rbt001

In a word, yes. There is no logical reason the cruise fare could not be used to offset their labor costs and provide an incentive program. So why tack on a service charge as opposed to just include in the cruise fare?

It’s basically a gotcha addition to the base fare. It’s like Spirit charging people for carry on and to check bags. They know full well the vast majority of their customers will check or carry on.

 

In my opinion these pricing games cheapen a company’s brand.

 

It doesn’t matter that other cruise lines do the same thing. It’s still a nickel and diming business model, which I (personally) find cheap.

 

 

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I agree with you regarding perception. And your mention of Spirit airlines is a good example. I'd never fly them with their practices which can actually add up to more than other carriers.

Long before "food for purchase," back when all the airlines provided meals to coach passengers.... an innovative new airline intended to revolutionize air travel: People Express. Everything was a la carte. Ticket prices were low enough to attract individuals who otherwise couldn't afford to fly. They were the first airline to charge a fee to check luggage.

Funniest thing when I traveled on a college trip with a group was the mortified flight attendant relating to a fellow FA what a passenger had just asked her: "Will I need a dime or a quarter for the lavatory?" No, they didn't go that far.

But the point is that breaking the service charge out is a way to keep fares lower and competitive.

As a publicly traded company, the written, public representations they make wrt the Daily Service Charge need to be accurate.

You are correct.

And little is said other than what I've already quoted. As long as the DSC is used to support salary and incentive programs, then they are doing as they publicly state.

The Discretionary Service Charge serves many purposes for NCL. The main purpose being revenue generation. A nickel here, a dime there. Right out of your pocket.

According to published NCL material, your statement is inaccurate.

"Discretionary Service Charge" is not a concept or practice at NCL.

Speculation about the purposes of something that is non-existent is fruitless.

That's implying every single eligible crew member gets paid out of the DSC on every single sailing.

 

Perhaps that's the case, but I doubt it? What if you only get a bonus if you say get....10 hero cards in a week, and only 10% of the MDR waiters and cabin stewards get that many cards?

Perhaps it is the case:

staff are compensated by a combination of salary and incentive programs that your service charge supports.

Everyone is at least earning a salary, and the careful language NCL uses allows for interpretation to include salaries.

NCL is clear to the point that they publish that the daily service charge is used to offset labor costs.

From their website:

Why is there a service charge?

The reason there's a fixed service charge is an important one: Our Crew (as are the crew from other lines) is encouraged to work together as a team. Staff members including complimentary restaurant staff, stateroom stewards and behind-the-scenes support staff are compensated by a combination of salary and incentive programs that your service charge supports. How much is the charge? Onboard Service Charges are additional.

In particular:

staff are compensated by a combination of salary and incentive programs that your service charge supports.

That's it. The DSC is NOT a gratuity or tip. It's money collected which is directed towards salary and incentive programs.

This is common practice across cruise lines. On this subject I have read in posts documents from other lines that refer to this as a way of simplifying tipping, including a breakout of who gets what by position.

This is not what NCL does. And I believe there are other lines (Princess and perhaps other Carnival Corp brands) that use incentive programs rather than direct tipping out.

According to Wiki, NCL Escape can hold 4,266 passengers and 1,733 crew.

Not perfect, as there are different DSC rates, but using the current basic DSC:

4266 x 13.50 / 1733 = 33.23 daily. The question becomes, do you think NCL compensates ON AVERAGE more than $33.23 per day per crew member?

Hard question to answer, since for the average it would cover everyone from Captain down to unskilled positions.

My guess is that ALL labor compensation exceeds the total collected for DSC's. That makes it very easy for NCL to be accurate and truthful in their statement that DSC supports salary and incentive programs.

There are many things that are unknown about the specific disposition of the DSC that we will probably never know.

The one thing that we do know with certainty is the NCL --like other lines that use a similar method-- doesn't think it's any of the passenger's business; the details remain confidential. And NCL has never asked passengers how we feel they should administer their program.

So... to the topic and question raised...

about "...a scheme to artificially decrease the base cruise fare?"

NO, simply because of the question's wording.

Perhaps semantics, but more accurately:

the daily service charge is a method to help prevent an INCREASE in the base cruise fare.

I got this directly from NCL in 2015...

 

Can you take a picture of the fine print explanation with the two asterisks?

One of the problems is that NCL uses the terms "Gratuities" and "Services Charges" in their promotions.....

 

 

 

...so there is no point in arguing what that "thing" (DSC) is called.

Actually there is. The first ad that you reference is from a third party website, a travel agency. If you go back to Google images, click on the ad and then click the visit website button, you will see.

The second ad is from NCL which references Free Pre-Paid Services Charges.

Yes, but ask most crew and they will tell you that on embarkation day the Club Class Dining Room is actually up in Horizon Court... as special corner!

Interesting that you felt compelled to note that you are 'elite'...:evilsmile:

and thus 'earned' the 'right' to make sure everyone knows it , huh?...:rolleyes:

 

get the hat...:evilsmile:

While it may risk adding a few months to your therapy, I will share that I'm an Elite member as well.

Let me go on to say that leading up to my first cruise with the coveted status I found online a Princess ELITE Package for purchase that included:

• Elite pin that glowed in the dark.
  
• Banner to mount of the cabin door proclaiming ELITE STATUS in flashing lights
  
• Downloadable music file compatible with most smartphones. This two minute clip features dramatic symphonic music with a choir that chants "Your Elite! Your Elite! All hail to the Elite!"
  
• Four hand held flags reading "ELITE" to be distributed to your travel mates so they can waive them as you walk at your side and you play the music clip.
  
• Available in the premium version only- a computer hack that taps into the MUTS screen and presents a 5 minute tribute to you and your ELITE status.
  
• Available in the Smuggler's Version, the hand held flag posts are actually water proof cylinders capable of holding 16 oz. of the liquid of your choice.
  
• Available in the Formal Version is either a smart black cocktail dress tailored with an ELITE motif, or Men's Blazer and matching tie depicting the ELITE motif.
  

How sad the day I learned it had been discontinued! Completely Sold Out!

And so THAT's the primary reason why if we are Elite, we feel we have to mention it.

It also explains why we still go to these parties. Now that you are in the know... look around... and when the Circle Host recognizes us.... look for the ones like me that you see close our eyes with a with a smile on our face as we shudder and tingle inside.

If Princess invites me to a "party" in recognition of my loyalty to their product, IMO, I should be able to order whatever drink I want and not have to indulge in the batch mixed beverages being served. Yes, we do tip and tip well, but needing to drop cash to get a particular drink at this event doesn't sit well for me.

 

At one time we were able to request a real cosmo or chairman; neither of us like the fruit punch based drinks. I still remember when we were offered a nice assortment of hot/cold appetizers. Lat time we attended one of these events, we spotted a few servers and what they had on their trays didn't look appealing, more like reheated dough balls. The cut backs are all about revenue.

 

...

 

Darcy

I agree with you on this... and I think at heart Princess intends to present the party as a "thank you for your loyalty." Sadly it seems, the quest for profitability has "watered down" the party overall, notably in food cuts and party time: the traditionally hour long event is now just 45 minutes.

On the subject of the tips.... I recall for my father's wake, we hired caterers and near the beginning one of my younger sister's friends told the bartender: "You know, if you place a glass on the bar and put a dollar in it like this, you'll earn more tips..." to which I stated: "Well, my family appreciates that everyone took the time to come remember my dad, and we've made arrangements to take care of everything, including the gratuity for the service staff. And that's why there isn't a tip jar on the bar."

A good host will take care of everything, and I'm sure that Princess does.

With respect to the Circle parties... a few things are at play here.

Usually there's a line that forms up to 30 minutes before the event starts, and it moves slow with the greetings.

So I wait and arrive a good 15 minutes after it starts, when there's no line.

By the evening of the party, my routine has already been established with those servers that have been enjoying that $1 tip with every drink late afternoons during the PES Happy Hour. In fact, many have said: "l'll look for you tomorrow night during the circle party."

So when I arrive to the full room --crowded with guests and servers working to fill all the special orders-- I walk near the bar and the moment a server in line spots me, they know what to add to their order with the bartenders before I even have to ask.

Related, someone else suggested we should tip because "they are making zero," which is not entirely true.

Brits & Aussies who are not used to tipping, at this event you won't be snubbed for not tipping. Just note that in the time you had to contemplate tipping and brand it a bribe, while waiting for your drink... I was already served mine.

I agree that French toast, waffles, and pancakes don’t stay warm long in the buffet. Don’t know any way around that because warming trays dry them out and they still get lukewarm. OP’s contention that food sits around for hours is flat out wrong as is the conclusion that NCL practices poor food safety practices. So, my advice is to avoid the small percentage of buffet food that doesn’t hold heat or go to a dining room for it.

 

 

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My post follows yours and we probably were typing and thinking the same things based upon what we wrote.

You beat me because mine took longer to edit, as I had to find a better way of saying what I said and avoid the word "ignorant."

It seems every ship going serves good that is as close to cold if not actually cold that you can get. Last week I was happy to see a fresh pan of French toast going on the buffet line. "At last," I thought, "It has to be warm now!" But there was NO warmth to it. It seems you can only get a warm meal if you go into a pay for meal. Clearly the food is made hours before use and just sits around. Let's talk food-borne illness.

When you made your comment: Let's talk food-borne illness.

Are you simply sharing your thoughts with us on the next thread you're going to start?

Or were you trying to lead people to a conclusion that ignores food safety and sanitation practices?

How familiar are YOU with food safety and sanitation?

Are you aware that on passenger cruise lines that food safety and sanitation is arguably one of the ship's greatest concerns?

Clearly, if you did have any training and knowledge, I think you wouldn't make such statements.

As for hot food... many subsequent posts seem to disagree with you. But I can personally say that I don't like French toast, waffles or pancakes that can't melt the butter I apply.

Two simple suggestions.

First, when ORDERING food that will be served to you, state: "I'd like HOT ______" If your server gives you a puzzled look, explain that in the past it has arrived cold or not hot enough. Typically you'll get the extra attention to ensure your food is hot. Biggest culprit is french fries.

Second, ASK at the buffet line for something you want hotter. They will make it and bring it to you.

Addressing your issue on board at the time gets better results than turning to CC with a post which seems at least to me to resonate with bitterness.

Until they run a promotion with 'free gratuities'. Then all of a sudden the Discretionary Service Charge is a tip. That promotion has run often and NCL clearly admits, like back in 2000, the Discretionary Service Charge is a tip.

NCL has never run a "free gratuities" promotion with respect to the daily service charge that is the subject of this thread.

There are plenty of third party sites that incorrectly refer to NCL's carefully worded promotions as free gratuities, while NCL refers to it as "Free Pre-paid Service Charges"

In the English language, tips and gratuities are discretionary while service charges are imposed and mandatory.

So the erroneous expression "Discretionary Service Charge" is a contradiction in terms. DSC stands for Daily Service Charge.

So Based on this - Celebrity thinks a Butler should be tipped $3.50 per day and the Concierge $4.09. Does anyone know if the NCL Butlers do more or less than the Celebrity Butlers?

Just note that what Celebrity publishes is much different than how NCL treats their daily service charge on.

Celebrity specifically states they make it easier to tip and they give you the breakout.

NCL does not and NCL does not imply that the service charge is a tip or gratuity.

Specifically NCL states that the daily service charge is money used towards their labor costs for salary and incentive compensation programs.

Thanks, but that didn't answer my question. A discretionary charge doesn't mean they will apply it, or when that charge is bookmarked from (what day of sailing).

No, it didn't answer your question.

Is there some reason why you don't just pick up the telephone and call NCL to ask them directly?

Typically, it seems to me, these forums on CC are primarily for:

• circumvention of policy- how to smuggle liquor on board or food off while in port
  
• revision of policy- "I shouldn't have to pay the DSC for my 3 y/o because..."
  
• evasion of policy- "Non-refundable OBC has to be used, but I did this...."
  

Let us know what you find out.

First you pay on average double for the suite then they want to hit you for more money with the fake daily service charge. But you do have a choice, while NCL try to hide it the simple fact it is these fees are discretionary, you can change or remove.

 

The policy:

 

If there is a service issue can the service charges be adjusted on board?

Guest satisfaction is the highest priority at Norwegian Cruise Line. We have structured a guest satisfaction programme designed to handle any concerns about service or on-board product quickly and efficiently. However, in the event a service issue should arise during your cruise please let our on-board guest services desk staff know right away, so that we can address these in a timely manner. It is our goal to reach a satisfactory solution to any issue when it happens and make sure our guests can focus on enjoying their cruise. Should your concerns not be met with satisfaction you can adjust the charges.

As the last lines says "Should your concern s not be met to your satisfaction you can adjust the charges" The simple fact here is you do not need to give them a reason or you can, if you want but you can adjust to zero and nothing they can do about it.

NCL can and will try to use strong arming and intimidation if they think they can get away with it. My last few cruises with them, Guest Services has contacted me and asked if I want the fees removed. They have a past file because on principle I have always paid my own gratuities as I see fit. Even knowing in advance I remove these fees they still take the reservations and accept the bookings why? Because they cannot under the account and system they use make daily service fees mandatory.

While redundant, I have pasted the Q&A again from NCL's website without any emphasis added.

If there is a service issue can the service charges be adjusted on board?

Guest satisfaction is the highest priority at Norwegian Cruise Line. We have structured a guest satisfaction program designed to handle any concerns about service or on-board product quickly and efficiently. However, in the event a service issue should arise during your cruise please let our on-board guest services desk staff know right away, so that we can address these in a timely manner. It is our goal to reach a satisfactory solution to any issue when it happens and make sure our guests can focus on enjoying their cruise. Should your concerns not be met with satisfaction you can adjust the charges.

In an earlier post in this thread I pasted the Q&A NCL provides regarding the service charge. Essentially, the service charge is money collected to help offset NCL's labor cost. And part of that labor cost are incentive programs (plural, as I re-read it) that we can only guess are tied to better/higher performance on the part of the crew.

So now let's focus on ADJUSTMENTS to the service charge.

First, notice that NCL doesn't simply state REMOVAL of the service charge.

Ask 100 people who are familiar with the NCL cruise experience to restate that paragraph, and I'd bet the vast majority would say something along the lines of:

• At NCL we really want passengers to enjoy their cruise.
  

• We have officers, managers, and supervisors trained to immediately react when they see something that could go wrong, and fix it.
  

• But if we miss something and you're unhappy, tell us right away, and
  

• Give us a chance to make it right, so you are happy.
  

• If we can't, then we can adjust your service charge.
  

The spirit of the policy seems to be adjustments should be the last resort when a problem can't be fixed.

Also, it really doesn't seem there's a provision for removing the DSC because I passenger wants to "tip" their way.

The DSC is a per passenger assessment for labor. And that bears similarity to a "fuel surcharge" airlines impose on a ticket price-- only there's no airline form to remove the fuel surcharge.

NCL appears to allow the DSC to become a negotiating tool should something get messed up that they can't fix.

But it doesn't appear that NCL has provisions to remove the DSC in protest of NCL's policies and decisions regarding compensation.

Now, regarding this statement:

The simple fact here is you do not need to give them a reason or you can, if you want but you can adjust to zero and nothing they can do about it.

There is one simple thing NCL can do. And that's to change the policy on adjustments. Close the loophole that you are exploiting.

Instead, make adjustments to be "at the discretion" of NCL. Then, if something really gets messed up for a guest that can't be fixed, NCL can decide on the appropriate adjustment.

So when someone says "take it off, I'll tip my way." No, sorry but the DSC is not a form of gratuity, subject to substitutions. It's an important part of a structured incentive program. The fee was disclosed in all documents prior to sailing.

Or someone says "take it off because I smelled cigarette smoke when I walked through the casino and it ruined my whole cruise." No, sorry to hear about that. Hope it's better next time.

Will NCL change the policy? Probably not. I'd guess the exploiters represent an insignificant number.

Sorry that is not really a answer. You pay more for the suite so you have already paid for the services. It is no different then flying business class, I pay more for the fare and get get higher levels of service and comfort.

Yes, it is very different than your airline business class analogy.

Airlines do not add a DAILY SERVICE CHARGE.

Airlines and cruise lines charge different fares based upon class of service on the airline or class of cabin on the cruise line. Each may have it's own level of service as you note. However, most cruise lines add a daily service charge whereas airlines do not.

DSC does not mean DISCRETIONARY service charge, and to believe so demonstrates a complete lack of understanding.

In fact, it's amazing to what great lengths cruisers will go to in distorting and twisting reality with their rationalizations to clear their conscience when they conclude that it's perfectly acceptable to eliminate the service charge.

Perhaps it's time to go right back to the source, NCL to get an explanation. From their website:

Why is there a service charge?

The reason there's a fixed service charge is an important one: Our Crew (as are the crew from other lines) is encouraged to work together as a team. Staff members including complimentary restaurant staff, stateroom stewards and behind-the-scenes support staff are compensated by a combination of salary and incentive programs that your service charge supports.

In plain language, NCL tells us:

• certain positions have two parts to their cash compensation
  
• one part of the compensation is what the line pays them for simply showing up and performing their duties
  
• one part of the compensation is variable because it's part of an incentive program.
  
• no details regarding the incentive program are provided to passengers.
  
• no details regarding all of the positions that participate in the incentive program are provided to passengers.
  
• Other lines besides NCL provide incentive programs for crew.
  
• The service charge is used to fund the incentive program.
  

Logical inferences from the NCL published information are:

• NCL considers the details of their incentive compensation program to be confidential information to be shared only with participants and administrators of the program.
  
• NCL has established clear and measurable goals which allow all participants to determine whether or not they will receive incentive pay and how much.
  
• While NCL has developed their own incentive program, it most likely shares similarities with incentive programs in place with their competitors.
  
• NCL considers their incentive program to be fair and competitive.
  
• Internally the program is promoted as a WIN-WIN-WIN Proposition. When goals are met:
  
  • Passengers are happy as measured by positive post-cruise surveys and "hero" cards.
    
  • Crew are happy with incentive payouts
    
  • Line enjoys higher profit margins.
    

  [*]NCL does not consult with or solicit input from passengers regarding the design of their compensation program just as they never consult passengers on the design and layout of controls on the bridge.

So back to the topic of this thread and the $3.00 difference....

We may never know because NCL doesn't feel the need to share it with us.

Can we speculate and validate this difference? Yes. A number of people in this thread had provided plausible reasons. Some, all or none could be correct. Noone yet has suggested that perhaps the incentives for Suite/The Haven crew are more generous or simply different that other positions that participate. Maybe or maybe not.

Again, NCL has not felt the need to consult, explain or justify the inter workings of their incentive program.

There's an old expression: "Sit back, relax, and let the driving to us."

And as it clear says anyone can opt out of the payment. Why does it say this? Because they need to make it appear to be a tip and not a servcie fee which it is.

So you said earlier that NCL has tagged your profile because you have a history of removing the DSC. What if NCL started to share that information with the staff

Imagine when you hand your card to the hostess at a MDR, it's swiped and her screen flashes to her: "GUEST ALWAYS REMOVES DSC"

When she seats your party at a poor table after a prolonged wait, stating it's the best table they have right now. Next she ensures your wait staff are aware you're the habitual DSC remover.

Service is slow because the server coded your order: "GUEST ALWAYS REMOVES DSC" Behind the scenes your plates for food service aren't as clean most guest receive. And perhaps the cooks add to your dish a flavor most other guests don't have the pleasure...

And in your room you noticed your sheets and towels didn't seem as fresh and clean.

Would you complain?

And what would you say when the response was: "Well, to compensate you, we'll just remove the DSC. Oh, look! It's been removed already. Enjoy your cruise!"

Perhaps this is the very way the NCL will take their stance to prove their point as to the importance of DSC.

To many posters are missing a very important point here.

 

Mainline cruise companies why not just make the daily service fee mandatory?

 

Why do they all have a way that guest can remove them?

 

This is very easy to do, "All passengers are subject to a additional daily charge of x dollars"

 

The reason you can remove them is they are calling these fees guest gratuities and handling them that way in account, which also allows them to reduce and take fees from these charges, to charged all cost against these fees. So if a dollar goes in after creative accounting 75, 50, 25 cents comes out.

 

They will not make mandatory because they want to play on the kindness of passengers and keep this money off the company income. They do not want to show higher pay rates for staff they want to use the system to keep the cost as low as they can. It is a fraud against the guest and the crew in part because they do not ever say how this money is divided.

 

Many here think I am anti daily gratuity fees out of cheapness.... sorry not the case.... I do not like or want to be part of a system that hurts people..... the daily gratuity service charge is in fact hurting the very people most guest want to help.

 

It is the responsibility of the to fairly pay the staffs, these polices will go the same way as companies stores and company factory towns went in America. The cruise lines do this because every extra dollar they can take of the top is millions in added profits. The CEO of NCL said a few years ago every dollar he can save in costs results in 15 million dollars profit.

 

If you really care about crews you would remove these fees and tip as you believe correct. If more passengers did this the system would change.

Who remembers whether Jim Jones said is was a refreshing grape flavor or a delicious cherry flavor?

I wish they would do it worldwide. One reason is that some posters from countries where it is included are booking through US TA's, where it is not included, so they can remove the DSC and then their price is better. Sad!

Sad, indeed. But proves a scammer will always find a way.

rbt001;

Appreciate the response. Apparently I'm not being clear enough in my post. Again, the sole purpose was to post the OPINION of a veteran cruiser with 2 NCL cruises completed. IMHO, EPIC was well below Escape in terms of food and food quality. based on our Escape cruise we know NCL can do better. I wholly agree with Frank Del Rio's comment after taking over the helm of NCL that "people don't cruise for crappy food". It is quite possible that others dining on the same ship at a different time had a different experience than us but I reported what I saw. We're back to the NCL sister line, Oceania, this summer then trying MSC in Yacht Club. I will add my comparison of Haven and YC after that.

I will look forward to the Haven & Yacht Club comparison. Thank you.

So a woman signs up with a cruise line, is exploited and sexually abused, and a CC poster replies that "It's obvious that she was naïve."

 

I think we have a new record.

Yes, she was naive to expect glamour and luxury for herself as she worked on the cruise ship.

Or do you, too, believe the crew works 9 to 5 with paid holidays and sick leave?

INSIDE SCOOP: when the heavy water tight doors shut guest entry to the spa at night, it's NOT so we can't hear all the employees laughing it up as the get manicures and massages after hours at discounted rates.

I notice you did not link to the same video with comments enabled where all the cruise line employees called BS on this story.

I'd appreciate a link to one with comments. Didn't know there was a different one and I sure will read what's said by other crew members.

So a woman signs up with a cruise line, is exploited and sexually abused, and a CC poster replies that "It's obvious that she was naïve."

 

I think we have a new record.

Watch the video before you comment.

I should have cleared up that she selected "charged words" to give her take on the situation and make her point about conditions aboard ship as an employee.

She felt "exploited" because she was made to work long hours every day of her contract without a day off.

Point is: what she felt was labor exploitation is another crew member's dream job.

Meg actually has some pretty good videos about crew life, she did it for a few years and vblogged about it while on board:

https://www.youtube.com/user/itsmegsface/videos

 

Michelle Tim has some really good perks of the job here (and mentions why those ratings matter so much):

 

Here is her collection of videos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/m1chelletim/videos

 

 

So yes, some undercover reporter discovered something, your point? Why do these other people keep re-upping their contracts for new ones?

Because enough of us leave the DSC in place and provide decent additional gratuities? Maybe?

Seriously, for a moment, while looking for that video, I did view a few others that make this all a matter of perspective.

Contracts in some cases are re-upped because it's a great opportunity compared to what's available at home in their country.

I watched two videos by USA residents who had worked on cruise lines. The first "Coffee with Sean" is a single guy that packed all his stuff in his parents basement free of charge and worked two contracts of 6 months each in a somewhat skilled position in Audio/Visual for the entertainment. He seemed happy that he was able to save about $10,000 each of two contracts that combined covered a year. He points out it was possible only because he had no expenses, that in reality he earned little.

The other was a USA citizen, female, who was recruited out of college. She used words to describe her experience including: exploitation, abuse, sexual abuse, etc. Somehow she expected glamour and luxury, it seems. It's obvious that she was naive. And that's my point: the majority of cruise passengers don't fully understand what's going on behind the scene to make the passenger experience enjoyable.