People still getting sick on VOS ;all I can do is hop this is one lottery I don't win

[Starspangle1]

We asked when we got on the ship about people getting sick on sailing before ours and we were told that they weren't aware of it but the crew kept reminding everyone to sanitize your hands all the time, of course we knew better because we read these posts. None of us got sick but all of us and others that we spoke to on the ship had the same dry cough, runny noses and watery eyes, don't know what that was all about but we did notice it about 2 days into the cruise.

[gizfish]

Unfortunately, an antimicrobial hand wash will not kill a virus, only bacteria.

Hand sanitizers do in fact kill viruses. This is not like the case where an antibiotic pill won't help a viral cold. The hand sanitizers' active ingredient is alcohol, and alcohol basically kills everything.

[bingo3]

Alcohol does not kill everything, a common misconception. Taking a microbiology lab course will re-inforce that fact.

 

From the Purell website: FDA does not allow anti-viral claims on alcohol based products. There is no evidence alcohol kills viruses.

 

We use Isagel at work (ethyl alcohol) and the label says: for handwashing to decrease BACTERIA on the skin when hands ARE NOT VISIBLY SOILED.

 

(hand sanitizers should never take the place of proper handwashing)

 

From another site: because alcohols are poor cleaners and evaporate rapidly, they are not the best choice on environmental surfaces. They will however, kill instantly any bacteria present on the skin. However, it does not prevent one from picking up a germ after use.

 

From another site: Both alcohol based sanitizers and antibacterial soaps kill harmful bacteria such as strep, E. coli, salmonella, etc. These products do not claim to kill viruses.

 

These products will help in stopping the spread of germs, bacterial ones, but not necessarily viral ones. Viruses are much tougher than bacteria to destroy, which is why we have no cure for the common cold nor the Norwalk virus or most other viruses. Keeping hands properly washed with soap and water is the best infection control method.

[gizfish]

I said alchohol kills BASICALLY everything, and that is true. I never intended to suggest that hand sanitizers should be used instead of good handwashing or when hands looked dirty. I have read the info at the Purell site and also at the CDC site, and in fact the CDC recommends hand sanitizers for places in hospitals and nursing homes where a good hand wash is not possible or likely. In some of the CDC's publications they actually say that alcohol based hand sanitizers are "the best" for hand hygiene.

 

The key words are that the FDA won't ALLOW the Purell company to state their product kills viruses. The reason for that is because Purell has not paid the money to do the research on this. That's why a bottle costs about 2 bucks and not 5. It does not mean that Purell does not kill viruses. It is not true that there is "no evidence that alcohol kills viruses." Purell and all hand sanitizers are required to be a certain percentage of alcohol (if I remember correctly it was 70%). That amount of alcohol in conjuntion with the friction of using the product has a very high chance of killing viruses. The fact that a hand sanitizer is a gel makes it more effective because it is less quickly drying than straight alcohol. Further research on the web shows that although it is not possible to test specifically if Norwalk is killed with alcohol, that a similar virus used to test this is killed by alcohol. Alcohol also kills the common cold virus as well.

 

Yes, the best infection control method is proper hand washing, but most people do not wash their hands the way a healthcare professional does, and then they recontaminate their hands touching a restroom door, elevator button, etc. Using a hand gel right before eating, and using the right amount with lots of friction will most likely prevent getting Norwalk.

 

While it is true that inside our bodies it is difficult to kill a virus, that doesn't really relate to a virus on our hands. We can't inject ourselves with alcohol to try to kill a virus. Alcohol on the hands does kill viruses. That is why it is approved for surgical scrubs and in the health care setting.

[VernRDH]

I said alchohol kills BASICALLY everything, and that is true. I never intended to suggest that hand sanitizers should be used instead of good handwashing or when hands looked dirty. I have read the info at the Purell site and also at the CDC site, and in fact the CDC recommends hand sanitizers for places in hospitals and nursing homes where a good hand wash is not possible or likely. In some of the CDC's publications they actually say that alcohol based hand sanitizers are "the best" for hand hygiene.

 

The key words are that the FDA won't ALLOW the Purell company to state their product kills viruses. The reason for that is because Purell has not paid the money to do the research on this. That's why a bottle costs about 2 bucks and not 5. It does not mean that Purell does not kill viruses. It is not true that there is "no evidence that alcohol kills viruses." Purell and all hand sanitizers are required to be a certain percentage of alcohol (if I remember correctly it was 70%). That amount of alcohol in conjuntion with the friction of using the product has a very high chance of killing viruses. The fact that a hand sanitizer is a gel makes it more effective because it is less quickly drying than straight alcohol. Further research on the web shows that although it is not possible to test specifically if Norwalk is killed with alcohol, that a similar virus used to test this is killed by alcohol. Alcohol also kills the common cold virus as well.

 

Yes, the best infection control method is proper hand washing, but most people do not wash their hands the way a healthcare professional does, and then they recontaminate their hands touching a restroom door, elevator button, etc. Using a hand gel right before eating, and using the right amount with lots of friction will most likely prevent getting Norwalk.

 

While it is true that inside our bodies it is difficult to kill a virus, that doesn't really relate to a virus on our hands. We can't inject ourselves with alcohol to try to kill a virus. Alcohol on the hands does kill viruses. That is why it is approved for surgical scrubs and in the health care setting.

 

Are you a health care professional? I am and I can tell you that alcohol does not kill viruses or many other bacteria. If that were the case, I would not have to spend so much on disinfectenats for my dental office. We could just go to Sams or Costco and buy a HUGE bottle of alcohol and use that to clean our instrument. Would you like to have work done on you with instruments that were only soaked in alcohol? I think not.

 

The FDA has not approved Purell for anitviral properties because IT HAS NONE. It is an antibacterial, plain and simple.

 

If you go to any hospital today, they do still have alcohol. But they use special surgical scrub soaps and antiBACTERIAL hand washes. Alcohol has gone the way of the dinosaur in terms of infection control.

 

 

The best defense is THOROUGH HANDWASHING. Purell etc are anti-BACTERIAL, not anti-viral. According to the Clinical Research Associates, who tests products for dental professionals, the best disinfectant is Lysol spray. It is what is recommended for us to use in the operatory between patients to kill the greatest number of bacteria and viruses. Lysol wipes don't do it-the formulation is different(we have asked, would make life soooo much easier). They recommend you spray a towel with Lysol and then wipe and let it air dry.

 

My daughter is in daycare and public school (half day kindergarten), DH works in another school and I am a hygienist. I can count on one hand the number of times we have been sick in the last year. We do not use Purell at all, just good hand washing (sing the alphabet song and that is how long you should scrub).

 

Wash your hands, wash your hands, wash your hands and mind what you touch. Push elevator buttons with your knuckle, don't touch handrails, and watch out at the buffet. Sneeze and cough into the inside of your elbow, not on your hands. .

 

That is what it all boils down to....personal responsibility and good personal hygiene.

[gizfish]

Are you a health care professional? I am and I can tell you that alcohol does not kill viruses or many other bacteria. If that were the case, I would not have to spend so much on disinfectenats for my dental office. We could just go to Sams or Costco and buy a HUGE bottle of alcohol and use that to clean our instrument. Would you like to have work done on you with instruments that were only soaked in alcohol? I think not.

 

The FDA has not approved Purell for anitviral properties because IT HAS NONE. It is an antibacterial, plain and simple.

 

If you go to any hospital today, they do still have alcohol. But they use special surgical scrub soaps and antiBACTERIAL hand washes. Alcohol has gone the way of the dinosaur in terms of infection control.

 

Actually I am an RN, and I can tell you that alcohol does kill bacteria and many viruses. It kills Hep virus, it kills Rotovirus, and it kills others as well. As for soaking your instruments in it, I am sure the solutions you use are probably less damaging to the instruments and that is one of the reasons you don't use alcohol. Also dipping your hands in 70% or higher alcohol all day to sanitize your surfaces would have very damaging effects to your hands as it would be so drying. However, I did find an abstract regarding alcohol's effectivness specifically in dental situations. Here is a link: http://www.onderwijs.acta.nl/studieweb/owpdocs2004-2005/Alcohol%20Int%20J%20Dent%20Hygl.pdf

 

Also, I am sure that the solutions you and others use that deal with cleaning instruments have properties that will clean particulate matter, which just soaking in alchohol won't do. I know hospitals aggitate or use waves to help remove particles from instruments too, so no, alcohol may not be best for those situations. Once again, I did not say to use alcohol to clean something that is visibly dirty. And, true the hospital has special soaps and scrubs, but the CDC recommends the use of hand sanitizers in the health care setting because it is effective in infection control. The Purell site says the reason they do not make the claim that their product kills viruses is because the FDA has not approved a method to test for this. However, the CDC did testing on this and here's a link: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/rr/rr5116.PDF

 

I really think this thread has gotten way to technical and beyond the scope of the original post. I have no doubt that for your family hand washing works at preventing just about every person to person illness. It works for my family too because I have trained everyone to be just as nuts about it and do it the exact right way, and I am sure you have taught your family that too. But, most people (heck many docs) don't wash their hands correctly. Or, if they somehow manage to do a thorough job they still recontaminate their hands touching the door knob, paper towel holder, elevator button, etc. before they eat. That is where using a hand sanitizer (and BTW, Purell does not market itself as an antibacterial but a "hand sanitizer" which has a much different and broader spectrum meaning, so the statement about it being an "antibacterial, plain and simple" is false) can help prevent the spread of illness.

 

I totally agree that the best infection control is proper hand washing, but reality is that most people don't do it properly or it's just not feasible in all situations before sitting down to eat. When was the last time you picked up the grubby menu or salt and pepper shaker at your table and then ran off to wash your hands for the alphabet song (twinkle twinkle works good too) before picking up your fork?

[ll6747]

And something I never thought about until I recently cruised...at buffets, EVERYONE is touching the serving spoons...I think I will be washing or sanitizing my hands AFTER getting my food and BEFORE eating it at any buffet in the future!

[cruisingsaw]

I just came off of the VOS on Sunday. I didn't see any signs of sickness. There were hand sanitizers at the Windjammer and the dining rooms. They had crew nicely reminding people to use them on their way in.

 

The ship looked really clean. So hopefully its all gone. Have a good cruise

[debandbill]

Recently returned from Mariner/Disney trip and since our Disney stay was post cruise, I was accutely aware of the possibility of someone in our party of 4 getting sick and putting a big crimp in our long awaited celebration!

 

We all were aware of the precautions that needed to be taken and we all tried to comply...to the point of having really dry hands. But what I observed was how hard it was to keep your hands from being recontaminated once you washed them. On a cruise ship, you just sometimes need to hold unto the rails to steady yourself...especially if you are in dressy clothes and heels and the ship is moving and the steps are marble or glass. As one poster mentioned, the food lines and those ladels seem to be a big source of cross contamination. I did learn to push the handicapped door opener button with my elbow inside the bathroom to open the door to leave...kept me from having to touch anything. But my biggest concern....everytime we left the ship and came back on, we weren't allowed to insert our seapasses ourselves...the security people would grab it and insert...handing it back to you. Now, most people do leave the ship at port so I just touched something that at least 50% of the passengers touched...ouch! Can't believe the folks in charge of this issue don't see a problem with that!

 

Fortunately, we all stayed healthy...much thanks to the vacation gods! Deb

[derf5585]

I just came off of the VOS on Sunday.

 

This is the "Roll Call" for the 30 July Triumph cruise

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=181333

[Starspangle1]

Of course people are touching the handles of the serving spoons this wouldn't cause the transfer of germs, are people licking them? The reason why they tell you to sanitize your hands before entering the eating areas is because people tend to touch their food with their hands such as bread. They are trying to protect you before your hands go near your mouth.

I am constantly washing my hands at work all day just out of habit anyway but what would make being on a ship any different then any other day at home, I mean you are carrying around with you the most filthiest thing possible....MONEY. You can only be so careful but then after that what can you do worry your whole cruise away.

[ll6747]

Of course people are touching the handles of the serving spoons this wouldn't cause the transfer of germs, are people licking them?

 

 

no...they are not licking them, but they might have sneezed/coughed into them. and on the cruise it was OK because everyone was sanitizing their hands on the way in, but at restaurant buffets and salad bars, people have just walked in off the street, or travelers may have gone to the bathroom after a long drive before hitting the buffet line ...who knows when the last time they washed their hands was.

 

 

It's something I never thought about before...and I didn't worry the entire time I was on board, but it is something I will be conscious about in my everyday life in the future.

[mancunian]

We have just returned from a cruise (on another line). After reading reports on the board we vowed not to let any of this spoil our holiday and just be very careful. We did however, take dettol and Jcloths with us and started by sponging every handle, drawer edges, telephone, remote etc in sight in our cabin. Took about 20 minutes. The steward must have been amazed at the smell!! However, we felt we were at least off to a good start in the cabin.

 

As far as we know there were no cases on our cruise. However, my husband borrowed a book from the library and a medical centre bill dropped out from two days previous to our cruise. This was for treatment for gastro-enteritis and we did wonder. Only thing is I thought your medical bills were free if you reported to the Doctor. Sent husband back immediately with the book and to scrub hands. (Library books are actually an interesting thought are they not!).

[Goldryder]

Several ships have recently come down with the Norwalk/Norovirus. As have other forms of transport. For instance I used to be a coach operator and more than once I had a coachload of people staying at a hotel and others from other coaches were sick with the virus. My passengers were not affected at all. When I and the other drivers did a bit of investigating we discovered the people who were sick were travelling on coaches with aircon, mine didn't have it and a couple others didn't either and our passengers were virus free. The coachdrivers with aircon fitted either turned it off for the rest of the holiday or they took out the filter mats and replaced them with antiviral ones. The virus soon killed itself off once those basic changes had been made. I spose its where you have large numbers of people in a confined space with aircon, sometimes the aircon filter mats can be overlooked and seeing as most viruses are airborne, the aircon systems can often harbour nasties. When ever I get onto anything with aircon or into a room with it, I tend to turn it off or spray it with antiviral spray, which you can get in most chemists, and of course I double up on the personal hygeine too.

[stuNYC]

Based on the recent posting in May about outbreaks on the VOS, I was tempted to cancel my cruise. But we did go. I am in fact the OP of this thread

I was prepared with bottles and packs of Purell. I medicine to stop running from both ends.

 

As it turned out I never used the Purel only the hand sanitizers before and after we went into eat.

 

I am glad to report that I only observed one passenger spreaking to guest relations about compensation for being confined to her stateroom for 3 days.

 

I'm glad that I didn't win this lottery but my DW won $ 800 playing slots and I won a similar amount for coming in 1st, 2nd and 3rd place in the blackjack tournament.

 

I'd rather win cash than a virus; but after several days I no longer worried about it but instead had the most relaxing cruise of all times.

 

LOL

[Got2bsunny]

I actually carried my own hand sanitizer around with me and used it constantly especially after opening doors.

 

Pam

[LonW]

Unfortunately, an antimicrobial hand wash will not kill a virus, only bacteria.:)

[nrdsb4]

Of course people are touching the handles of the serving spoons this wouldn't cause the transfer of germs, are people licking them? .

 

Of course this would cause the transfer of germs! Imagine a hygiene deficient passenger ahead of you. He just had a nasty bout of...something in the bathroom and just so happened to leave the john without washing his hands. You are the lucky person who comes behind him at the salad bar...

 

There are so many ways to transmit germs other than through saliva.

[gizfish]

Unfortunately, an antimicrobial hand wash will not kill a virus, only bacteria.:)

Purell is a "hand sanitizer." It's active ingredient is alcohol which does kill viruses. This is a common misconception on the boards. You can search my previous posts for links to the CDC site and others that explain this.

[Starspangle1]

Of course this would cause the transfer of germs! Imagine a hygiene deficient passenger ahead of you. He just had a nasty bout of...something in the bathroom and just so happened to leave the john without washing his hands. You are the lucky person who comes behind him at the salad bar...

 

There are so many ways to transmit germs other than through saliva.

 

 

This is the case in everyday life no matter where you go and as for the germs being on the handle then that's where they would be "on the handle" the scoop part picks up your food and you would use a fork, no????

[nrdsb4]

This is the case in everyday life no matter where you go and as for the germs being on the handle then that's where they would be "on the handle" the scoop part picks up your food and you would use a fork, no????

 

 

You touch a contaminated serving utensil. You sit down to at the table to eat dinner. You touch your mouth (to swipe your hair away from your face, or you scratch an itch, doesn't matter, people touch their mouths very frequently). You are now at risk.

 

This happens all the time with fecal oral spread organisms. Thus the name "fecal-oral." Sorry, it sounds nasty, but that's the fact.

 

If you go to the CDC home page, the spread of norovirus is explained in detail. Bottom line is norovirus is spread primarily through the fecal oral route. Contaminated food and water can be a primary exposure (which is a fecal oral presentation), but touching contaminated surfaces such as hand rails, serving utensils, an infected person's unwashed hand, or any other surface and subsequently touching your mouth is also a common way this disease is spread.

 

For additional info:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/revb/gastro/norovirus-factsheet.htm

[Starspangle1]

Like I said "It's the same in everyday life" it can happen anywhere not just on a cruise ship so wouldn't you take care of yourself the same as you would at home.

[nrdsb4]

Like I said "It's the same in everyday life" it can happen anywhere not just on a cruise ship so wouldn't you take care of yourself the same as you would at home.

 

Yes, indeedy, one certainly should! I am a nurse at a large hospital. We see loads of people in our ER with this type of virus, and very few of them have ever set foot on a cruise ship. It's a common misunderstanding that cruise ships are the primary breeding ground for noroviruses; the fact is that cruise ships are the only entity required to report it.

 

I believe that according to the CDC, only 10% of the norovirus outbreaks occur as a result of LAND BASED vacations and cruises COMBINED. It's a very common illness. Personally, I'm not really fond of buffet settings, but really, all you can do is practice good hygiene and hope to goodness the people around you and those preparing your food are doing the same. Beyond that, all you can do is hope for the best and go about your business as usual. I'm certainly not going to stop going to restaurants or taking vacations.