How does the Legend do it?

[chengkp75]

When I was on the Conquest repo from New Orleans to San Juan which went next to Miami, there were several foreign couples we spoke to that were btb although we were not allowed to go btb and other Americans on our roll call were also denied to go btb. (This cruise did not go to the ABC islands).

 

My opinion on this (strictly opinion, not fact) is that they booked this cruise on a foreign web site instead of on the US site and the foreign site may not have it in their rules and regulations that the cruise line can pass the $300 PVSA fine on to the passenger and that the cruise line makes enough off of this cruise that they simply allow it and pay the fine themselves.

 

If the cruise line was found to have knowingly booked a cruise in violation of the PVSA, they can get into further problems with CBP than just the $300 fine. Was there a day in between the two cruises, or did the second leg leave the same day it arrived in San Juan?

 

Besides, the Carnival ticket contract is the same regardless of where it is booked, I believe, and that is what controls the ability to pass the fine along, not the booking website or travel agent.

[tallyho8]

If the cruise line was found to have knowingly booked a cruise in violation of the PVSA, they can get into further problems with CBP than just the $300 fine. Was there a day in between the two cruises, or did the second leg leave the same day it arrived in San Juan?

 

The ship departed the same day it arrived. Are you trying to state that if the ship overnights in the port between the btbs then the PVSA does not apply?

 

If that was the case it seems that ships would overnight on some of these btb cruises and repositioning cruises instead of traveling all the way to the ABC Islands to get around the PVSA.

 

It seems like I read that this was still not allowed though.

 

I have read here on CC many times about passengers on Hawaiian cruises who wanted to get off the ship in Hilo for the night and get back on in Kona the next day. Some even said that they did this though it would be a violation of the PVSA.

Edited January 1, 2016 by tallyho8

[chengkp75]

The ship departed the same day it arrived. Are you trying to state that if the ship overnights in the port between the btbs then the PVSA does not apply?

 

If that was the case it seems that ships would overnight on some of these btb cruises and repositioning cruises instead of traveling all the way to the ABC Islands to get around the PVSA.

 

It seems like I read that this was still not allowed though.

 

I have read here on CC many times about passengers on Hawaiian cruises who wanted to get off the ship in Hilo for the night and get back on in Kona the next day. Some even said that they did this though it would be a violation of the PVSA.

 

With Puerto Rico being an exception to the PVSA, if they made you disembark and spend a night off the ship, then it would be a cruise to PR, which is exempt, and a cruise from PR, which is exempt.

 

And no, an overnight in Hawaii would not be a violation of PVSA.

 

But, yeah, I'm done beating this dead horse. PVSA has nothing to do with nationality.

Edited January 2, 2016 by chengkp75

[tallyho8]

With Puerto Rico being an exception to the PVSA, if they made you disembark and spend a night off the ship, then it would be a cruise to PR, which is exempt, and a cruise from PR, which is exempt.

 

And no, an overnight in Hawaii would not be a violation of PVSA.

 

But, yeah, I'm done beating this dead horse. PVSA has nothing to do with nationality.

 

I apologize to the OP if I am taking this thread in the wrong direction but since the PVSA was such an integral part of the answer and since most people know very little about this act, it seemed pertinent to discuss some of the regulations of this act. I do not mean for it to sound argumentative but simply for us to discuss the rules and find out what a passenger is allowed to do under the act and what he may not do.

 

I agree with you that the PVSA has nothing to do with nationality but was stating that some foreigners (and now I know some Americans also) were able to get around the rules without paying a fine for whatever reason.

 

A passenger on the Pride of America could debark in Hilo and get back on the ship in Kona the next day without violating the PVSA because it is an American flagged ship.

 

And a passenger on the Legend going from Vancouver to Honolulu could debark in Hilo without violating the PVSA but he would violate the PVSA when he got back on the next day in Kona because the Legend would be transporting him from Kona (a US city) to Honolulu (another US city).

 

Giving false information on this thread without correcting the info would leave readers to believe the false info and possibly booking cruises they are not allowed to book just to be notified at the last second, after they made all their plans, that they had to cancel a cruise.

 

False information is that a passenger can book a btb cruise from one US city to another if the ship stays overnight in a port whether or not that port has an exemption allowing you to travel to it from another US port without visiting a distant port.

 

The truth is that if you take a ship from one US port on a cruise and book another cruise on it that goes to another US port, you are in violation of the PVSA because it transports you from one US city to another US city.

 

Just because this ship's first cruise ends in any other port and it's next cruise starts in that port and transports you back to another US city it doesn't matter how long it stays in that port. It could stay in that port for 8 hours as most do or for 18 hours or 888 hours and it would still be a violation for it to take you to another non-exempt US port.

 

The Puerto Rico exemption only means that a passenger can travel to or from a US port to Puerto Rico without visiting a distant port. It has nothing to do with a ship transporting a passenger from one US port to another US port.

 

Below is a brief (but still very long) summary of the PVSA. Be sure to read the last sentence:

 

Passenger Services Act (United States)

 

This summary of the above act is courtesy of Princess Cruises)

It is important to be aware of the effect that the Passenger Services Act (PSA) has on certain combined itineraries. The Passenger Services Act prohibits ships of non-U.S. registry from embarking and disembarking passengers at two different U.S. ports.

Such travel would constitute point-to-point transportation between two U.S. ports, a practice prohibited on foreign flagged vessels. Virtually all cruise vessels are foreign-flagged; therefore must adhere to the requirements of the Passengers Services Act.

An exception to this general rule allows passengers to be transported between two U.S. ports if the cruise itinerary includes a port call at a “distant foreign port”.

Distant foreign ports do NOT include Canada, Mexico, Central America, Bermuda and most Caribbean islands. South America and the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao) do qualify as distant foreign ports.

The Passenger Services Act (PSA) became law in 1886 and has been a part of U.S. cabotage law ever since. The law was designed to protect the United States domestic transportation industries (as applicable to both merchant and passenger vessels). The PSA grants U.S. flagged vessels the right to transport cargo and passengers between U.S. ports.

Here are some examples of legal and illegal itineraries:

A cruise originating and terminating in Ft. Lauderdale is permitted since passengers were returned to their original port of embarkation and, thus, no point-to-point transportation occurred. A cruise originating in Ft. Lauderdale and terminating in Los Angeles is permitted providing that the cruise itinerary includes a South American port or one of the ABC (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao) islands.

A cruise originating in Los Angeles or Seattle and terminating in Whittier is NOT permitted since the cruise originates and terminates in different U.S. cities and does not call at a distant foreign port

Distant foreign ports do NOT include Canada, Mexico, Central America, Bermuda and most Caribbean islands. South America and the ABC islands do qualify as distant foreign ports.

In addition, passengers may travel between 2 U.S. ports if they travel on 2 different ships as Passenger Services Act violations are ship-specific. A violation occurs when a ship (not two ships) transports passengers between two different U.S. ports.

Even if the passengers disembark completely from the 1st voyage and then return to the pier to embark the 2nd voyage – it is still a violation of the PSA.

[chengkp75]

With Puerto Rico being an exception to the PVSA, if they made you disembark and spend a night off the ship, then it would be a cruise to PR, which is exempt, and a cruise from PR, which is exempt.

 

And no, an overnight in Hawaii would not be a violation of PVSA.

But, yeah, I'm done beating this dead horse. PVSA has nothing to do with nationality.

 

 

A passenger on the Pride of America could debark in Hilo and get back on the ship in Kona the next day without violating the PVSA because it is an American flagged ship.

 

And a passenger on the Legend going from Vancouver to Honolulu could debark in Hilo without violating the PVSA but he would violate the PVSA when he got back on the next day in Kona because the Legend would be transporting him from Kona (a US city) to Honolulu (another US city).

 

Giving false information on this thread without correcting the info would leave readers to believe the false info and possibly booking cruises they are not allowed to book just to be notified at the last second, after they made all their plans, that they had to cancel a cruise.

 

False information is that a passenger can book a btb cruise from one US city to another if the ship stays overnight in a port whether or not that port has an exemption allowing you to travel to it from another US port without visiting a distant port.

 

The truth is that if you take a ship from one US port on a cruise and book another cruise on it that goes to another US port, you are in violation of the PVSA because it transports you from one US city to another US city.

 

Just because this ship's first cruise ends in any other port and it's next cruise starts in that port and transports you back to another US city it doesn't matter how long it stays in that port. It could stay in that port for 8 hours as most do or for 18 hours or 888 hours and it would still be a violation for it to take you to another non-exempt US port.

 

The Puerto Rico exemption only means that a passenger can travel to or from a US port to Puerto Rico without visiting a distant port. It has nothing to do with a ship transporting a passenger from one US port to another US port.

 

 

This will be my final entry here, because of the accusation that I am giving false information which is just not true.

 

For the cruise to Puerto Rico, please read, carefully, my bolded portion of my quote above. If there was a night ashore, where no one was allowed to remain onboard between cruises, then it would be perfectly legal, as they would be two separate cruises (and sold that way) with a day in Puerto Rico in between, not a back to back.

 

For a foreign flag ship going from Vancouver to Honolulu, the cruise is sold as being from a foreign port to a US port. If a passenger misses (voluntarily or otherwise) an intermediate port and then rejoins before the final port, the voyage is considered as one voyage, so this would not be a violation of the PVSA. This is handled differently than a "downstream" (late embarkation) or "upstream" (early disembarkation) start or end to the voyage. Now, whether or not Carnival would give approval for this, using the PVSA as an excuse, is a different matter. Whenever the passenger manifest is changed during a voyage that ends in a US port, they must submit a new manifest to CBP for re-screening, with attendant cost, and for a closed loop cruise (which I know this isn't), it changes the clearance procedures that CBP uses at disembarkation. These CBP rules have changed in the last couple of years, and are why these "upstream and downstream" boardings are very rarely permitted. Very likely the cruise line's agents or crew have a note not to allow this to happen, and use the generic "Jones Act/PVSA" as the reason.

[chengkp75]

As a further note to your idea that some people can book these cruises and not have the fine passed to them, if it was that easy, wouldn't the cruise line just jack the fare by $300 for these cruises and let everyone do it? It's because the cruise lines cannot knowingly book a cruise that violates the PVSA, and if they were found to do it regularly, they would come under stricter sanctions by CBP, which could be as much as the full revenue of the cruise. This is what the Bahamas casino boat was facing when they were found in violation of the crew visa laws (not, admittedly PVSA) that caused the cruise to nowhere to disappear.

[tallyho8]

ashore[/b]' date=' where no one was allowed to remain onboard between cruises, then it would be perfectly legal, as they would be two separate cruises (and sold that way) with a day in Puerto Rico in between, not a back to back.

[/quote']

 

Sorry, but the PVSA clearly states "that a vessel can not transport a passenger from one US port to another US port, regardless of the number of separate cruises unless it visits a far away port". It has no length of time mentioned between cruises nor does it mention btbs. The last sentence of the PVSA that I posted above shows that it doesn't matter if it is two different cruises.

 

Now I am asking you to provide links to the information you are giving to show that you are correct. If you can do so I will certainly give you a sincere apology for doubting you.

[chengkp75]

Sorry, but the PVSA clearly states "that a vessel can not transport a passenger from one US port to another US port, regardless of the number of separate cruises unless it visits a far away port". It has no length of time mentioned between cruises nor does it mention btbs. The last sentence of the PVSA that I posted above shows that it doesn't matter if it is two different cruises.

 

Now I am asking you to provide links to the information you are giving to show that you are correct. If you can do so I will certainly give you a sincere apology for doubting you.

 

I could care less about your apology, and I'm not going to give up the time to debate this further. Just think about what you've said. Yes, the PVSA says that if the voyage is from one US port to another, even if sold as two separate cruises, it is considered one voyage. However, if the two cruises are not contiguous, then they are two different cruises, and both would be legal. Are you telling me that I could not take one cruise from say Texas to Puerto Rico, spend a week in Puerto Rico, and then if the same ship was having a cruise to Miami that I could not book that? Enough.

[StolidCruiser]

I could care less about your apology, and I'm not going to give up the time to debate this further. Just think about what you've said. Yes, the PVSA says that if the voyage is from one US port to another, even if sold as two separate cruises, it is considered one voyage. However, if the two cruises are not contiguous, then they are two different cruises, and both would be legal. Are you telling me that I could not take one cruise from say Texas to Puerto Rico, spend a week in Puerto Rico, and then if the same ship was having a cruise to Miami that I could not book that? Enough.

 

Your patience is as admirable as your knowledge and integrity. Sometimes debating the dense novice is an exercise in futility.

[tallyho8]

However, if the two cruises are not contiguous, then they are two different cruises, and both would be legal. Are you telling me that I could not take one cruise from say Texas to Puerto Rico, spend a week in Puerto Rico, and then if the same ship was having a cruise to Miami that I could not book that?

 

I have emailed US Customs and Border Protection with your fictitious cruise scenario to determine if it violates the PVSA. Their response time is 2 - 3 weeks. I will post their reply when received.

[chengkp75]

I have emailed US Customs and Border Protection with your fictitious cruise scenario to determine if it violates the PVSA. Their response time is 2 - 3 weeks. I will post their reply when received.

 

Go for it. I'm working on a ship now, and internet time is limited, so I probably won't be back to continue this argument anyway. Hopefully, you also asked them about your scenario where non-US citizens are allowed to book a cruise in violation of the PVSA? I hope you were also clear, since you didn't seem to be in past posts, that no one was allowed to stay onboard between cruises, as I stated repeatedly, so it was not merely an overnight port stay for the ship, which I never claimed.

[tallyho8]

I have said in this thread several times that I have found nothing in the PVSA that allows foreigners to violate the PVSA. I just said that many do it and I don't know why.

 

There have been many posts on CC about people on btb cruises who had to leave the ship after the first cruise just to turn around and get back on it so I don't believe that that alone would cause them to be able to violate the PVSA.

 

Now if you are saying that EVERYONE has to stay off the ship overnight then there probably is no rule for that because that would be a fictitious scenario that never happens except when the ship is in dry dock.

 

I am cruising on the Dream from Puerto Rico to New Orleans on January 14 so I won't be able to report back what the answer from the CBP is until I get back.

Edited January 4, 2016 by tallyho8

[chengkp75]

I have said in this thread several times that I have found nothing in the PVSA that allows foreigners to violate the PVSA. I just said that many do it and I don't know why.

 

Then why didn't you ask this while you were corresponding with them? Perhaps that would clear up your misunderstanding about whether or not these folks actually were able to book a cruise that violated the PVSA.

 

There have been many posts on CC about people on btb cruises who had to leave the ship after the first cruise just to turn around and get back on it so I don't believe that that alone would cause them to be able to violate the PVSA.

 

Any cruise that ends in the US will have the back to back folks get off the ship to "zero the count" for CBP.

 

Now if you are saying that EVERYONE has to stay off the ship overnight then there probably is no rule for that because that would be a fictitious scenario that never happens except when the ship is in dry dock.

 

Not quite fictitious, as ships have done this before when they are changing routes in order to get the logistics lined up. So, you did not quote me completely when you queried the CBP, since you still don't understand me. But, if you say it never happens, then OK. ;)

 

I am cruising on the Dream from Puerto Rico to New Orleans on January 14 so I won't be able to report back what the answer from the CBP is until I get back.

 

Have a nice cruise.

Edited January 4, 2016 by chengkp75

[Quackattackaggie]

As a US diplomat working in an immigration section in the Caribbean, this thread has been very entertaining to me.

[cruiseonthebrain]

Ok wannabe lawyers and wannabe travel agents- all I really wanted to know was how could I book a cruise that included Alaska, Hawaii and Australia and New Zealand .

[tallyho8]

I guess this whole debate started in post #2 when I answered cruiseonthebrain's question and used the word "foreigners" instead of "people".

So I will change that one line in post #2 from:

But Americans can not book the btb from Honolulu to Seattle due to the Passenger Vessel Services Act though some foreigners have reported that they are allowed to do it.

To: But people can not book the btb from Honolulu to Seattle due to the Passenger Vessel Services Act though some people have reported that they have done it.

Now I believe that all the debaters will agree that my post #2 is completely accurate.