Argentina Forces Cunard Cruise Ship to Lower British Flag

[Salacia]

Well, there's a problem with your suggestion; it contravenes international admiralty law. Ships are required to fly the flag of their registry. Most nations with a merchant marine have a merchant flag which all ships registered in that country fly, at the ensign staff aft. By custom, when entering the waters of another country, a ship flies that nation's flag at the jackstaff which is forward. Naval vessels generally do not, since they are considered sovereign territory of the nation they serve.

 

More useless trivia for you all to enjoy :)

 

Hi Jackytar. I believe you raised an important fact - not useless trivia by any stretch.

 

I have a sense that we are not privy to the particulars reported about the issue being discussed, but in general, I stand by international admiralty law which is on the side of any captain who refuses to lower the flag - or the gangplank - and sails away instead of succumbing to threats. If some passengers object to missing a port that required the captain to violate international laws, that is a non-issue in my opinion; ports have been missed for less serious reasons. Of course, it is a decision that rests with the captain of the ship.

 

Since cruise ships repeatedly state that passengers' safety is their main concern, it seems to me that cruise lines need to make a decision about docking in ports where their ships are being told, under threat, to violate international laws.

 

Salacia

[jimmybean]

No, I didn't write a review at the time, but a number of memories remain very clear in my mind.

 

We met the National Geographic research ship, Endeavour, just before we got to the Horn. They "tooted" at us and we blasted our great horn back at them. What a sound when you are standing on deck! DH and I were on the top deck, waving. The Endeavour was so tiny compared to the QM2 and seemed so excited to signal "hello" to us (as we were excited to see them). They were coming up from Antarctic. Two ships passing a long way from anyone's home, in a very lonely stretch of ocean.

 

The sea at the Horn can be very rough, but it was wasn't on the day we sailed by. It was a moderate sea, which the QM2 handled smoothly. Just after we passed the Horn, the sea was as black as ink. It was spellbinding. Shadows of light (if that description is understood) played on the black water, out in the distance. I could understand how sailors got hooked returning, voyage after voyage. I had never seen anything like it. The sky had a dense cloud cover, the sea was black, and then rays of sun light created these amazing shiny slashes on the water...

 

Chile looked like California--sort of. Like a dream where you see similarities to something familiar, but at the same time, you realize something in the picture was completely different. The mountains didn't start as rolling hills like the start of the Sierras (in Calif). Their hills were at a much steeper angle. Sharper hills. I thought they were beautiful. Interesting topography. Vegetation reminded me of California. ...Santiago is HUGE. Our tour took a tram to the top of a high hill, where we could see Santiago spread out--on and on. When we returned to the ship, lines of people had come to see the QM2, around the bay from where we boarded the ship. It was sprinkling when we got to the pier and Cunard handed out lovely, large umbrellas for our walk to the ship. The Mary 2 was so beautiful. She was our home, for a while, and I felt so proud to be sailing on her.

 

The Chilean navy was in the harbor---explained to us a gift from Britain, after Chile provided support during the Falkland War….Older and smaller British ships now useful to Chile… (The support, I understand, was allowing Britain to use Chile as a base during the war--not soldiers or supplies).

 

Sorry to be so long-winded and off-topic…. Rio and Peru and Uruguay also very memorable. But, really off-topic...

[Salacia]

jimmybean, thanks for a that visual, painted with words. Regards, -S.

[Salacia]

Samuel Eliot Morison tells us all we have to know about who really owns the Falkland Islands:

 

"… the Falkland Islands in the South Atlantic, off the southern tip of Argentina, had been ceeded in 1771 to England. She had never bothered to take possesion, but the islands were frequented by ships from Stonington, Connecticut, whose crews slaughtered, for the skins, the great herds of seal that bred there. Around 1820 the Argentine Republic put in a claim for the Falklands and appointed as governor Louis Vernet, who imported cattle and gauchos and established a flourishing ranch. As the American seal-skinners showed a propensity to slay and eat his cattle, Vernet caused two of their vessels to be seized, plundered, and sent to Buenos Aires. Jackson’s secretary of the navy, Levi Woodbury, then ordered sloop-of-war Lexington, Captain Silas Duncan, to sail to the Falklands and protect American interests. Duncan did this very effectively by rounding up the not unwilling gauchos, long unpaid and heartily sick of the Falklands, and sailing them 1000 miles to Buenos Aires and Montevideo.

 

Unknown to Secretary Woodbury, the British government had decided to take possession of the Falklands, and did so in 1833 since nobody was there - thanks to Captain Duncan."

 

Chapter XXVIII, The Oxford History of the American People by Samuel Eliot Morison, New York - Oxford University Press, 1965.

 

P.S. Thank goodness President Jackson never claimed "Duncan's Islands" for the United States. But, if he had, I'm sure that Margaret Thatcher would have supported our triumphant reconquest and liberation in 1982.

 

I didn't know that - thanks for that interesting history lesson. :)

 

But as to who "owes the Falkland Islands", I'd say the people who live there 'own it' - they have the right of self-determination, and they have voted to remain a British Overseas Territory. Or am I missing something? -

S.

[Salacia]

Check out the latest Cunard news from Cruise Critic:

 

Argentina Forces Cunard Cruise Ship to Lower British Flag

 

Laura, question regarding your headline: how exactly did Argentina force the captain of the Queen Victoria to "lower the British Flag"?

 

Quoted from the Cruise Critic:

 

"According to reports, Queen Victoria's captain was told she would face a substantial fine if she didn't lower the flag -- a red ensign, representing Britain's merchant marine fleet.

 

A spokeswoman for Cunard confirmed the incident, which took place in late January, saying: "As requested by the port authorities, whilst Queen Victoria was in Argentinian waters, the Cunard flag was flown, in this instance, rather than the ensign."

 

So it appears (based on the information provided by Cruise Critic News) that the red ensign was lowered in contravention to international maritime law, in order to avoid a substantial fine - which perhaps suggests a different headline? -S.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Salacia

[cunardaddict]

But as to who "owes the Falkland Islands", I'd say the people who live there 'own it' - they have the right of self-determination, and they have voted to remain a British Overseas Territory. Or am I missing something? -

S.

 

That's probably the best view on it. Unfortunately two very proud countries are involved and definitely no common sense ar all.

 

How many of those people living on the island now are definitely willing to stay there even if the government would change to Argentina?

 

I heard that the Pitcairns are desperate for new settlers...

[cunardaddict]

...myself as an american i will never buy products or visit vietnam.

 

In future you may have difficulties to meet the dresscode on a Cunard ship:D

[Cats2010]

Thank you so much for this beautiful and romantic description, jimmybean.

To be honest, I wouldn't have thought QM2 could sail the Cape and the Chilean fjords, since she is so large ... This must have been a real challenge.

Thanks again,

Cats2010:)

[newjoisey]

In future you may have difficulties to meet the dresscode on a Cunard ship:D

 

been there...done that. i onced was just about to have a pair of socks rung up at a sears counter and noticed the were made in HUE ,vietman. i was choked up and at a loss of words.i returned them to the rack. TOO MANY good marines died in hue.

[newjoisey]

Well, there's a problem with your suggestion; it contravenes international admiralty law. Ships are required to fly the flag of their registry. Most nations with a merchant marine have a merchant flag which all ships registered in that country fly, at the ensign staff aft. By custom, when entering the waters of another country, a ship flies that nation's flag at the jackstaff which is forward. Naval vessels generally do not, since they are considered sovereign territory of the nation they serve.

 

More useless trivia for you all to enjoy :)

 

like i said stop with the HBO drama. tell them ya lost the proper flag,the dog ate it,it aint back from the laundry ,put up the NY yankees flag,a white flag. is some cop on a jet ski gonna come out and write the qm2 a ticket:cool::rolleyes:

[Jimsgirl]

I blame Cunard "planners" for being careless (stupid) in using Argentina as a port call, when that country has been "rattling its sabres "recently.

 

If the safety of passengers is of concern they should always be aware of international tensions, but alas some of the whiz kids in control seldom have any knowledge of geography or politics. They rely too much on computers to do their thinking.

[Cruise Liner Fan]

I didn't know that - thanks for that interesting history lesson. :)

 

But as to who "owes the Falkland Islands", I'd say the people who live there 'own it' - they have the right of self-determination, and they have voted to remain a British Overseas Territory. Or am I missing something? -

S.

Salacia, You are 1001% correct with this opinion. As for Argentina that nation has become a third rate banana republic. Here is my salute to that third rate banana republic known as Argentina :p Regards,Jerry

Edited February 15, 2014 by Cruise Liner Fan

[Chunky2219]

You'd think they'd be falling over themselves to welcome people, Argentina is circling the drain. http://moneyweek.com/bill-bonner-argentina-is-going-down-v2/?utm_expid=8178444-3.sTOsuTMbQoSdthWZpun5Ww.1&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fpaid.outbrain.com%2Fnetwork%2Fredir%3Fkey%3D149fa398d52cf9c5c93bbe10d40dbd4b%26rdid%3D738043676%26type%3DPLD_%2FNA_ch2%26in-site%3Dfalse%26idx%3D0%26pc_id%3D21673395%26req_id%3Da336c21c9abb53782163f097efbcc050%26agent%3Dblog_JS_rec%26recMode%3D11%26reqType%3D1%26wid%3D101%26imgType%3D2%26adsCats%3D1202%2C1203%2C1206%26refPub%3D683%26prs%3Dtrue%26scp%3Dfalse%26fcapElementId%3D33466%26origSrc%3D41842%26did%3D722529447

 

But as in all politically troubled places, a good dose of Xenophobia works wonders at keeping the proletariat on side. We're doing it in the UK with the EU bashing, Netherlands and France the same, the US is turning inward, China and Japan are constantly talking up how horrible the other side is. Not long before Argentina isn't worth docking a cruise ship at, regardless of nationality.

 

.

[Cats2010]

You'd think they'd be falling over themselves to welcome people, Argentina is circling the drain. http://moneyweek.com/bill-bonner-argentina-is-going-down-v2/?utm_expid=8178444-3.sTOsuTMbQoSdthWZpun5Ww.1&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fpaid.outbrain.com%2Fnetwork%2Fredir%3Fkey%3D149fa398d52cf9c5c93bbe10d40dbd4b%26rdid%3D738043676%26type%3DPLD_%2FNA_ch2%26in-site%3Dfalse%26idx%3D0%26pc_id%3D21673395%26req_id%3Da336c21c9abb53782163f097efbcc050%26agent%3Dblog_JS_rec%26recMode%3D11%26reqType%3D1%26wid%3D101%26imgType%3D2%26adsCats%3D1202%2C1203%2C1206%26refPub%3D683%26prs%3Dtrue%26scp%3Dfalse%26fcapElementId%3D33466%26origSrc%3D41842%26did%3D722529447

 

But as in all politically troubled places, a good dose of Xenophobia works wonders at keeping the proletariat on side. We're doing it in the UK with the EU bashing, Netherlands and France the same, the US is turning inward, China and Japan are constantly talking up how horrible the other side is. Not long before Argentina isn't worth docking a cruise ship at, regardless of nationality.

 

.

 

Free movement of people, goods and services is a fundamental right in the EU.

[Jackytar]

like i said stop with the HBO drama. tell them ya lost the proper flag,the dog ate it,it aint back from the laundry ,put up the NY yankees flag,a white flag. is some cop on a jet ski gonna come out and write the qm2 a ticket:cool::rolleyes:

 

Let's just see if I can put it to you this way, then. From your handle, I infer you're American. How about if the captain of an American-flagged cruise ship, on entering a port in the Mediterranean, was told to lower the American flag or face a fine? How do you imagine that would play in the US? Perhaps now you get it?

 

To you it may be HBO drama. But in fact, it is a diplomatic "in your face" by the Argentines to the British. Quite possibly one of several moves to see if the Brits have the moxie to do something if the Argentines make a move on the Falklands again.

[Salacia]

Let's just see if I can put it to you this way, then. From your handle, I infer you're American. How about if the captain of an American-flagged cruise ship, on entering a port in the Mediterranean, was told to lower the American flag or face a fine? How do you imagine that would play in the US? Perhaps now you get it?

 

To you it may be HBO drama. But in fact, it is a diplomatic "in your face" by the Argentines to the British. Quite possibly one of several moves to see if the Brits have the moxie to do something if the Argentines make a move on the Falklands again.

 

Jackytar, I get what you are saying.

 

But I think that it is quite possible that many realize that a government in serious trouble (financial and otherwise) tries to create a diversion away from domestic issues. Hopefully, the citizens of Argentina will see the handwriting on the wall, and will not fall for it - and nor will any country submit to demands in violation of International Maritime Law.

 

I am troubled by the lack of specifics regarding this incident. Could the "threat" have been issued by one lawless pseudo authority at the port without authorization from the central government? No doubt the captain of the ship would made entries in the log, and contacted the Cunard home office regarding any threats to the ship. Yet this information is not forthcoming, despite headlines that ingnite response.

 

Let the tail not wag the dog.

 

But having said that, Argentina won't my holiday destination for the foreseeable future. -S.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Salacia

[cunardaddict]

But I think that it is quite possible that many realize that a government in serious trouble (financial and otherwise) tries to create a diversion away from domestic issues.

 

Definitely correct - but Argentina hasn't been first in acting so...

 

Waving with the Bushes.

[SEFlyer]

Here is a link to a Uruguay based news service that says the whole story is nonsense:

http://en.mercopress.com/2014/02/14/argentina-says-queen-victoria-alleged-incident-was-nonexistent-just-rumors

[cunardaddict]

Here is a link to a Uruguay based news service that says the whole story is nonsense

 

A 'nonexistant incident' is a diplomatic terminus describing an incident which has been agrred by both countries involved as not to be worth any discussion.

 

Not at all does this terminus proove that it didn't happen. Nevertheless I do get the impression that the source of the basic information is either instrumented or purposely aggressive or stated after some comfortable bottles of wine and or spirits, so not reliable at all. I have some experience in talks with old servicemen of the highest ranks.

[SEFlyer]

A 'nonexistant incident' is a diplomatic terminus describing an incident which has been agrred by both countries involved as not to be worth any discussion.

 

Not at all does this terminus proove that it didn't happen. Nevertheless I do get the impression that the source of the basic information is either instrumented or purposely aggressive or stated after some comfortable bottles of wine and or spirits, so not reliable at all. I have some experience in talks with old servicemen of the highest ranks.

 

Maybe you could show us a source for your expertise in 'diplomatic terminus.'

 

Both countries agreeing this alleged incident is not worth discussion needs to make sense. It doesn't!

 

The flag wavers in the British government would love nothing more than for this alleged incident to be true so they can wave the flag some more and denounce the awful Argies again.

 

Other than your diplomatic jargon expertise, can you provide some alternative source that says this incident actually happened?

[cunardaddict]

Maybe you could show us a source for your expertise in 'diplomatic terminus.'

 

Both countries agreeing this alleged incident is not worth discussion needs to make sense. It doesn't!

 

The flag wavers in the British government would love nothing more than for this alleged incident to be true so they can wave the flag some more and denounce the awful Argies again.

 

Other than your diplomatic jargon expertise, can you provide some alternative source that says this incident actually happened?

 

I have to apologize for my bad English. Obviously I did not make myself clear enough.

 

The 'incident' that definitely happened is the message of a British newspaper about QV having been forced to lower the flag. I have no reliable information of any action of the Argentinian government towards the QV or her master. If you read my comment on the gentlemen who wrote the report and gave it to the newspaper you must see clearly that neither have I started this story nor have I ever confirmed it.

 

All I said is that in diplomatic terms any 'non existent incident' could well have happened.

 

We have AFAIR no other report from anyone on the QV confirming the incident. I doubt very much that we would have had to wait days before such an important story reaches this board.

[2irisheyes]

No need to apologise, your English is very good. It puts many of us to shame.

[Chunky2219]

Definitely correct - but Argentina hasn't been first in acting so.........

Er........... Are you aware of 2nd April 1982?

 

I'm not old enought to remember 1939, but my old dad told me that someone claimed it all kicked off because the Poles fired the first shot. Maybe by the same logic, the Argentinians thought the British islanders were being unkind to the penguins. :rolleyes:

 

 

.

[cunardaddict]

Er........... Are you aware of 2nd April 1982?

Maybe by the same logic, the Argentinians thought the British islanders were being unkind to the penguins. :rolleyes:

 

 

.

 

We can solve all mystries of history. Indeed, they are not nice to the pengins

http://www.falklandsconservation.com/wildlife/penguins/history

 

Since we ran out of eggs last year on QM2 on the way to Dubai for 5 days I do know to value eggs:rolleyes:

Edited February 17, 2014 by cunardaddict

[roscoe39]

I have to apologize for my bad English. Obviously I did not make myself clear enough.

 

The 'incident' that definitely happened is the message of a British newspaper about QV having been forced to lower the flag. I have no reliable information of any action of the Argentinian government towards the QV or her master. If you read my comment on the gentlemen who wrote the report and gave it to the newspaper you must see clearly that neither have I started this story nor have I ever confirmed it.

 

All I said is that in diplomatic terms any 'non existent incident' could well have happened.

 

We have AFAIR no other report from anyone on the QV confirming the incident. I doubt very much that we would have had to wait days before such an important story reaches this board.

 

been reading the preceding thread with much amusement…yes I am on board…yes I was on board when we called at Port Madryn and yes .. one of the sticking points with us docking that morning was that we..(read..the ship) was told that she could not fly the red ensign.

In the end, we were able to dock for several hours, to off load passengers who were doing the overland and take on the cape horn pilots.

 

It was agreed by most of the passengers i spoke to that the captain made the best out of what the conditions were that they were met with and appreciated the effort to afford some of us to disembark .. briefly.

apart from that…its been a non issue on board as far as the passengers are concerned.

 

All the argintinians Ive encountered so far have been friendly and outgoing…but then………..im a kiwi….

 

there is a blog about port madryn on my site…

 

http://roscoesseafever.blogspot.co.nz

 

regards…roscoe

Edited February 17, 2014 by roscoe39