Technical Fire Discussion

[Cruise Cat]

Ruby I wondered about this too, but I was also concerned about some of the photographs soon afterward where you could see lots of ships personnel (didn't look like officers) in the rooms. Also, a lot of people were let back in their rooms and several took pictures. The fact that they were able to take pictures at an accident scene makes me wonder how closely supervised they were and how well protected the accident scene was overall. On the other hand, maybe they (cruiseline and investigators) have a very firsthand account of how the fire started and are unconcerned with the integrity of the scene.

 

Just wondering......

[Cruise Cat]

Here is a link to the questionaire that the investigators are using.

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Passenger%20questionnaire%2Edoc

 

 

 

Personal Details

Full name:

Address:

Telephone (home):

Telephone (work/other):

Occupation:

Age:

Gender: Male / Female

General Details

How many people were travelling with you?

 

What were their names and relationship to you?

 

What was your port of embarkation?

 

Where were you when the accident happened? (Cabin/seat number or general area of ship)

 

Description of event

How and when did you realise something was wrong?

 

Please give a brief account of what you saw and heard.

 

Were you kept informed about what was happening?

 

Leaving the vessel

Did you hear any announcements made by the crew? YES / NO

If so, were they clear? YES / NO

Were you able to follow the instructions? YES / NO

Were any of the following illuminated: Cabin lights / Emergency exit lights

How did you leave the vessel?

 

 

Did you encounter any difficulties?

Injuries

Please describe any injuries you suffered and how sustained.

 

Were you hospitalised or incapacitated for more than 3 days? YES / NO

 

Fire

Please describe any fire or smoke.

 

General comments

Is there anything else you feel would help our investigation?

[katisdale]

Thank you for posting this Cruise Cat. I have been to the MAIB site and am impressed by what I saw there. Some of the previous investigations they have performed seem very thorough (to a non expert). I have learned so much from this thread. For example, I knew that metal could melt but never imagined it could burn. I appreciate everyone who has posted and shared their thoughts and expertise.

[CruiseWacker23]

If anything I was surprised that they were in Freeport as long as they were. I would guess most of the time was spent interviewing staff and guests, verifying stories and following leads.

 

The area of the fire's origin was the most critical area that needed to be kept secure until the investigators were finished. The majority of the damaged cabins were colateral damage from the fire and after the first day or so, had no real value to the investigators. The origin was most likely determined the first day of inspection, the cause maybe by the 2nd or 3rd day, and the big ones..who and how is anyone's guess. There are many fires that are determined suspicious or accidental that never have those two questions answered. (By the way, no one has said this fire was suspicious or deliberate, certainly not me). We will just have to wait and see what the report says.

[meemeec]

If anything I was surprised that they were in Freeport as long as they were.

 

I would guess that there were a lot of "housekeeping" jobs that also had to be taken care of. They certainly had more perishables onboard than they needed and they had to sort out all the crew situations.

[mii]

I do have a question. Cruisewacker you stated that "they had to interview crew and guests". Do you mean like engineers, fire experts, etc.

 

Marilyn

[ATL-Cpl]

May I also add my thanks for a very sober and informative thread. I was on Carribean Princess the week of the fire. I would get up in the morning and go on the balcony to enjoy my morning coffee (Baha Deck). I always saw small bits of trash, paper and stuff. One morning I found a 1/2 smoked cigarette on the floor. It was obviously tossed from somewhere while lit, since it burned down about 1/2 inch to the filter and then went out, leaving the trail of unburned paper on the bottom. Anybody who has seen a cigarette burn while on a flat surface will know what I mean. I thought nothing of it and tossed it into the trash. In retrospect, I do not remember any sign of burning or melting of the blue mats.

 

Hopefully this will help any of the experts on the thread.

[katisdale]

I've been watching the Star webcam. I wonder how many crew are onboard. The bridge staff, engineers to keep it running, someone to cook for them. Who else would stay on board?

[alibail]

I've been watching the Star webcam. I wonder how many crew are onboard. The bridge staff, engineers to keep it running, someone to cook for them. Who else would stay on board?

 

Certainly all the deck, engineering and medical crew.

 

As for the hotel staff, I would have thought they might remain onboard (although I'm just guessing), surely its cheaper to just leave them onboard than have to fly them all to the ship when it re-enters service?

[CruiseWacker23]

I do have a question. Cruisewacker you stated that "they had to interview crew and guests". Do you mean like engineers, fire experts, etc.

 

Marilyn

 

Marilyn

 

After they determined the point of origin, they would have started to interview the people who would have be nearest that location, beginning with the PAX in that cabin. This would have included what they were doing, where they were, did they see or hear anything, etc. Then the person initially reporting the fire. They (the investigators) would have then spread out from that point getting the same type of info from the neighbors, etc. They would have backed this information up by interviewing staff (room service, room steward, casino staff, bar staff etc.) If there were conflicting stories, then they would request records from the front office regarding any possible phone calls made from the cabins, etc. If alcohol was a possible accelerant, anything involving that would checked, cabin mini bars, again room service and witnesses. Only after a consistant story is validated by multiple independant persons and sources would the investigators be satisfied with the chain of events.

 

Same thing with the cigarette story. Did anyone see towels or other somewhat easily combustible material on this deck? Again, a cigarette would need alot of help starting a fire outside on a deck. Inside is a different story.

[RichNY]

We just got off the Golden Princess,the Stars sister ship, and had a mini suite. I have been a Fire Fighter for 35 years and I just don't get it...Assuming it started on a balcony, where is the fire load to start a fire of that intensity ??...

 

IMO wind or no wind the load just wasn't there. Two lounge chairs, a PVC table and 2 PVC chairs in an open area all spread out should not have been the root cause of such an intense fire. The flooring material looked like Dri-Deck, the same thing used in the fire service in apparatus compartments. Laying flat it would think that it would probably not support combustion.

 

A theroy..take all those materials , stack them up , toss some accelerant on it..maybe...think about it.

 

Another thought, when does the HVAC system shut down?? on the initial alarm or after the assessment team makes it the decision?? And does the system have fire dampers to stop the spread of flame.

 

I'm sure the investigators can come up with some answers.

[adashay]

We were also on the cruise and I'm glad you are asking the hard questions. My husband agrees with you. This was not an "ordinary fire", if there is such a thing, started by a tossed cigarette in our opinion. And at some point I would like to share with investigators the out-of-control youths we viewed throughout the short cruise. In a cruising community we are all put at risk by the poor decisions made by others. When we returned from Cozymel by tender we sat by young people so drunk and sick we thought their blood alcohol would require medical treatment. Two of the girls were throwing up in their drink cups. Young men were staggering and falling into people. It was a concern. A crew member explained under age kids could not be served on the ship so they go into port and drink themselves into oblivion.

[zackiedawg]

I have been a Fire Fighter for 35 years and I just don't get it...Assuming it started on a balcony, where is the fire load to start a fire of that intensity ??...IMO wind or no wind the load just wasn't there. Two lounge chairs, a PVC table and 2 PVC chairs in an open area all spread out should not have been the root cause of such an intense fire. The flooring material looked like Dri-Deck, the same thing used in the fire service in apparatus compartments. Laying flat it would think that it would probably not support combustion.

 

I think you may be overlooking two of the primary sources of fuel that seem to have been burning extremely hot and supported the spread of the fire - the plexiglas kickplates running the length of the balconies, and the cabin dividers. Both of these were vertically mounted elements, allowing them plenty of oxygen to feed off of, and because of their vertical mount, would produce very high flame. Being plastic/chemical-based, the plexiglas burns very hot, melts when burning, and tend to flare out as it burns. As the balcony plexiglas burned, it would both melt to the deck below as well as flare out into the balcony to ignite even fire-resistant plastics such as the deck chairs and even that matting material. The balcony dividers (either plastics or aluminum) would allow the flame to flow up to the next deck at a very quick pace, as well as flaring out onto each successive balcony, supporting the spread of the fire. Once the continuous pieces reached the temperatures and exposures necessary to burn, they would burn hot and would have little to stop them - so the matting and plexiglas which extended the length of the balconies would be hard to stop. At that point, the varnished wood railings would burn quite readily as well...and the plastic domes over the balcony lights. Considering the relatively small size of most of the balconies (excluding the larger minisuites), what looks like little fuel for such a fire is actually quite a bit. On each balcony, roughly 5 foot by 8 foot - you've got a 6 by 5 foot square divider panel, 6 to 8 feet of varnished wood, 6 by 8 feet square of matting, 3 large pieces of plastic furniture, a 3 1/2 by 8 foot piece of plexiglas, a plastic light cover, and whatever random combustibles might be out there from clothing, towels, drinks, etc. Every 8 feet there is more of the same material. Once the fire begins to burn all of that plastic, it reaches the temperature where it can burn aluminum...and now you've got untold tons of additional fuel. Now consider the tiered design of the balconies, and that the fire will be capable of spreading aft from wind and flaring, up from rising flames, and even down from flaming debris and burning melt...and you've got a huge fire.

 

I think the ship's general fire safety revealed itself - few cabins burned on the inside despite the ferocity of the fire, and those that did seem to have been stopped before even penetrating the hallway inside. Sprinklers seem to have done their jobs at containing the fire to the outside of the ship, or extinguishing it in the cabins which were breached without allowing it to spread to the rest of the ship. And the fire was eventually stopped before burning across the entire outside of the ship...which is fairly amazing considering how well it was spreading from balcony to balcony.

 

Again - you may be right as far as arson, accidental accelerants, etc. I know no more than anyone else here does. But I can still see plenty of ways this fire could have spread naturally, without additional accelerants. If the investigation reveals an outside accelerant was involved, I could readily believe that. Should be very interesting for us fire-nuts and professionals.

[bohunk72]

How many of the crew are on the bridge at 3:00 AM? We were in B201 on the Baja deck in January and the bridge extends past all of the decks with a clear view down both sides. If the fire started small how long would it have to burn until it would be noticed from the bridge? Iwould think it would have been noticed before it reached dramatic proportions unless it started as a very volitle fire to begin with.

[Northender]

How many of the crew are on the bridge at 3:00 AM? We were in B201 on the Baja deck in January and the bridge extends past all of the decks with a clear view down both sides. If the fire started small how long would it have to burn until it would be noticed from the bridge? Iwould think it would have been noticed before it reached dramatic proportions unless it started as a very volitle fire to begin with.

 

You know, that was one of my first thoughts. :mad:

[Tater1800]

....Another thought, when does the HVAC system shut down?? on the initial alarm or after the assessment team makes it the decision?? And does the system have fire dampers to stop the spread of flame.

 

I was in the head when the first emergency announcemnt was heard. There may have been an announcement before that awakened me.

 

The HVAC, in our cabin - E221, shut down just before or just after the muster alarm. This was a good 5-10 minutes into the event. I am sure of this because my wife and I were both awake and dressed prior to the muster and noted the silence.

 

As to fire dampers, if you mean fire doors in the corridors, the answer is yes. They were closed prior to the muster. While awakening my wife, I looked out the door and saw nothing unusual. I looked again a few minutes later and found them closed.

[RichNY]

Thanks for your reply...The fire dampers I am referring to are in the HVAC system and usually close when the system is shut down..

[alwalaska]

Most balconies have a blue plastic matting on top of the steel (or aluminum?) deck. I don't think that the PH suites have anything different, but I'm not positive. The only teak I know for sure is the railings and the balcony furniture for the suites.

 

I read in one place that one speculation is that the wood had recently been varnished (ongoing maintenance is very important on these ships) and that it may have acted as an accelerant.

 

Water sprinkler system is in use seems to have done its job in permitting a safe evacuation of the entire area. No one has reported otherwise. If you look closely at some of the photos that show more detail, it appears that several cabins on Aloha deck might have been destroyed completely, but nearby cabins look like the balcony doors are intact and might not be in nearly as bad shape, but probably still unusable for obvious reasons.

 

There is a thread somewhere buried in this area of a first hand account from someone on the caribe deck. Their room was a total loss. About 10 minutes (possibly more) before the alarms came over the loud speaker they were awake and smelled smoke. As the wife looked out one window and saw sparks, her husband went to look out the sliding glass door and it broke from the heat while he was standing there. They rushed from the room. They said it appeared that the fire suppression system did not work properly.

 

If you can find that thread, it is interesting and has a link to a web site with pictures.

[spongerob]

Ann, that's the thing. The fire was outside. The sprinklers are inside and don't go off until activated by heat. In other words, you actually have to have a fire burning inside to get sprinkler action. If you have the time to wade through this thread, some knowledgeable people have posted how smoke detectors and sprinklers work and the timelines involved. Sprinklers are not necessarily designed to put out all fires, they are there to give people time to escape.

 

Fire certainly did invade and destroy some cabins, while it is clear from some the many photos linked that other cabins nearby were damaged by smoke but did not burn. You can even see evidence of scorching on the chairs near the balcony doors but the blue fabric is also visible.

[Karen112999]

I have read this thread with interest as I was cruising on a HAL ship when it occurred. I wish to thank all of those posters for the shared knowledge on subjects that I have not even thought about in the past.

 

One thing seems strange to me -

 

I have been on my balcony on many ships at various times through the night. I am not a good sleeper. I am also a smoker. The one thing in common that all balconies have is a series of pipes that I have always assumed was for drainage. They normally run along the wall separating the cabin from the balcony. I have no idea what they are made of, but that they are there. In the early AM hours you can hear water flowing freely through these pipes. I have always assumed it was from crew cleaning the pool decks and then hosing them off.

 

My questions and maybe someone might have more info. Does anyone know where the drainage system starts? On the pool decks? Are they accessible for other items to be thrown in them (napkins, lit cigarettes??)

Could different combustible cleaning agents and not just plain water be used for the deck cleaning? Are these pipes made of material that could burn and be used as a conduit which would have caused the devasting balcony damage, with only relatively little interior damage.

 

Thanks and keep up all the good info...

 

Karen

[donnaw]

Posted on another board. This is the Asia Star (formerly Radisson Diamond).

[katisdale]

Does anyone know how much time usually elapses between when MAIB starts a preliminary investigation and when they decide whether or not to open a full investigation? I've ocassionally been to the MAIB site and note that the preliminary investigation has not changed.

[alibail]

While not definite, looking at the table of current investigations,

http://www.maib.gov.uk/latest_news/current_investigations.cfm

The recent collision of a Red Funnel ferry (10/03/06) is under full investigation now, which happened less than a month ago.

The star princess was 13 days later, so I would guess possibly in the next few weeks.

But I suppose it depends on lots of different factors and the individual situation whether they do a full investigation, or how long it takes.

[Princess Chatterer]

If you can find that thread, it is interesting and has a link to a web site with pictures.

 

I have pictures. Click on an individual picture to make it larger.

 

http://www.princessshutter.com/coppermine/thumbnails.php?album=62

[Old Sea Legs]

Now that Star is in Bremerhaven, perhaps some new information will be forthcomming.