Happy Casino Player

[riddle]

I have seen a lot of questions as to how cruise ship casinos compare to land casinos. I have been to Vegas several times, Mississippi, Indiana and Tennessee casinos. The ship casinos definitely do not compare (going on the Epic in Nov. and am sure it will be closer).

 

However, that being said, when I travel to a land based casino and spend the night I spend the entire night mainly in the casino. This can run through a lot of cash. I think the big advantage of the cruise casinos is that even though the odds are not as good there are so many other things to do that you do not need to stay in the casino all evening.

 

To me the casino is a part of the cruise, but there are so many other things I enjoy that it will not consume me. I do love, though, just walking down the hall to the casino if the urge hits.

 

We enjoy CAS booking, free drink cards, points redemption and the general ambience of the casino. Hey and it is generally not over 100 degrees outside.

[Sizzlechest]

I think the big advantage of the cruise casinos is that even though the odds are not as good there are so many other things to do that you do not need to stay in the casino all evening.

 

Are the slot machine odds known (or even regulated) on cruise ships? At least you can be safe that the other types of games like blackjack, roulette, etc. are easy to calculate.

 

On the Star, there are some older slot machines, but I actually prefer them. I ran into a 3 reel mechanical single line $1 machine. Mechanical reels have limits to the number of items per reel while electronic ones can be as big as the designers imagination. The less reels and lines means the pay cycle is shorter. All these newfangled 45 line penny machines with their 6-8 reels with who knows how many entries per reel have pay cycles so big, it's rare to have a good run very often.

 

BTW, I did have a good time playing the $1 roulette machine using the "Dopey Experiment." At worse, you lose $35 and it takes a while unlike the slots.

[gizmo911]

What is the "Dopey Experiement"

[Sizzlechest]

What is the "Dopey Experiement"

 

Let's assume the minimum bet is $1, which it is on the Roulette machine NCL offers. You pick a number on the roulette wheel (0, 00, 1, ..., 36) and play that number 35 times in a row. There's better than a 60% chance that your number will come up at least once. If it comes up once, you will break even. More than once, you win. Of course, you can choose to quit at any time. If your number doesn't come up once, you lose 35 times the minimum bet. In this case, it's $35 and takes a while to do. Not a bad way to spend time in the casino and minimize your risks of losing.

[VideoTech]

Are the slot machine odds known (or even regulated) on cruise ships? At least you can be safe that the other types of games like blackjack, roulette, etc. are easy to calculate.

 

No, the payback percentage is not known for slot machines on ships, but then it's not ever known for any machine in a land based casino either (except for Video Poker machines). In general, it's safe to say that the payback percentages on ships are much lower than on land...after all, you're a captive audience and so there's less of a need to return as much of your money to you to keep you playing.

 

And no, ship based casinos are not regulated, as far as I know. However, the operating practices tend to be the same as those of land based casinos.

 

 

On the Star, there are some older slot machines, but I actually prefer them. I ran into a 3 reel mechanical single line $1 machine. Mechanical reels have limits to the number of items per reel while electronic ones can be as big as the designers imagination. The less reels and lines means the pay cycle is shorter. All these newfangled 45 line penny machines with their 6-8 reels with who knows how many entries per reel have pay cycles so big, it's rare to have a good run very often.

 

Of course, there is no "pay cycle" as such, if I understand what you mean by that. Each and every spin of a slot machine is it's own unique play, and is not influenced by the spin before or the spin after, or how many times the machine has paid out or not.

 

If by pay cycle you mean the number of winning combinations that are programmed into the machine, there's not much difference between a 3 reel mechanical machine and a 6 reel video machine. Yes, the physical number of possible symbol combinations is greater on the 6 reel machine, but in fact that's not important. The machine is programmed to have enough results to guarantee the yield to the casino that is desired, and to maintain the player experience desired. So many of the additional symbol combinations available on a 6 reel machine are simply programmed with the same win or loss result as many of the other symbol combinations on that same machine, and the overall number of results, expressed as a percentage of wins and losses for you, is the same. If both the 6 reel machine and the 3 reel machine payback 92%, then the number of additional combinations or stops makes no difference.

 

For more information on why this is true, read here, and here.

 

BTW, I did have a good time playing the $1 roulette machine using the "Dopey Experiment." At worse, you lose $35 and it takes a while unlike the slots.

[boopsahoy]

We go to Atlantic City about 2x a month and love to gamble. When we cruise its a cruise and a casino trip to us. We spend A LOT of time in the casino especially on seas days. If you see us at a show it means we are losing lol I love the perks though from Casino at Sea,weve had free rooms for the past 5 or so years and last year and this year we were able to upgrade to a suite because of this YESSSSSS!:D

[Sizzlechest]

No, the payback percentage is not known for slot machines on ships, but then it's not ever known for any machine in a land based casino either (except for Video Poker machines).

 

That's not exactly true. There are minimum payback percentages that are regulated by the state. There are also market forces that drive casinos to offer slot machines with better payback percentages, too. For whatever reason, slot payout percentages in Atlantic City are usually very close to the regulation minimum (approx 83% I think?) while Las Vegas slots usually pay out 97%-99%. This can be calculated and is not an unknowable number.

 

In general, it's safe to say that the payback percentages on ships are much lower than on land...after all, you're a captive audience and so there's less of a need to return as much of your money to you to keep you playing.

 

That's one possibility. It's also possible that many of the people who cruise aren't hard core gamblers, so they don't care as much about soaking them as providing an entertainment. This isn't to say the slots will be in the guests favor. It's just that maybe the percentages are closer to Vegas than Atlantic city.

 

Of course, there is no "pay cycle" as such, if I understand what you mean by that. Each and every spin of a slot machine is it's own unique play, and is not influenced by the spin before or the spin after, or how many times the machine has paid out or not.

 

No, there's no "rubber band" effect to "fix" the outcome. For people reading this who may not understand what we mean, imaging you flipped a fair coin 100 times and it came up heads 60 times. What is the expected number of heads ourcome if I flip it another 100 times? Some people may think it's 40 to equalize the deviation from the first 100 flips. Nope. Every flip has a 50-50 chance and is independent of the flips that preceded. So if a slot machine seems "hot" or "cold," it will have no effect on the outcome of the subsequent spins.

 

What the pay cycle can possibly influence is the volatility of the game. The chances of a good or bad run may be smoothed out. (The real reason the casinos like the multiple lines is for the people who don't bet the max. The payout percentage is based on max play, so anyone not betting the max gets screwed. The 45-line penny slot abominations just expanded on this idea to get people who are bad at math to play higher stakes. Offer a single line dollar machine and people avoid it because it's too expensive. Offer a 45 line penny machine with a 3 coin per line max bet and the "cheapskates" love it. $1.35 > $1)

[zepher95]

I've often wondered whether the ship will change their odds on slots as the cruise progresses. We definitely are not gamblers, but like playing the $.25 slots occasionally and if we go in the casino the first night and lose $20 each in 15 minutes and never have a single win, which seems to happen all to often, we don't step foot back in the casino the rest of the cruise. We aren't there to win money, just have a little fun, but let me lose my $20 in an hour of play and at least I'll be back several times. I know we aren't exactly the target the casino is after, but seems the cruise line would allow more of a chance to win occasionally on the minimal cost slots and maybe we'd be spending more money in the casino overall, and enjoying the overall cruise experience as well.

[Sizzlechest]

I've often wondered whether the ship will change their odds on slots as the cruise progresses. We definitely are not gamblers, but like playing the $.25 slots occasionally and if we go in the casino the first night and lose $20 each in 15 minutes and never have a single win, which seems to happen all to often, we don't step foot back in the casino the rest of the cruise. We aren't there to win money, just have a little fun, but let me lose my $20 in an hour of play and at least I'll be back several times. I know we aren't exactly the target the casino is after, but seems the cruise line would allow more of a chance to win occasionally on the minimal cost slots and maybe we'd be spending more money in the casino overall, and enjoying the overall cruise experience as well.

 

That's funny you say that. My wife and I each bought the $50 slot credit for $25. We played the slots about 4 times and we won 3 out of those 4 times and came out ahead. I'm no fan of slot machines but if someone is going to give me fifty cents on the dollar to play, I'll jump at it. I can't extrapolate my limited experiences on the ship's casino, but I do wonder if there may be some unconventional things going on. For example, I know the whole "the hottest slot machines are on the ends so people can see them win" is a myth. I wouldn't expect a professional casino manager doing it, but I have to wonder if the people who do it for the cruise ships buy into that kind of stuff.

[VideoTech]

I've often wondered whether the ship will change their odds on slots as the cruise progresses. We definitely are not gamblers, but like playing the $.25 slots occasionally and if we go in the casino the first night and lose $20 each in 15 minutes and never have a single win, which seems to happen all to often, we don't step foot back in the casino the rest of the cruise. We aren't there to win money, just have a little fun, but let me lose my $20 in an hour of play and at least I'll be back several times. I know we aren't exactly the target the casino is after, but seems the cruise line would allow more of a chance to win occasionally on the minimal cost slots and maybe we'd be spending more money in the casino overall, and enjoying the overall cruise experience as well.

 

That's funny you say that. My wife and I each bought the $50 slot credit for $25. We played the slots about 4 times and we won 3 out of those 4 times and came out ahead. I'm no fan of slot machines but if someone is going to give me fifty cents on the dollar to play, I'll jump at it. I can't extrapolate my limited experiences on the ship's casino, but I do wonder if there may be some unconventional things going on. For example, I know the whole "the hottest slot machines are on the ends so people can see them win" is a myth. I wouldn't expect a professional casino manager doing it, but I have to wonder if the people who do it for the cruise ships buy into that kind of stuff.

 

No, the payback percentages (not the odds, although they never change either) on the machines are not changed from day to day, hour to hour, at the beginning or end of the cruise, or in response to any other whim of the casino.

 

Each and every spin of the machine is an independent trial, and you are as likely to win on one spin as the next. You are as likely to win two jackpots in a row on the same day, as none at all for weeks or months or years.

 

Regarding the common myth that casinos change the payback percentage as needed: First of all, land based casinos are prohibited by regulations from doing this. Ship casinos are not regulated, so they could legally do this if they wanted, but the process is not easy. On older machines, it involves opening the machine, taking out one computer chip, and putting in another. On newer software based machines, the machine still has to be opened by the slot technician, and the software programming changed.

 

There is a new type of server-based slot machine, where in the machine programming can be changed from a central server, and the machine does not have to be opened up to do this. These machines have only just reached the bigger casinos in Vegas and elsewhere, and are not yet being used on ship's casinos, to my knowledge.

 

But even if they could easily do this, casinos have no need of doing it. The house edge works in their favor on each and every bet. Each time you pull the lever or press the button, the house collects their share. It doesn't matter how many jackpots they pay out in a day or an hour, they'll still make their money over the long term. They wouldn't be in business otherwise.

 

With the right mix of machines on the floor, and the right settings of payback percentages, the casino manager can tell you almost exactly what his profit margin will be over time. There may be variables up or down in each hour or day, but, unlike the stock market, the casino manager is assured that his investment will always make money. Always.

 

So why would they scare off their customers by tampering with a sure thing? What do you think would happen if it became generally known that the casino's machines payed out on the first day, but not on the last two days? No one would play on the last two days, would they?

 

No, casinos will continue to rely on the house edge to make their money, and you'll continue to play for the fun of it, hoping, just this once, that you'll hit the big one. And sometimes you will....that's the fun of it.

[VideoTech]

That's not exactly true. There are minimum payback percentages that are regulated by the state. There are also market forces that drive casinos to offer slot machines with better payback percentages, too. For whatever reason, slot payout percentages in Atlantic City are usually very close to the regulation minimum (approx 83% I think?) while Las Vegas slots usually pay out 97%-99%. This can be calculated and is not an unknowable number. [/Quote]

 

Agreed, I should have been more specific. It is true that the minimum percentages are published for land based casinos. What I meant was that it is mostly impossible, for the average player, to know the payback percentage of any one machine he or she is going to play.

 

Yes, it is possible to calculate the payback percentage for a slot machine, using the laborious methods employed by the Wizard of Odds in the link I gave in my post. But this is not generally something anyone would care to do on a regular basis...I certainly wouldn't.

 

And yes, of course the payback percentages are market driven. The casinos set up their mix of machines to reach their targets, but they have to consider that they need to keep the gamblers playing to reach those targets. This is exactly why the ships payback less than the land casinos.

 

In any case, you're obviously an educated gambler, and I don't mean to preach to educated gamblers. Often the same questions are asked by those who don't know much about gambling, and that's who I try to reach out to. I believe that if you're going to gamble with your money, you should be educated about it, and try to make the best use of that money - of course, you also have to play something you enjoy, even if it isn't the best paying game around. But education about how the machines work can't hurt!

[kato92]

For whatever reason, slot payout percentages in Atlantic City are usually very close to the regulation minimum (approx 83% I think?) while Las Vegas slots usually pay out 97%-99%. This can be calculated and is not an unknowable number.

 

 

Your comparison numbers are not even close...latest figures ending July 2011.....

All Slot Machines

The Strip - 92.65%

Downtown - 93.57%

Boulder Strip - 94.76%

N. Las Vegas - 94.03%

--------------------------------------------------------------

Atlantic city

 

 

 

CASINO

PAYOUT %

Harrah’s

92.4

Tropicana

92.1

Trump Plaza

92.0

Trump’s Marina

91.9

Sands

91.9

A.C. Hilton

91.8

Caesars

91.8

Bally’s Park Place

91.8

Trump Taj Mahal

91.7

Claridge

91.1

Showboat

91.0

Resorts

90.6

[Sizzlechest]

It's been a while since I've been to either AC or Vegas. Wow. AC must really be hurting if they're up to the 90's. I'm more surprised about Vegas. Years ago, many casinos would advertize their payout percentage being close to 100%.

[kato92]

It's been a while since I've been to either AC or Vegas. Wow. AC must really be hurting if they're up to the 90's. I'm more surprised about Vegas. Years ago, many casinos would advertize their payout percentage being close to 100%.

 

Atlantic City is hurting. The Vegas ads were generally about a group of machines or a row of machins as opposed to the whole industry.

[VideoTech]

It's been a while since I've been to either AC or Vegas. Wow. AC must really be hurting if they're up to the 90's. I'm more surprised about Vegas. Years ago, many casinos would advertize their payout percentage being close to 100%.

 

Overall, payback levels at most casinos have been in the low 90's for years. It seems an odd thing to me, but as the player pool dries up due to the bad economy, the casinos seem to *lower* their payback. You'd think they'd do just the opposite in hopes of bring the players back. But of course, they've all got their corporate margins to hit, players or not.

[VideoTech]

Atlantic City is hurting. The Vegas ads were generally about a group of machines or a row of machins as opposed to the whole industry.

 

Every casino has that bank of machines that are advertised as "Up to 98% payback." Of course, that's just on ONE machine in the bank of machines!

[wroughtironron]

I got thrown out of a casino in Reno, not because I cheated, but because I misunderstood the meaning of "crap table"...

[Ilovesailing]

I have seen a lot of questions as to how cruise ship casinos compare to land casinos. I have been to Vegas several times, Mississippi, Indiana and Tennessee casinos. The ship casinos definitely do not compare (going on the Epic in Nov. and am sure it will be closer).

 

However, that being said, when I travel to a land based casino and spend the night I spend the entire night mainly in the casino. This can run through a lot of cash. I think the big advantage of the cruise casinos is that even though the odds are not as good there are so many other things to do that you do not need to stay in the casino all evening.

 

To me the casino is a part of the cruise, but there are so many other things I enjoy that it will not consume me. I do love, though, just walking down the hall to the casino if the urge hits.

 

We enjoy CAS booking, free drink cards, points redemption and the general ambience of the casino. Hey and it is generally not over 100 degrees outside.

 

Good for you because the more you spend or I should say donate it will keep my cruise price reasonable.

[jaja]

Good for you because the more you spend or I should say donate it will keep my cruise price reasonable.

 

I always do my part.;).donating in the casino--every cruise :eek:

[Georgiagolfer]

Well, I for one can say I never lost anything in any casino, machine or table, even after hours of playing. In fact, I can take you and show you where I left it, table or machine.:cool: