QE2 Old Deck Plans and Cabin Selection

[planetcadillac]

We are thinking about taking the QE2 or the QM2 for a cruise sometime in 2006. Have been on the QE2 before (you can see below) but not the QM2 so our initial desire was to take the QM2 for the first time. However with the QM2 taking over most of the US based cruises and most all of the transatlantic cruises we thought we might want to cruise on the QE2 one last time before she departs.

 

In the past we have always just booked a cheap cabin, partly because we are not food gourmands (I am diabetic so I watch) nor could we ever really afford top of the line accomodations. This time around we can probably do a Caronia cabin so we are going to try and put some more thought into our cabin selection.

 

I obtained a QE2 Plan of Accomodations chart from eBay that is dated July 1968 even though the ship was no launched until 1969. I thought that the ship was originally planning to be a three-class ship, then ultimately launched as a two-class ship and then eventually became just the restaurant-divided ship that it is today. However in looking at those deckplans from July 1968 I do not see any class distinctions or accomodation distinctions at all. It does have the individual rooms listed with furniture arrangements which is nice. We are going to try and use that one website that has indivudual room designations and this old deck plan and work with our TA to find a great room.

[mhdubgal]

Try using www.deluxecruises.com. They have a layout of the QE2 showing the square feet of every room. I used this to get the biggest sinlge cabin they have. Good luck.

[planetcadillac]

Try using www.deluxecruises.com. They have a layout of the QE2 showing the square feet of every room. I used this to get the biggest sinlge cabin they have. Good luck.

Thanks, yes I know about them, I just didn't want to publically say that on the boards since I thought it was taboo to make specific recommendations about agencies.

 

There were several postings regarding class distinctions and the link in previous threads but I cannot find them now.

[juliecat]

Be sure you have a current deckplan before you book. The plan currently on the Cunard website will be obsolete by January. They are adding categories (as can be seen on the pricing pages of the website), but those new categories are not on the deck plans yet.

 

Julia

[dougnewmanatsea]

My guess is that your deck plan is a "cruise" deck plan, for one-class cruises, hence no class distinction.

 

Generally speaking, the cabins on Four and Five Decks were tourist-class, and One, Two, and Three decks first-class. As for public rooms, Quarter Deck was first-class while Upper Deck and Boat Deck were tourist.

 

e.g. the first-class lounge was the Queens Room, while the tourist-class lounge was the Double Room (now Grand Lounge, Royal Promenade, and Yacht Club - the original Double Down Room, Double Up Room, and Double Down Bar respectively).

 

It is true that she was originally designed as a three-class ship however this was changed to two-class before the design was finished. There are still vestiges of the three-class design, but the change was made early enough for there to be, for example, only two main dining rooms (Britannia and Columbia, now Mauretania and Caronia) and two main lounges (Queens Room and Double Room - latter described above). If she were a three-class ship Boat Deck would have been given over to tourist-class public areas, Upper Deck to cabin-class, and Quarter Deck to first-class. The Double Room would have been two one-deck-high lounges, so the Double Up Room would have been the tourist-class lounge and the Double Down Room and Bar would have been for cabin-class.

 

I am not sure where the tourist-class dining room would have been in a three-class QE2, though I suspect it may have been in place of the 736 Club, now the Queens Grill (yes, ironic since that is now the most expensive restaurant on the ship).

[transat_jon]

I think the lower classes would have had shared the Britannia dining room. Early sitting second class, late sitting third class.

[Colin_Cameron]

I think the lower classes would have had shared the Britannia dining room. Early sitting second class, late sitting third class.

 

I think it might have been the other way around?

 

Regards, Colin.

[dougnewmanatsea]

I think the lower classes would have had shared the Britannia dining room.

Interesting! So no separate cabin-class dining room.

[guernseyguy]

Interesting! So no separate cabin-class dining room.

 

All references to a three class layout I have read referred to a shared 'cabin class'/tourist class' restaurant. Cabin class was to be the smallest of the three - and it might have had a separate entrance from Tourist class - with Tourist forward from their A staircase, with Cabin from Upper deck midships.....in the end it was the upgrading of the minimum in Tourist to all ensuite that led to the British finally overcoming the American objections to move to a two class layout.....

 

Peter

[planetcadillac]

All references to a three class layout I have read referred to a shared 'cabin class'/tourist class' restaurant. Cabin class was to be the smallest of the three - and it might have had a separate entrance from Tourist class - with Tourist forward from their A staircase, with Cabin from Upper deck midships.....in the end it was the upgrading of the minimum in Tourist to all ensuite that led to the British finally overcoming the American objections to move to a two class layout.....

 

Peter

I am still looking for a copy of the Philip Dawson book - however its hard to find in the US. I have a July 1968 preliminary deck plan and a 1973 deck plan. The 1973 deck plan has delimination between First Class and the rest.

 

As for three classes, if you study the ship layout closely you can get an idea of how a three-class arrangement would work. At least with the lobbies/foyers on Two Deck. Thre are three lobbies, a Midships Lobby which was the First Class lobby, and a forward and aft lobbies one of which would be Second and the other Third. I would suspect that the Third Class lobby would be foward and Second Class aft. That was a common arrangement on British ships. I have studied the Titanic's deckplans and they had a similar arrangement.

 

Of course the British were always interested in differentiation between societal groups it continues today with the restaurant arrangements. Even though the QE2 was originally launched as a two-class ship it was gentle in the division (especially since it was a one-class ship on warm water cruises), unlike past ships like the Titanic where there were actually large gates with locks dividing the classes. Those divisions were long before my time but it would be nice to have been able to see those then, on the QE2 and on other ships. I wonder if old pictures exist of the division zones.

[guernseyguy]

Of course the British were always interested in differentiation between societal groups

 

Actually it was AMERICAN immigration rules which led to the rigid segregation between the classes (someting which is conveniently forgotten today)......with 'Third Class' going through Ellis Island the shipping companies options were either to keep the classes severely apart - so First/Second would not 'catch' anything from 'Third' and could disembark in Manhattan..... or have the whole ship clear through Ellis Island......Similarly it was the AMERICANS who argued for a 3 class QE2.....

 

Peter

[guernseyguy]

I am still looking for a copy of the Philip Dawson book - however its hard to find in the US. .

 

abebooks.com has several listed - cheapest $15.15 plus $16 for shipment from the UK within 10 days....I highly recommend the book, also Dawson's latest, Liner, Retrospective and Renaissance which is on Amazon, as is his earlier also excellent 'Cruise Ships'.....

 

Peter

[guernseyguy]

My guess is that your deck plan is a "cruise" deck plan, for one-class cruises, hence no class distinction.

 

I have a 1971 Trans Atlantic Deck plan, which most annoyingly has no class differentiation marked - the only clues are a wall on three deck aft, by the G stair tower, otherwise no other evidence of segregation.

 

Peter

[planetcadillac]

I have a 1971 Trans Atlantic Deck plan, which most annoyingly has no class differentiation marked - the only clues are a wall on three deck aft, by the G stair tower, otherwise no other evidence of segregation.

 

Peter

Well since even in the beginning the ship was designed to be flexible with class arrangements depending on the sailing being offered, I was not expecting walls and other hard core barriers to be in place. This is not like the olden days where the classes were completely separated and it was nearly impossible to slip into another class area. Passengers were mostly 'grouped' rather than divided per se compared to other liners historically.

 

My 1973 plans differentiate between First and the rest using a dotted line sectioning things off. Again like you said there is only one physical barrier per se that suppsed wall on three deck. According to my 1973 plans First Class was these areas:

 

A) The suites on Signal and Boat Deck

B) Boat Deck forward of the funnel area - which included suites, upper theatre area and Queen's Grill

C) All of Quarter Deck

D) Almost all of One Deck except for the rearmost part which gave tourist class access to their own lido and pool area.

E) Two Deck from the After Lobby to the Forward Lobby.

F) Three Deck from the 'wall' to the synagogue forward.

G) Six and Seven Decks at the rear contained an indoor pool/Turkish bath facility.

 

Tourist was:

 

A) All of Upper Deck.

B) Tail end of Boat Deck which had the upper portion of the Double Lounge.

C) The back tip of One Deck for the pool and lido area.

D) The forward and rear tips of Two Deck.

E) The forward and rear tips of Three Deck.

F) All of Four and Five Decks.

 

Unlike other ships of the past, the QE2 is like more modern and current ships where passenger accomodations were primarily on the lower decks, with activity decks including the dining rooms, in the super structure. On past ships of note, like the Titanic, accomodation and activities were sectioned off, the dining rooms were on lower decks with the different classes at different ends of the ship. Today with the QM2 of course everyone is assigned a restaurant like the QE2 but everything is so interspersed.

[guernseyguy]

G) Six and Seven Decks at the rear contained an indoor pool/Turkish bath facility.

 

Thanks for posting the info - very helpful! Were both indoor pools assigned to First Class? I'd assumed that the 7 deck pool (C staircase - with access/lift to one deck) was First Class while the six deck was for Trans Atlantic pax.

 

Peter

[planetcadillac]

Thanks for posting the info - very helpful! Were both indoor pools assigned to First Class? I'd assumed that the 7 deck pool (C staircase - with access/lift to one deck) was First Class while the six deck was for Trans Atlantic pax.

 

Peter

On my 1973 plans Six Deck Indoor Pool is marked for first class only. Seven Deck indoor pool has a separate elevator and stairwell arrangement. They are basically otherwise duplicates of each other. At first I thought that the indoor pool was only one pool covering two decks like I have seen on other ships. On current deck plans there is only one lift at the rear of Two Deck that I assume services Six and Seven Decks. However in the current Cunard brochure the old Six Deck pool has been taken over by the Royal Spa there is a Six Deck Medical Facility and the Seven Deck still has an indoor pool. I have been on the ship twice in my life and never been to any of those places.To be quite honest I never paid much attention to the idiosyncracies of the divisions that were built into the ship. I was too young to remember the ship back when it was newly built.

[guernseyguy]

On my 1973 plans Six Deck Indoor Pool is marked for first class only. Seven Deck indoor pool has a separate elevator and stairwell arrangement. They are basically otherwise duplicates of each other. At first I thought that the indoor pool was only one pool covering two decks like I have seen on other ships. On current deck plans there is only one lift at the rear of Two Deck that I assume services Six and Seven Decks. However in the current Cunard brochure the old Six Deck pool has been taken over by the Royal Spa there is a Six Deck Medical Facility and the Seven Deck still has an indoor pool. I have been on the ship twice in my life and never been to any of those places.To be quite honest I never paid much attention to the idiosyncracies of the divisions that were built into the ship. I was too young to remember the ship back when it was newly built.

 

The seven deck pool is accessed via the C stairway, while the six deck pool is via the F - interesting that the First Class pool was from the F staircase - I'd guessed the other way round - given the C lift goes up to the Grill room - perhaps the QE2's deck plans even didn't make complete sense as a two class ship!

 

Peter

[planetcadillac]

Actually it was AMERICAN immigration rules which led to the rigid segregation between the classes (someting which is conveniently forgotten today)......with 'Third Class' going through Ellis Island the shipping companies options were either to keep the classes severely apart - so First/Second would not 'catch' anything from 'Third' and could disembark in Manhattan..... or have the whole ship clear through Ellis Island......Similarly it was the AMERICANS who argued for a 3 class QE2.....

 

Peter

I think perhaps that might have been true back in the early part of the 20th century, but US immigration laws were changed significantly in the 1920s and Ellis Island was closed by 1954. Immigration by Eurpeans dropped off significantly after WWII, and certainly by the time the QE2 was launched the anticipated reality of transatlantic immigrants couldn't have been more than a trickle. When the Andrea Doria sank in 1956 it held a fair amount of westbound immigrants but those were almost exclusively Italian (the Andrea Doria was an Italian ship) and it was 1956. By the late 1960s people didn't take ships across the Atlantic unless they wanted to, it was cheaper and easier (hours versus days) to simply fly than sail.

 

While there might have been something with US immigration laws, there is no question that traditional British social custom has been to have groups arranged by class. The US has always been a country that has divided its people up by the almight dollar.

 

No ship line today except Cunard (to the best of my knowledge) assigns dining based on the grade of cabin you select. The QM2 was designed this way even while being owned by the American-based Carnival outfit whose other ships are completely open. Without commenting on my own personal opinion of the concept, clearly it is of British/European persuasian. Some lines, like NCL (Norwegian) have advanced a totally open style of dining called Freestyle you eat where you want when you want regardless of where you lay your head down for the night. I personally will be taking an NCL cruise this December so I will be able to compare this Freestyle experience with more traditional experience.

 

Eventually we are going to take a ride on the QM2 and hopefully one last trip on the QE2. Two times been on the QE2 both times M class. If we can we would like to spring for Caronia at least to see what the difference is and maybe get a taste of a nice room. There is no way I could afford Princess but I would love to one day.

[guernseyguy]

While there might have been something with US immigration laws, there is no question that traditional British social custom has been to have groups arranged by class. The US has always been a country that has divided its people up by the almight dollar.

 

Thats much the same thing isn't it? - the genius of the British 'upper class' was to be able to incorporate the newly enriched into their ranks, while pretending to stay the same - in truth changing all the time. And let us not forget that Cunard was (and is) a line marketed at Americans - so however much one may wish to believe in a 'classless' America, the evidence says otherwise - as recent sad events in New Orleans have graphically demonstrated. Finally, back on the QE2 it was Liverpool that had to persuade New York to go to two classes instead of three - not the other way round.

 

Peter

[planetcadillac]

Thats much the same thing isn't it? - the genius of the British 'upper class' was to be able to incorporate the newly enriched into their ranks, while pretending to stay the same - in truth changing all the time. And let us not forget that Cunard was (and is) a line marketed at Americans - so however much one may wish to believe in a 'classless' America, the evidence says otherwise - as recent sad events in New Orleans have graphically demonstrated. Finally, back on the QE2 it was Liverpool that had to persuade New York to go to two classes instead of three - not the other way round.

 

Peter

I read that point in the QE2 book by Captain Warwick. However it had to do with the level of accomodation. On past ships, the lowest/tourist level of accomodation often did not have private facilities, often had bunk beds for multiple berths, etc. With the advent of more modern and up to date designs, basic creature comforts became universal. The QE2 was the first large ship built with private facilities in all the cabins, fully airconditioned, etc.etc. Thus as a consequence in reality there were only two real ways to travel, basic tourist which is like a Holiday Inn, or opulent First Class. Everyone basically got the same thing but First Class got extra plushness, a bit more room, and a bit more attentive service. Back in the early days, say like on the Titanic (I use the example because for a famous ship, it is well documented and makes a good example) the differences between the classes is enormous. First Class on the Titanic was almost beyond regal as you can see from pictures of the ship rivals even the best accomodations of today. Most all first class cabins had private facilities and that ship even sported the first usage of private balconies. Second Class was comparably to First Class on many ships at that time and most cabins had shared facilities, it was comfortable. Steering was very basic. No fancy wood panelling, facilities shared by more people, and unless you were say a family of four, you were almost always grouped together in a cabin with other travellers.

 

Of course by the time the QE2 was designed in the 1960s, the immigration trade had diminished to a real non-existant level and with the advent of modern design and living standards there really was no longer a serious difference between the accomodations - each cabin was basically well-appointed, had private facilities, air conditioned, and every travelling party had their own cabin. I am not sure when the last time a line sold a cabin based on multiple accomodation. Today cruise lines often group disparate passengers together - especially on singles' cruises and the like, but that is a totally different rationale than had been done historically. So really in reality you only had two levels basic mass-market and a group of super plush. To do more classes was real to split hairs and over complicate. While the QE2 could have been done as a three-class, based on how the ship was launched the reality would have not been much difference between the 2nd & 3rd class.

 

Separating people also tends to impose limits in flexibility of design and ties us resources that could otherwise be used to improve the whole lot. Without digressing on another tangit, that was an argument used to end the practice of segretation in the US in the south during the 1960s as having duplicate facilities for different groups of people wasted alot of time and money. Cruise ships today, and the QM2 is an example of this, are built almost classless, and its not hard to see why. Not only is today's society resistant to segregation of people in general, but it gives the lines more options in design of the ship, creates more general public rooms, and the lines get more out of a ship. On a ship the size of the QM2, it is almost necessary to have restaurant division anyways, it would be impossible to accomodate fixed seating in one restaurant, so it is practical to break up restaurant assignments by cabin as well as continuing the Cunard tradition of restaurant style by grade. To my knowledge Cunard is the only major ship line that makes a real differentiation in dining.

 

ME personally, I am not a big food gourmand. I enjoy nice things but I tend not to put a large value on fancy dining or preparation as much as someone else when sizing up a ship or a cruise. So when I book a cabin on the QE2 or the QM2 the restaurant choice is less of a factor - I have been on the QE2 twice and found M1-M2 cabins more than adequate. Not that I wouldn't enjoy a comfortable Q-grade suite but I wouldn't necessarily do it for the restaurant. Which is why I believe I would enjoy the QM2 very much. On the QE2 there are five distinct regular dining venues, QG, PG, BG, Caronia, and Mauretania. While on the QM2 there is just 3 the QG, PG, and Britannia, where the Britannia accomodates the vast vast majority of the passengers. With the lowest grade cabin starting out at 194 sq. ft. which is equivalent to a C2 QE2 cabin I personally would probably never book a Grill cabin on the QM2.

 

Which is why I am excited to go on the QM2 one day. Yes I have read reviews of sometimes erratic services levels and sometimes slow service in the Britannia restaurant but the QM2 really offers good value for the money. Especially these days the rates are reasonable and you get alot. While the QE2 is traditional, quirky, and interesting from a historical standpoint I am certainly looking forward to a trip on the QM2. Of course cabin selection on the QM2 is almost a non event you just decide whether you want inside, outside, window or balcony. No need to scan old deck plans and consult past reviews to see what kind of cabin you are going to get. Of course that takes away a bit of the charm of that endeavor but the QM2 is a palace.

[guernseyguy]

While the QE2 could have been done as a three-class, based on how the ship was launched the reality would have not been much difference between the 2nd & 3rd class.

 

Which is why, in the end, they decided to do away with the intermediate 'cabin class' on the QE2 - though its still good fun playing 'spot the lobbies/stair towers'. While conditions on early 20th century liners like Titanic for third class would appear very spartan to us, lets not forget that for those travelling in them, they would have been very comfortable - warm, running hot and cold water, basic but good food, clean, sanitary washing facilities - possibly very different from, and very much better than the lives they were leaving behind.

 

Peter

[dougnewmanatsea]

The QE2 was the first large ship built with private facilities in all the cabins, fully airconditioned, etc.etc.

Actually, she was far from the first... All through the 1960s and even in the 1950s ships were built with these features.

 

By the time QE2 was introduced, all of this was commonplace in newly built ships.

 

First Class on the Titanic was almost beyond regal as you can see from pictures of the ship rivals even the best accomodations of today.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that - certainly no air-conditioning of course, but also very few cabins with private facs among other things.

 

every travelling party had their own cabin.

Singles in tourist-class would certainly have most often shared a cabin with at least one other person, even on QE2.

 

And of course this is even possible today, though single occupancy of double cabins is more common than when ships were being used as transport.

 

it would be impossible to accomodate fixed seating in one restaurant

This is done on the VOYAGER-class ships with much greater passenger capacity than QM2 (though they are not as large physically).

 

With the lowest grade cabin starting out at 194 sq. ft.

Actually, standard insides on QM2 are 157 sq ft. At least up until very recently, most Cunard publicity quoted 194 sq ft but this is incorrect.

 

194 sq ft is the size of a standard balcony cabin on QM2 (without balcony). Most if not all of the standard outsides are actually a bit bigger as they include space that would otherwise be a balcony.

[planetcadillac]

Oh I am sure - I have read about the Andrea Doria (the fabled Italian liner that sank in 1956) and when she was launched in 1953 she was a marvel of modernity. Fully air conditioned and the first ship to have three pools one for each class of service. However even then there were still significant differences between the classes but much less so than historically. If you booked First and Second Class on the Doria you always got your own cabin, all First Class cabins had private facilities and most Second did. Third/Tourist passengers were grouped together unless they specifically paid for only one cabin, and had shared facilities. Class divisions were enforced and the ship was specifically built with permanent divisions. The Doria itself sank in 1956 but later Italian ships did many one-class cruises to sunny destinations. The Doria's identical twin lasted until the 1970s, how they overcame those physical barriers to cruise one-class is unknown to me.

 

Well as technology advanced and the differences in the level of comfort between the room diminished people began to perceive differences in classes less so as time went on. So the advantages of booking a higher class became less and less so since most of the facilities were duplicates of each other. Of course as the 1960s wore on social mores dictated loosening of the social structure so much as today that people mix up so much its hard to tell sometimes who has and who doesn't.

 

Of course the QE2 has 100+ or so single occupancy cabins while the QM2, along with most other ships, has none. Single travellers now almost always travel alone in a cabin although they pay supplements of between 50-100% of the original double occupancy fare. Some of the more purely social cruiselines like Carnival, etc. have an extensive array of singles` oriented cruises that have cabin sharing programs.

 

Of course the QE2 eventually became a one-class ship year-round by 1976 I believe and of course the QM2 being built exclusively as a one-class ship.

[dougnewmanatsea]

If you booked First and Second Class on the Doria you always got your own cabin

I'm not so sure about that. I would certainly expect that in cabin class sharing cabins was normal.

 

The Doria's identical twin lasted until the 1970s, how they overcame those physical barriers to cruise one-class is unknown to me.

Quite simply, she didn't.

 

As I recall, COLOMBO did one cruise during her entire career with Italia.

 

Until the very end (MICHELANGELO and RAFFAELLO), Italia remained dedicated to three-class ships with rigid physical barriers and no regard whatsoever given to cruising. This is a very significant reason why not one former Italia vessel went on to have anything of a successful cruising career after their demise in the late 1970s.

 

That said, there were many ships which were designed as rigidly three-class vessels that did go on to have successful cruising careers, after major refits. This wasn't the case with any of the Italia vessels though.

 

It is also worth noting that Italia served something of a different market than Cunard or CGT or other such lines. There was actually quite a lot of post-war emigration to the Americas from Italy (Southern Italy particularly) and tourist-class on the Italia vessels was quite important for this purpose. There is even the rather unusual case of Italian migrant farm workers who seasonally moved back and forth between Italy and South America taking advantage of the reverse seasonality in the Nothern and Southern Hemisphere.

 

So cabin-class was necessary on Italia partially as a way of separating the middle-class tourists from the emigrants. The lack of emigration from Nothern European countries after WWII made having three classes quite unnecessary once comfort levels had reached heights in tourist-class that, pre-war, would have been considered cabin-class. In Cunard's case this didn't happen until QE2 but for other lines it happened much earlier. HAL was the leader in this aspect, doing away with cabin-class post-war, building the virtually all-tourist-class RYNDAM and MAASDAM in 1951 and 1952 respectively (North Atlantic Passenger Conference rules were the only reason for the token first-class in these ships) and then going further with the most luxurious tourist-class in the world on STATENDAM in 1957. Tourist-class on STATENDAM or on ROTTERDAM of 1959 was easily more comfortable than cabin-class 20 years earlier.

 

And yet Cunard continued on with antique notions of tourist-class all the way through until QE2. Even as early as the late 1950s, the only reason for cabin-class on the QUEENs was simply that tourist-class was so dated and so Spartan that the gap between it and first-class would have been huge. The fact is that QE2 represented virtually no advance in passenger comfort at all unless you completely ignore everyone other than Cunard. While in style and design she was at the absolute cutting edge, all the supposed advancements in comfort had already been done many years earlier by companies not stuck in the past as Cunard were.

 

Of course the QE2 eventually became a one-class ship year-round by 1976

In theory, "classes" remained until the mid-'90s but of course virtual "run of ship" privileges were extended to passengers in the awkwardly named "Transatlantic Class" (were first-class passengers not travelling across the Atlantic as well?) well before then... Not sure just when though. I suspect it was late '70s/early '80s.

[planetcadillac]

I see what you mean - and I appreciate your answers. I am far too young to remember those days back into the 50s etc the age of the classic liners.

 

Well without digressing into a discussion of Italian ships per se, I would recommend a book that I own by William H Miller, called Picture History Of The Andrea Doria. Not just about the Andrea Doria but every Italian vessel from the dawn of the 20th century to a mention of the current "Italian-influenced" but hardly Italian Costa Cruise Line. Speaking of which, Bill Miller will be doing several QM2 Connexions during this winter.

 

Now why would HAL build a mostly only tourist class ship? With people who have discussed the Titanic - it is thought of by some that Third Class "Steerage" back in the day, was actually more profitable for the lines than first class, on a per passenger basis.

 

Surely one of the biggest changes or advancements or however you want to call it since it can be good and bad is the standardization of cabins.