Insight on the change from formal to evening chic

[Ma Bell]

At least they are being consistent when they threaten to change lines. Many times the formal dress crowd have said that one should either accept the dress code or choose another line. Now that the code has changed, it appears "the shoe is on the other foot" and they will either have to accept it or they can choose another line. The problem with that strategy is that there are fewer and fewer options to choose from. Those pesky millennials are everywhere.

 

Has this change in policy made you decide to book your first Celebrity cruise yet?

[Dave.ca]

One of the more common beliefs on cruise critic is that those who post here are representative of the demographic that cruise lines are interested in attracting.

 

Before I retired and became irrelevant, I was in retail for 40 years. Customer focused business, retail. One of the may rules I lived by was:

 

It's easie to keep the customer you already have, than to win over a new one.

 

That doesn't mean you don't work to attract new customers. But it also doesn't mean you toss your current customers overboard in the process. (Nice metaphor, eh?)

 

Changes that alienate a significant portion of your customer base are never wise. But when you do undertake them, you had better be sure of your results. And if the demo you're chasing is as demonstrably fickle as the millennials, you had better be damned sure.

 

I am not suggesting that, on it's own, the formal night change is of this level, as much as I am commenting on your suggestion that the CC demo is of no interest to the cruise lines. That would be exceptionally foolish.

 

Having said that, does the cruise industry fully recognize the value of this demographic? Probably not, judging from recent actions. And they may yet rue the neglect.

[jan-n-john]

Well said.

 

The cruise industry as a whole has made changes over these last few years to entice a younger demographic. And anyone who has cruised recently knows they are, so far, failing.

 

Wrong. They aren't trying to attract a younger demographic per se; rather, they are trying to attract a demographic whose preferences are "younger" if you will than the preferences of the dinosaur set. The preference for casual dress developed among 20 somethings back in the 80's and 90's. Those 20 somethings are now 40 and 50 somethings. Those are the ones they not only are trying to attract, but must attract to continue to be successful for the coming decade or so. Contrary to what you said, those folks certainly are taking cruises, often with the Carnivals of the world -- now the Celebrities of the world are seeking to bring them over. All part of the natural flow of things.

[1SGCruiser]

If they lose one of their frequent cruisers who sail regularly and conservatively about 8 to 10 weeks a year, they will need to find 8 to 10 one week cruisers to take their place. Good luck with that. Personally, I think they are pushing the envelope with quite a few of them now. People who wouldn't even look at another cruise line are now looking.

 

According to what I've read recently, (these are of course data-based generalizations), although the baby boomers are more frequent cruisers, they are not the biggest spenders. So the demographic segment (and money) that Celebrity and other cruise lines are going for is not the boomers.

 

Even though I'll be 67 in a few weeks, from my standpoint, the Celebrity Chic dress policy is a very good thing. It allows everyone to dress within the new guidelines, as they wish. Only those who want to be the 'clothing police' and have everyone follow their opinions of what is proper will have an issue with it.

[Dave.ca]

Wrong. They aren't trying to attract a younger demographic per se; rather, they are trying to attract a demographic whose preferences are "younger" if you will than the preferences of the dinosaur set. The preference for casual dress developed among 20 somethings back in the 80's and 90's. Those 20 somethings are now 40 and 50 somethings. Those are the ones they not only are trying to attract, but must attract to continue to be successful for the coming decade or so. Contrary to what you said, those folks certainly are taking cruises, often with the Carnivals of the world -- now the Celebrities of the world are seeking to bring them over. All part of the natural flow of things.

 

Well, that 's rather emphatic. Let's see...

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Millennials (also known as the Millennial Generation[1] or Generation Y) are the demographic cohort following Generation X. There are no precise dates when the generation starts and ends; most researchers and commentators use birth years ranging from the early 1980s to the early 2000s.

 

Okay, let's use 1980 as the birth year -- the earliest of this definition. It is currently 2015 by my calendar. That puts the oldest millennial at 35, not 50. It is my opinion that, on the lines I cruise, Celebrity and Princess, there has not been a significant increase in passengers 35 and younger over the last 10 years.

 

As for those who were in their twenties back in the eighties and are in their forties and fifties now... Guess what. They are not Millennials. They are... me. They are people on CC. They are NOT who I am taking about when I refer to the Millennial demographic.

 

I cannot, of course, speak to something as ephemeral as how young someone's preferences are. Nor should any company tie their future to something so tenuous.

 

Just a dinosaur's two (devalued) cents. Not declaring you Wrong or anything.

 

 

 

Hmm.. apologies. I just noticed that you were commenting on a different post than I thought. I do stand by what I said, but the lecture on Millennials must have seemed confusing. I suspect we simply disagree on the definition of "younger". To you, this is 40's-50's. To me it is 20's-30's. I'm actually quite flattered to be (barely) within your definition.

 

Cheers.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Dave.ca

[Dave.ca]

Oh, and as far as the dress code goes, I'm really quite ambivalent. The last few cruises we've packed light and opted out of formal night with specialty dining.

 

:)

[RocketMan275]

Those pesky Millennials are everywhere except on cruise ships. From my experience I don't see too many of them on board on a regular basis. There was never a need to choose another cruise line since Celebrity provided very nice options for the couple of nights that they had formal nights.

 

Isn't that the reason the cruise lines have chosen to court the millennials, to get them on board?

 

If those options were so nice, then I'm sure you would have supported holding formal nights in those 'nice options', correct?

 

I wouldn't change cruise lines because they changed to chic nights but I would change if the quality of the product was greatly diminished. It's very cavalier to think that you have won some sort of contest. Hopefully this isn't just one more loss for everyone. That remains to be seen.

 

As cavalier as telling someone there are some other very nice options?

 

As far as people dying off, of course that's what happens but the people who remain are then the new "older folks" who have the time to travel. They are just stuck with what just might be an inferior experience, but I guess what they don't know won't hurt them.

 

That assumes that doing away with formal nights results in an inferior experience. The millennials would disagree.

[RocketMan275]

Before I retired and became irrelevant, I was in retail for 40 years. Customer focused business, retail. One of the may rules I lived by was:

 

It's easie to keep the customer you already have, than to win over a new one.

 

That doesn't mean you don't work to attract new customers. But it also doesn't mean you toss your current customers overboard in the process. (Nice metaphor, eh?)

 

Changes that alienate a significant portion of your customer base are never wise. But when you do undertake them, you had better be sure of your results. And if the demo you're chasing is as demonstrably fickle as the millennials, you had better be damned sure.

 

I am not suggesting that, on it's own, the formal night change is of this level, as much as I am commenting on your suggestion that the CC demo is of no interest to the cruise lines. That would be exceptionally foolish.

 

Having said that, does the cruise industry fully recognize the value of this demographic? Probably not, judging from recent actions. And they may yet rue the neglect.

 

I don't think anyone has intended to claim the CC demo is of no interest to the cruise lines. The point I've seen made is that the current CC demo will be of less and less interest to the cruise lines as time goes on.

 

They really have no choice. The current CC demo is rapidly ageing and diminishing in numbers. The millennials are ageing as well but will soon dominate the commercial world. It's very much a changing of the guard like we witnessed when the baby boomers took over from the "greatest generation". So too will the millennials take over from the baby boomers.

 

Gala Nights is a fine example of switching the emphasis from the boomers to the millennials. I'm sure most market research would support the argument that just the words "formal night" is a turnoff to the millennials who probably would be attracted to something called a "Gala Nights". When Holland changed their dress code, they were very careful to insist that they really hadn't changed anything in an attempt to avoid their existing customer base.

 

You are right. The millennials are probably fickle. But, that doesn't change the fact that the cruise lines have no choice but to switch their strategies.

[jan-n-john]

Well, that 's rather emphatic. Let's see...

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Millennials (also known as the Millennial Generation[1] or Generation Y) are the demographic cohort following Generation X. There are no precise dates when the generation starts and ends; most researchers and commentators use birth years ranging from the early 1980s to the early 2000s.

 

Okay, let's use 1980 as the birth year -- the earliest of this definition. It is currently 2015 by my calendar. That puts the oldest millennial at 35, not 50. It is my opinion that, on the lines I cruise, Celebrity and Princess, there has not been a significant increase in passengers 35 and younger over the last 10 years.

 

As for those who were in their twenties back in the eighties and are in their forties and fifties now... Guess what. They are not Millennials. They are... me. They are people on CC. They are NOT who I am taking about when I refer to the Millennial demographic.

 

I cannot, of course, speak to something as ephemeral as how young someone's preferences are. Nor should any company tie their future to something so tenuous.

 

Just a dinosaur's two (devalued) cents. Not declaring you Wrong or anything.

 

I never said anything about millennials, nor did Celebrity. You and others did. It's an arbitrary term. I specified the age group I was referring to without pointless and misleading descriptors.

 

You said you were in retail for 40 years. I would demure from putting up the companies in the retail sector as any sort of paragon of marketing prowess or understanding -- anyone can see the unending problems retail companies have always had had in keeping customers and staying in business. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Sears executive in the early 70's when I wanted to interview them for an international shipping study I was doing. He very arrogantly refused, saying I only wanted to talk to Sears because "they are the best in the business." We all can see how well that worked out. Look what's happening to Wal-mart now. No thanks.

 

You also overlook a key difference between keeping your retail customers and the situation facing a cruise line. A retailer can offer wildly different products to different customers. A cruise line, with its policies on dining dress, is much more in a "one size fits all" situation (nice metaphor eh?). It has to pick the one policy that will work best and go with it for everybody. So the retail analogy simply doesn't inform a cruise line in these matters.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Celebrity knows what it is doing and has made the right choice to maximize its profits going forward. There is also no doubt in my mind that most of the discussion on these boards is basically uninformed hot air. PS I'm a RCL stockholder, I'm in my 70's, and I wouldn't touch a retail stock with a 20 foot pole. Just MHO.

Edited November 29, 2015 by jan-n-john

[Dave.ca]

I never said anything about millennials, nor did Celebrity. You and others did. It's an arbitrary term. I specified the age group I was referring to without pointless and misleading descriptors.

 

You said you were in retail for 40 years. I would demure from putting up the companies in the retail sector as any sort of paragon of marketing prowess or understanding -- anyone can see the unending problems retail companies have always had had in keeping customers and staying in business. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Sears executive in the early 70's when I wanted to interview them for an international shipping study I was doing. He very arrogantly refused, saying I only wanted to talk to Sears because "they are the best in the business." We all can see how well that worked out. Look what's happening to Wal-mart now. No thanks.

 

You also overlook a key difference between keeping your retail customers and the situation facing a cruise line. A retailer can offer wildly different products to different customers. A cruise line, with its policies on dining dress, is much more in a "one size fits all" situation (nice metaphor eh?). It has to pick the one policy that will work best and go with it for everybody. So the retail analogy simply doesn't inform a cruise line in these matters.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Celebrity knows what it is doing and has made the right choice to maximize its profits going forward. There is also no doubt in my mind that most of the discussion on these boards is basically uninformed hot air. PS I'm a RCL stockholder, I'm in my 70's, and I wouldn't touch a retail stock with a 20 foot pole. Just MHO.

 

 

 

 

 

Your original comment:

 

"One of the more common beliefs on cruise critic is that those who post here are representative of the demographic that cruise lines are interested in attracting."

 

was in response to my comment on a post that directly referenced millennials.

 

That made it about millennials.

 

 

Your suggestion that the retail experience is invalid because "anyone can see the unending problems retail companies have always had had in keeping customers and staying in business" is needlessly and inaccurately all-inclusive (nice metaphor, eh?).

 

Your statement:

 

There is also no doubt in my mind that most of the discussion on these boards is basically uninformed hot air.

 

will go without comment from me.

 

 

Cheers.

[RocketMan275]

Has this change in policy made you decide to book your first Celebrity cruise yet?

 

I tend to book fairly far in advance. I've had a cruise booked on Celebrity since Dec 2014. This change in policy has made me look more favorably toward Celebrity. FWIW, a similar change on Holland has resulted in a decision to book a Holland cruise following the Celebrity cruise. It will be interesting to compare the two lines.

[Dave.ca]

I don't think anyone has intended to claim the CC demo is of no interest to the cruise lines.

 

Actually, that's exactly what was implied in a message that has since vanished from the board. It is still quoted in my message 127:

 

"One of the more common beliefs on cruise critic is that those who post here are representative of the demographic that cruise lines are interested in attracting."

Edited November 29, 2015 by Dave.ca

[RocketMan275]

Actually, that's exactly what was stated in a message that has since vanished from the board. It is still quoted in my message 127:

 

"One of the more common beliefs on cruise critic is that those who post here are representative of the demographic that cruise lines are interested in attracting."

 

Actually, that was one of my posts and it still here (#124).

 

I also said: "I don't think anyone has intended to claim the CC demo is of no interest to the cruise lines. The point I've seen made is that the current CC demo will be of less and less interest to the cruise lines as time goes on."

 

The two posts are not inconsistent. There is the current CC demo and the demo the cruise lines are interested in attracting. Two different demos. One is currently on board and the cruise lines are trying to get the other one on board.

Edited November 29, 2015 by RocketMan275

[bottomfeeder]

Hey, what about GenX? Doesn't it get any love from the cruise lines? As someone born in the early 60s I am, depending on what definition you read, in BOTH the Baby Boom generation ('46-'64) and GenX ('60-'80). And yet, whenever anyone talks about baby boomers they are talking about people significantly older than me, whereas my kids are Millenials...and probably not too ready to start cruising yet.

 

Are we sure it isn't GenX who is currently the prime market for cruise companies? Right now these folks are 35-55 years old.

[jan-n-john]

Your original comment:

 

"One of the more common beliefs on cruise critic is that those who post here are representative of the demographic that cruise lines are interested in attracting."

 

was in response to my comment on a post that directly referenced millennials.

 

That made it about millennials.

 

Sorry wasn't me who said that. It was Rocketman in # 124, which in fact is still here.

 

 

Your suggestion that the retail experience is invalid because "anyone can see the unending problems retail companies have always had had in keeping customers and staying in business" is needlessly and inaccurately all-inclusive (nice metaphor, eh?).

 

Disagree. The retail industry, on the whole, has shown itself to be unable to predict how consumers will react to its initiatives. History clearly and unequivocally bears this out. it has always been a marketing research disaster zone, and remains to this day. JCP's recent trouble is another example that comes to mind.

 

Your statement:

 

There is also no doubt in my mind that most of the discussion on these boards is basically uninformed hot air.

 

will go without comment from me.

 

 

Cheers.

 

Does that mean we finally agree on something?

Edited November 29, 2015 by jan-n-john

[Dave.ca]

Actually, that was one of my posts and it still here (#124).

 

I also said: "I don't think anyone has intended to claim the CC demo is of no interest to the cruise lines. The point I've seen made is that the current CC demo will be of less and less interest to the cruise lines as time goes on."

 

The two posts are not inconsistent. There is the current CC demo and the demo the cruise lines are interested in attracting. Two different demos. One is currently on board and the cruise lines are trying to get the other one on board.

 

So it is. I confused you with jan-n-john who I am in heated debate with. :)

 

Can't keep track of multiple "conversation". Maybe I should make way for the Millennial Horde. :)

 

Cheers

[Dave.ca]

 

Does that mean we finally agree on something?

 

To disagree..

 

:)

[RocketMan275]

Hey, what about GenX? Doesn't it get any love from the cruise lines? As someone born in the early 60s I am, depending on what definition you read, in BOTH the Baby Boom generation ('46-'64) and GenX ('60-'80). And yet, whenever anyone talks about baby boomers they are talking about people significantly older than me, whereas my kids are Millenials...and probably not too ready to start cruising yet.

 

Are we sure it isn't GenX who is currently the prime market for cruise companies? Right now these folks are 35-55 years old.

 

You're probably correct but how would it change any of the points if you were to substitute GenX for Millennials?

[RocketMan275]

So it is. I confused you with jan-n-john who I am in heated debate with. :)

 

Can't keep track of multiple "conversation". Maybe I should make way for the Millennial Horde. :)

 

Cheers

 

As an older baby boomer, I find that I am often confused. What was it we were we talking about anyway? I hope it wasn't something too important.:)

[Dave.ca]

You're probably correct but how would it change any of the points if you were to substitute GenX for Millennials?

 

It's all just words. The cruise industry wants to attract more "younger" people. We can get caught up on that word because "younger" can me one thing to a 70-year old another to a 50-year old etc.

 

Personally, I feel that RADICALLY changing the cruise experience to market to those under 35 (arbitrary number = those still employed with young families and limited (2-4 weeks) vacation time) AT THE EXPENSE of "mature" cruisers (the vast majority of their current clientele) is folly. Yes, you want to ensure your future, but not while burning down the present.

 

Is changing formal night (the original topic of this thread, remember?) radical? Not to most people, especially if the option to dress formally is still there. Though it may impact some peoples' enjoyment of the night.

 

It's what comes next that could be concerning. And next. I intend to be cruising another 20 years (health permitting). I won't be doing it on Carnival, and I won't be doing it on a line that feels they need to remake themselves in Carnival's image.

[jan-n-john]

So it is. I confused you with jan-n-john who I am in heated debate with. :)

 

Can't keep track of multiple "conversation". Maybe I should make way for the Millennial Horde. :)

 

Cheers

 

Heated? I thought we were just having a friendly chit-chat! :)

[RocketMan275]

It's all just words. The cruise industry wants to attract more "younger" people. We can get caught up on that word because "younger" can me one thing to a 70-year old another to a 50-year old etc.

 

Personally, I feel that RADICALLY changing the cruise experience to market to those under 35 (arbitrary number = those still employed with young families and limited (2-4 weeks) vacation time) AT THE EXPENSE of "mature" cruisers (the vast majority of their current clientele) is folly. Yes, you want to ensure your future, but not while burning down the present.

 

Is changing formal night (the original topic of this thread, remember?) radical? Not to most people, especially if the option to dress formally is still there. Though it may impact some peoples' enjoyment of the night.

 

It's what comes next that could be concerning. And next. I intend to be cruising another 20 years (health permitting). I won't be doing it on Carnival, and I won't be doing it on a line that feels they need to remake themselves in Carnival's image.

 

We're in close agreement.

I'm not urging radical, wholesale, overnight changes to the cruising experience either. I am stating one usually loses when one fights demographics. It will happen gradually at first, but the pace will increase.

 

I support formal nights when they are optional. I understand that there are those that do like to dress up. My issues are with those who insist that their enjoyment of the evening will be ruined should they see someone in shorts. Doesn't the cruising world need a few bad examples to make the rest feel better about themselves?

 

I'd like to think that I'll be cruising in 20 years. My planning doesn't go beyond 15. The wife and I are fortunate in that we're quite content to find a quiet place and let the world go by. It's quite likely we wouldn't even notice if the ship were downright infested with Millennials or GenX or baby boomers have jousting tournaments on electric scooters. We'll still enjoy the cruise.

[1SGCruiser]

We're in close agreement.

 

I'm not urging radical, wholesale, overnight changes to the cruising experience either. I am stating one usually loses when one fights demographics. It will happen gradually at first, but the pace will increase.

 

 

 

I support formal nights when they are optional. I understand that there are those that do like to dress up. My issues are with those who insist that their enjoyment of the evening will be ruined should they see someone in shorts. Doesn't the cruising world need a few bad examples to make the rest feel better about themselves?

 

 

 

I'd like to think that I'll be cruising in 20 years. My planning doesn't go beyond 15. The wife and I are fortunate in that we're quite content to find a quiet place and let the world go by. It's quite likely we wouldn't even notice if the ship were downright infested with Millennials or GenX or baby boomers have jousting tournaments on electric scooters. We'll still enjoy the cruise.

 

 

 

Excellent!

 

 

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