to "administrative fees" or padding salaries back in Miami, you don't care?

The operative word in your statement is IF.

What if the sun doesn't rise tomorrow?

NCL tells us it goes towards labor costs.

NCL omits all the other details because, bluntly, it's between themselves and their staff.

If you don't have faith and confidence in NCL's ability to manage and operate their cruise line, then apply to work their and make your opinions count.

Or simply choose a different cruise line to patronize-- and a different forum to haunt.

But doesn't common sense tell you that if NCL were mistreating their employees, or misappropriating funds, that employees would flock to a line where they were treated fairly?

So if on any given NCL cruise, 75% of the DSC funds went to Miami, and only 25% actually were distributed to the crew, that wouldn't bother the people who say we're "just complaining?"

 

If NCL got verify where it goes and say something like, "While the charge is discretionary, 100% of your DSC is distributed to the hard working crew who made your cruise the vacation of a lifetime."

 

If they could say that, they would, but they can't, so they don't.

Quite simply, the service charge is a way for NCL to offset the cost of labor.

That's it.

Just like airlines on occasion impose a fuel surcharge. The difference is that when airlines do this, participants on the Flyer Talk forums don't feel the need to whine and complain about it or demand to know why type of jet fuel or what brand.

I’m sailing out of NYC next week. Excellent idea. I’ll drop off my luggage at checking and go explore a little instead of waiting in the terminal.

 

Thanks!

Graphicguy, have a great cruise! When you come back, let us know if it worked out with checking the luggage and what you were able to explore.

Haha, you are so wrong and so confused. Stick your fingers in your ears and keep yelling 'I am right'.

 

The ignorance is pretty amusing.

Putting your childish tone aside, I really couldn't understand why you kept going on about a discretionary service charge when anyone with a fifth grade reading level could clearly understand what NCL says on the subject contradicts your understanding.

I see than in reality you simply have your cruise lines mixed up.

Princess Cruise Lines refers to their daily service charge as Discretionary: not Norwegian.

Since you appear lost, here's a link to find your way there:

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=197

Take care!

AND POSTING IN THAT BOLD GREEN IS JUST OBTUSE, RIGHT ?!?...:mad:

So as a matter of interest do pax on Anytime Dining have the option of removing or reducing the automatic daily gratuity?

 

We do traditional 1st sitting, so we know the policy there.:halo:

TONE: "Tongue in cheek"

Once upon a time, when cruise ships were very, very small and passenger counts were in just the hundreds per cruise, there was only ONE DINING ROOM that had an early seating and a late seating. That was enough to accommodate the ship's capacity.

And in this one dining room passengers were assigned to one table and would eat every single meal at that table, being served by the same two individuals for the entire cruise.

This a time so long ago that the InterTubes that connect all of our computers and devices today hadn't even hatched. So a frequent dinner conversation, in hushed tones so as to not be overheard by the staff, was what was the right number --per day-- to place in those tip envelopes on the final night. Some argued it should be twice what the person to their left said, while across the table one guest agreed with another table mate who felt the cruise line should just pay the staff more and he wasn't giving any envelopes. In agreement, the other passenger added that where he and his wife were from tipping was culturally unheard of.

Actually I don't remember any conversations like that when I cruised as a child with my parents. Politer society and all, I'd guess. But I do remember them discussing and preparing the envelopes for the two waitstaff and the cabin steward. EVERYONE knew, and EVERYONE presented their envelopes. That was the custom. Some had a dollar more per day than another, while some had a dollar less per day.

In today's modern cruising society we have multiple dining rooms where tables are mostly unassigned. On a 7 day cruise it's possible to be served 21 meals by 21 different crew members. That's a lot of gratuity envelopes!

So... most likely to cut down on stationery costs and the long lines that resulted as passengers waiting to obtain said envelopes, cruise lines implemented the daily service charge.

This revolutionary practice is sometimes cited as the birth of the InterTubes and bulletin boards, today known as Forums: people needed a way and a place to bicker, fight, and express their opinions about how they felt particular cruise lines should be managed an operated. In fact, the very first topic was the daily service charge.

Curse that daily service charge! Because while it was a way to fairly compensate all the staff in the buffet dining room and all the staff in Anytime Dining Rooms who never got envelopes because they only saw people once... it ultimately lead to underworld/black-market-like forums where passengers discuss ways to smuggle alcohol, denounce cruise line dress code and circumvent cruise line rules and policies.

But the GREATEST EVIL the daily service spawned was "The Miser" who thinks it's perfectly fine to eliminate the daily service charge for he and his wife on a 7 day cruise (2 x 13.50 x 7 = 182) and instead hand a $20 to the room steward and a waiter he saw a few times-- not because he felt they deserved it-- but instead to justify the removal of the DSC using the philosophy "I'll tip my way."

You have to understand the vast majority of ships sail under foreign flags. As such, they do not operate under US labor laws. Drink runners get room and board and a small stipend as payment. Their income is from the "tip" added to each drink. Stewards get a portion of the daily service charge. Right or wrong this is the system in place in the cruise industry. If you disagree with this this process, your only vote is through your wallet, don't cruise. By the way, that daily fee had to be added because so many cheap pax left the ship without tipping.

Well, well, well, your opening choice of words implies you are speaking to someone ignorant of the cruise industry when in reality the ignorance may best be seen in your reflection and choice of words.

If you read my posts, you'd know that I'm a big advocate of additional cash gratuities, as mentioned in this thread. On top of that, I've posted elsewhere that I follow the years gone by custom of envelopes, now using them for additional gratuities that are above and beyond the service charge which remains in place.

I do so as a personal choice and as a way of showing my appreciation for good service and my understanding of what goes into providing this service. By this I mean, my recognition of the 7 day work week for the 6 - 9 months of a typical contract, living in tight quarters far away from their family.

The Captain's Circle Parties -- which is the focus of this thread-- have devolved into a 45 minute event. These are house hosted events, meaning the cruise line is picking up all of the costs, including compensation to the staff passing food and serving beverages.

Having worked in the food and beverage industry for more than a decade, I can tell you that it's common practice to provide a fixed gratuity to house hosted events. Is it as generous as 20%? Perhaps not, but it's fair. And in the broader picture, the waitstaff understand that it's part of the job, they take the good with the bad.

Now, does that house compensation concept carry over to the cruise line? I don't know. And in all fairness, I think when asked that same question, you'd respond that not only don't you know, but I'll venture this is the first you've heard of the concept.

I'm pretty sure it would be a violation of company policy for a waitstaff member to answer the question as to whether they get a bump in compensation for working the party. But if I did hear "No, we do not," I can't say that I would feel all that bad.

You see, in tipped positions, one takes the good with the bad. Ideally if one could choose, they'd set their schedule to serve drinks only during a busy happy hour, pre-shows, and the two prime-time hours in the nightclub. The reality is someone has to work the opening hour in Adagio where maybe no guests show and someone has to close the nightclub. So what's the difference if some staff have to work one hour at a customer appreciation event that happens once per cruise?

Additionally, a corollary to wallet voting is voting with one's feet. This applies to the staff. Should compensation at Princess become sub par or so far askew industry norm, employees would hire on with competitors.

Finally, when was the last time you were invited as a guest to a dinner party and you felt compelled to leave a tip to the staff that served your meal? Hopefully you didn't insult your host.

The Captain's Circle Party is a 45 minute opportunity for Princess to welcome us into their home and say "thank you" for our continued patronage. It's safe to leave your wallet at your hip.

Begin to worry, however, should the Captain change his spiel and end with a shout out to the staff and reminder not to forget the hard-working staff with a tip before leaving.

Are they not included in the daily service charge ?

Yes, they are.

And Princess covers this by stating that a discretionary gratuity is added to simplify the tipping process.

Right now there are active discussions on the Norwegian board about treatment of the daily service charge which is NOT a gratuity but rather a guest charge that goes towards labor costs. Gratuities and tipping are in no way linked to their service charge.

Princess language again means that their should be no obligation to tip, unless one wishes to recognize exemplary service.

"Making ZERO" would be inaccurate.

It's difficult to get a clear shot plus mine has holes in it from when it was thumb-tacked on my wall near my desk. :cool:

 

The quote is "**Pre-Paid Gratuities, otherwise referred to as "Service Charges", applicable to 1st and 2nd guest in stateroom, age 3 & up. Not applicable to guests 3-8. Guests are responsible for onboard gratuities applicable for all other shipboard purchases.".

Even for something like a Spa pass, NCL calls the added service charge a gratuity.

 

My point is that NCL calls that "thing" by many names. Too many people on the forum argue about what to call that "thing" but NCL calls it whatever they want to call it.

 

Interestingly, back then was when guests 3-8 would automatically get the soda program when guests 1&2 got the UBP promo AND all guests in the stateroom 3 and older got the UDP (unlimited number of uses).

Thank you for quoting this.

I became interested in this topic after reading too many ridiculous postings which weren't anything more that rationalizations of false information to justify in their own minds why they feel it's acceptable to not pay the service charge.

Everything NCL publishes -- today at least -- refers to the DSC a/k/a Daily Service Charge as a guest contribution towards labor cost rather than a gratuity replacement or alternative.

While the language in the fine print may save them by pointing back to "Service Charge," calling it a Gratuity I think was a marketing mistake. I would hope that they don't do that any more and stay with "Pre-paid Service Charge"

I understand the point you are making, that NCL calls the "Daily Service Charge" by many names. Or at least they used to. It seems that more recently they realize the confusion that it causes and are moving towards uniformity.

Separate from the Service Charge is their position on "Gratuities".

With respect to gratuities, NCL states this-- in a section completely separate from the service charge discussion:

Additionally, there is an 20% gratuity and spa service charge added for all spa and salon services, as well as an 20% gratuity and beverage service charge added for all beverage purchases and an 20% gratuity and specialty service charge added to all specialty restaurant dining and entertainment based dining.

Common language is: "20% gratuity and _____ service charge"

Each of these items listed are specific service charges.

I wonder how many passengers have been successful in altering or eliminating a particular 20% service charge of this nature?

Did they use:

"I never tip that much, so you only get 15%"

"NCL can't tell me how to tip people, so take it off."

"It's purely discretionary, so remove it."

"I don't have to give a reason, just eliminate it."

Did any work?

The implication is that these service charges are gratuities. But nowhere does it state that the full amount will be paid out and to whom.