Concordia News: Please Post Here

[sidari]

Costa had either approved previous "fly by salutes" and/or had prior knowledge of them and failed to ban them.

 

Uni ... I think that certain people did know about them but chose to turn a blind eye, and when asked about them they came up with the old Ronnie Reagan "search Me" answer and some were even allowed to quietly move to other areas in the cruise industry. I believe other companies would have also denied any knowledge of what was going on in order to protect their product as we have seen with Carnival.

 

"In addition, the chaotic safety muster and abandon ship procedures demonstrated a lack of proper or sufficient safety instruction and training"

From the top down i have to agree but with regard to those staff standing waiting for the abandon ship order they were clearly trained and told to do exactly that.

 

Myself i would have had a lifeboat launched and not waited for such an order even having worked in an industry that was militarised in its organisation common sense dictates and tells you when something is not right. Then again there is a difference in being paid to think and being paid to do as you are told.

Edited February 24, 2014 by sidari

[Uniall]

Costa had either approved previous "fly by salutes" and/or had prior knowledge of them and failed to ban them.

 

Uni ... I think that certain people did know about them but chose to turn a blind eye, and when asked about them they came up with the old Ronnie Reagan "search Me" answer and some were even allowed to quietly move to other areas in the cruise industry. I believe other companies would have also denied any knowledge of what was going on in order to protect their product as we have seen with Carnival.

 

"In addition, the chaotic safety muster and abandon ship procedures demonstrated a lack of proper or sufficient safety instruction and training"

From the top down i have to agree but with regard to those staff standing waiting for the abandon ship order they were clearly trained and told to do exactly that.

 

Myself i would have had a lifeboat launched and not waited for such an order even having worked in an industry that was militarised in its organisation common sense dictates and tells you when something is not right. Then again there is a difference in being paid to think and being paid to do as you are told.

 

Sid

 

Once again, I have to reiterate the legal concepts involved.

 

"I did not know" is not a legal defense.

 

The general rule is "Knew or should have known" and is apllied even moe stringently when coupled with the rule of "Respodent Superior" (an employee whom you hired and cloaked with great authority to act in your name).

 

The "should have known" rule kicks in the moment any significant warning or alert of improper activities of the high powered subordinate reaches the superior.

 

The superior then is under an affirmative duty to ascertain the facts and stop improper activity.

 

Otherwise, the superior becomes co-liable for the activities of the subordinate.

 

John

Edited February 24, 2014 by Uniall

[swedish weave]

Sid

 

Once again, I have to reiterate the legal concepts involved.

 

"I did not know" is not a legal defense.

 

The general rule is "Knew or should have known" and is apllied even moe stringently when coupled with the rule of "Respodent Superior" (an employee whom you hired and cloaked with great authority to act in your name).

 

The "should have known" rule kicks in the moment any significant warning or alert of improper activities of the high powered subordinate reaches the superior.

 

The superior then is under an affirmative duty to ascertain the facts and stop improper activity.

 

Otherwise, the superior becomes co-liable for the activities of the subordinate.

 

John

`'

 

 

The legal comcepts are fine when you want to blame the deepest pockets you can find.

 

The logic is that Captain Schettino had sailed ships for Costa for quite some time without putting any of them on the rocks until the Concordia incident.

 

To try to shift the blame to anyone else for his stupid act is not logical.

[Uniall]

`'

 

 

The legal comcepts are fine when you want to blame the deepest pockets you can find.

 

The logic is that Captain Schettino had sailed ships for Costa for quite some time without putting any of them on the rocks until the Concordia incident.

 

To try to shift the blame to anyone else for his stupid act is not logical.

 

Who is shifting blame? Not me!

 

I'm trying very hard to explain the intellectual and logical concepts of law. The modern "It's All About Me" generational view of shared blame acting as a shift of blame, was not and is not the RULE Law.

 

The Rule of Law imposes blame on all purpetrators of efficient causes of a result.

 

There is NO LEGAL DOUBT that Costa SHARES blame for the tragedy as a contributing effecient cause. That does not and can not diminish Captain Coward's role as the primary effecient cause.

[swedish weave]

Who is shifting blame? Not me!

 

I'm trying very hard to explain the intellectual and logical concepts of law. The modern "It's All About Me" generational view of shared blame acting as a shift of blame, was not and is not the RULE Law.

 

The Rule of Law imposes blame on all purpetrators of efficient causes of a result.

 

There is NO LEGAL DOUBT that Costa SHARES blame for the tragedy as a contributing effecient cause. That does not and can not diminish Captain Coward's role as the primary effecient cause.

 

To quote your previous post : The superior then is under an affirmative duty to ascertain the facts and stop improper activity.

 

Can anyone explain how anyone superior to Schettino could have determined in advance that his actions would cause the ship to run aground and stop the activity in advance ?? Bear in mind that he had never put a ship in the rocks prior to this.

[Uniall]

To quote your previous post : The superior then is under an affirmative duty to ascertain the facts and stop improper activity.

 

Can anyone explain how anyone superior to Schettino could have determined in advance that his actions would cause the ship to run aground and stop the activity in advance ?? Bear in mind that he had never put a ship in the rocks prior to this.

 

 

The first step to understanding western European Law is to forget the Star War's Myth that knowledge comes from feelings called "The Force".

 

The proper way to "think" (not feel) is to use Aristotillian (Aristotle the Pagan), Thomistic (St Thomas Aquinas the Catholic) and Maimondic(Maimondies the Jew) LOGIC.

 

I I hire someone to represent ME and give him the power to act in my name as my agent, I am liable for any damage or harm he does due to negligence because I trusted him enough to act for me.

 

If that person causes damage or harm by crime, I become co liable if I knew or should have known his propensity for such action. The duty to investigate increases in proportion the authority I've given the employee and the potential for harm he can cause.

 

It is not the running aground that was the negligent AND criminal cause of the deaths and sinking. The cause was deviating from the prescribed course for a fly by salute near the shore. He had done it before and Costa did not ban the practice or reprimand him.

 

Sadly, in today's modern world very few people take responsibility for their actions. My wife was principal (headmistress) of a Chicago High School with 3500 students. She delights in telling the tale of a student involved in a fight defending himself by saying: "I didn't cut him, My knife did."

 

In the final analysis, the law does not contenance situational ethics that has been adopted by society in the 21st century.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Uniall

[swedish weave]

The first step to understanding western European Law is to forget the Star War's Myth that knowledge comes from feelings called "The Force".

 

The proper way to "think" (not feel) is to use Aristotillian (Aristotle the Pagan), Thomistic (St Thomas Aquinas the Catholic) and Maimondic(Maimondies the Jew) LOGIC.

 

I I hire someone to represent ME and give him the power to act in my name as my agent, I am liable for any damage or harm he does due to negligence because I trusted him enough to act for me.

 

If that person causes damage or harm by crime, I become co liable if I knew or should have known his propensity for such action. The duty to investigate increases in proportion the authority I've given the employee and the potential for harm he can cause.

 

It is not the running aground that was the negligent AND criminal cause of the deaths and sinking. The cause was deviating from the prescribed course for a fly by salute near the shore. He had done it before and Costa did not ban the practice or reprimand him.

 

Sadly, in today's modern world very few people take responsibility for their actions. My wife was principal (headmistress) of a Chicago High School with 3500 students. She delights in telling the tale of a student involved in a fight defending himself by saying: "I didn't cut him, My knife did."

 

In the final analysis, the law does not contenance situational ethics that has been adopted by society in the 21st century.

 

What portion of the responsibility lies with the Government agency who issued Schettino a license to operate a vessel? If none, why ??

[sidari]

Costa knew that sailbys were going on, they knew because they had previously sanctioned at least one that is known about with the same ship.

 

Video evidence ia available on you tube.

[Uniall]

What portion of the responsibility lies with the Government agency who issued Schettino a license to operate a vessel? If none, why ??

 

The Master's license is issued based upon education, training and experience. But, that has absolutely nothing to do with legal liability.

 

 

You seem not to understand my explanation of western law's concept of Respondent superior (Employer Employee).

A trucking company is laible for ALL damages caused by the negligence of their truck drivers.

They are also laible for damage caused by criminal conduct of their drivers if they knew (or should have known) of the driver's propensity for such activity, like history of drunk driving.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Uniall

[swedish weave]

The Master's license is issued based upon education, training and experience. But, that has absolutely nothing to do with legal liability.

 

 

You seem not to understand my explanation of western law's concept of Respondent superior (Employer Employee).

A trucking company is laible for ALL damages caused by the negligence of their truck drivers.

They are also laible for damage caused by criminal conduct of their drivers if they knew (or should have known) of the driver's propensity for such activity, like history of drunk driving.

 

In layman's terms, the legal profession has managed to shift responsibility to the "deep pockets" for larger profits.

[Mike.Minh]

In layman's terms, the legal profession has managed to shift responsibility to the "deep pockets" for larger profits.

 

Gotta jump by the side of uniall here:

 

What you just wrote is a strange view (or perhaps a very uninformed view) about

• the legal profession
  
• responsibility
  
• deep pockets
  
• shifting
  
• profits
  

 

Don't take this as being kicked unfairly, I just fail to see where we could even begin to explain.

[sidari]

Schettino to go back onboard Concordia on Thursday.

 

http://www.seatrade-insider.com/news/news-headlines/captain-to-go-back-on-concordia-costa-officials-reportedly-under-investigation.html

[sidari]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2569166/Costa-Concordia-captain-returns-vessel-time-bid-avoid-jail-manslaughter.html

[Uniall]

Captain Schittino has been offered a Ship's Master position by a Maritime Salvage & Demolition Company.

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/QYltdonj2iE?wmode=transparent&rel=0&autohide=1&showinfo=0&enablejsapi=1

[jimdalva]

Captain Schittino has been offered a Ship's Master position by a Maritime Salvage & Demolition Company.

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/QYltdonj2iE?wmode=transparent&rel=0&autohide=1&showinfo=0&enablejsapi=1

 

WOW I can't believe you same guys are still over here debating this.

However this video was worth the trip over here to check on things.

[Uniall]

WOW I can't believe you same guys are still over here debating this.

However this video was worth the trip over here to check on things.

 

We ain't goin home till the "Fat Lady Judge" sings and gives Schittino 20 years ............. ;)

 

Glad you liked the video :D

 

John

[SomeBeach]

My DH and I are survivors of the Concordia. We returned to Giglio about a month ago and spent two days there. We met some of the locals and they are amazing and friendly people! We met some true heroes of January 13-14, 2012. A fact that was never publicized by any news article that I read afterward (and I read most of them, I think) was revealed to us when we were there. Several of the local men watched as the Costa Concordia crew got out of the lifeboats when the passengers did, as they arrived at the pier that night. At least 4 of these men got on board the lifeboats and the one man in particular that we spoke to, told us that he made 5 trips back and forth to the ship, picking up passengers and he also pulled many people from the water that night!!! I was totally in awe of this man and his friends. There would have been many more fatalities had it not been for their actions and bravery! This little known fact has got to be made known and these men should be publicly recognized! I am not sure that is what they want as they just felt it was something that they could do to help. We watched from the pier, as the lifeboats returned to the ship and assumed that it was Costa Concordia crew manning them but that was not the case!

Just an interesting news item for everyone to ponder!! I hugged our new friend and there were tears streaming down my cheeks as I thanked him on behalf of all the survivors!! Wow!!!!

That was about the most emotional part of our return to the island for sure!! Just wanted to share with you folks that are still posting items and thank you for your continued interest in this piece of history!

We completed our visit to Italy with a Mediterranean cruise aboard the Norwegian Jade and we had a fabulous time!! So thankful to be back aboard a ship and enjoying cruising!:D

 

QT, thank you for coming back to tell us about your time on Giglio. Also, happy to read that you and DH had a most enjoyable cruise. Hope you have many more in your future.

 

Now John, how can you possibly think Schettino was at the controls? One, the ship remained upright. Two, I didn't see anyone jump, fall, or stumble off the ship.

 

Sidari, thanks for the link. I had no idea that Schettino was allowed to return to Giglio.

 

Not quite sure why Schettino is worried about people knowing he is a gentleman and not a coward, as he mentioned to a reporter. Proving he is a gentleman does not take away from the fact that he set a course that led to a terrible tragedy. Proving he is not a coward does not take away from the fact that whilst others returned time and again to the ship to help rescue people, he did nothing but argue with the CG on a phone.

 

I will admit very early on I gave him a benefit of doubt thinking he was in shock. His attitude in early interviews and hearing the recordings from both the Bridge and the CG changed how I felt. I don't believe he intentionally set off to cause a tragedy but when it happened his actions seemed more centered on himself ("My career is over") than the passengers he was responsible for.

[Hebersgyll]

Captain Schittino has been offered a Ship's Master position by a Maritime Salvage & Demolition Company.

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/QYltdonj2iE?wmode=transparent&rel=0&autohide=1&showinfo=0&enablejsapi=1

 

Can't think of anyone better qualified for the position, but will they hold the job open until he's served his time in clink? And will he continue to specialise on the demolition aspects of the post?

[paulrobs]

Captain Schittino has been offered a Ship's Master position by a Maritime Salvage & Demolition Company.

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/QYltdonj2iE?wmode=transparent&rel=0&autohide=1&showinfo=0&enablejsapi=1

 

He'd be pretty good at this, no question. Get a few ladies on the bridge too and he'd be in his element!!!

[GranysT]

I wonder if he felt any shame, to step back on board what was once a beautiful ship?

[Uniall]

I wonder if he felt any shame, to step back on board what was once a beautiful ship?

 

Very doubtful that Schitino feels any shame or guilt about anything. I sent many like him away for long term all expenses a paid vactions.

 

He exhibits all the classical attributes of a sociopath who is incapable of feeling any shame or guilt for any of his actions. The only remorse they can feel is for themselves for having been caught.

[SomeBeach]

Schettino had plenty of protection on his recent return to Giglio. One resident wanted to make sure Schettino got his message. He hung a large sign that translates to "National Shame."

 

Tried to bring the link from the Giglio website but it didn't work.

Edited March 3, 2014 by SomeBeach

[qtlikeme]

I am deeply saddened to once again read that passengers died in the elevators that night. If the crew knew that the emergency generators were not working, why did someone not force open the elevators and rescue the ones that were trapped in the hour before the evacuation was called!! Sounds like lots of time to investigate whether anyone was trapped and manually smash open the elevators!!! It is not a widely publicized fact that some were trapped and ultimately died there, but this article when translated seems to state this detail! It gives me shivers to think how terrifying it would have been to be trapped in an elevator and ultimately drown there!

 

 

http://dreamblog.it/2014/03/03/concordia-tendine-bloccate-il-giallo-sulla-nave-ora-e-nel-locale-dge/

[Uniall]

I am deeply saddened to once again read that passengers died in the elevators that night. If the crew knew that the emergency generators were not working, why did someone not force open the elevators and rescue the ones that were trapped in the hour before the evacuation was called!! Sounds like lots of time to investigate whether anyone was trapped and manually smash open the elevators!!! It is not a widely publicized fact that some were trapped and ultimately died there, but this article when translated seems to state this detail! It gives me shivers to think how terrifying it would have been to be trapped in an elevator and ultimately drown there!

 

 

http://dreamblog.it/2014/03/03/concordia-tendine-bloccate-il-giallo-sulla-nave-ora-e-nel-locale-dge/

 

The answer to your query is simple and also the height of self centered egotism. Following the grounding the prmary efforts were to save the Captain's career and marriage and not the saving of the passengers and crew.

[sidari]

qtlikeme .... It is very possible that the lift/elevator was stopped in a position that was not visible to other people and and with no light there would be no way of knowing they were there, plus there would have been hundreds of people making noise and all heading to the outside and the last thing on their minds would have been whether anyone was in the lifts/elevators.

 

Questions arise as to whether staff could or should have checked and even then they would have been hampered by the lifts/elevators brake system, unless you know how to work, lower or raise one depending on where the balance block is then there would have been little chance of these people being rescued as sad as it was.

 

If they were at a landing level then they may have had a chance of someone hearing or seeing them and depending on age and fitness they probably would not have been able to climb out.