Noordan Dress Code clarification please!

[RevNeal]

Dear Esther,

 

I'll proffer my opinion in a moment, but first let me encourage you to partake of the formal night festivities. It is not that difficult to dress according to the code -- one doesn't have to dress "to the nines" to do so, and the minimal guidelines are rather simple to follow. So ... why deprive yourself of the Formal night fun?

 

This being said, while I am not especially offended by others not abiding by the dress code, it is nevertheless true that: (1) some are offended, and (2) those who don't abide by the code will usually tend to be rather conspicuous on formal night when wandering the public lounges in casual clothing. You will be in the minority, and you may truly feel uncomfortable standing out like a sore thumb that way. I know I would be mortified in such a situation.

 

I don't think anyone will actually say anything to you, though you may attract some stares and you may well become the topic of conversation at several breakfast tables the following morning (it depends upon how casual your informal attire is on formal night). I know some people don't care about such things, but for me it would be utterly embarrassing to be so conspicuous. Indeed, this is one of the reasons why this subject is such an emotional one for me (and for some others). We don't want to "stand out" either way, and fear of embarrassment at finding ourselves improperly dressed causes us to try and "hold the line" on the dress code. We feel that if more and more people flout the dress code, pretty soon those of us who dress according to the Code will be the one's "standing out like a sore thumb." It will be those of us who dress formally on formal night who will be conspicuous, subjected to stares, whispered conversations and pointed fingers, and soon we'll hear the accusations of being "stuffed shirts," "elderly" or "conservative" ... labels that we've seen plastered on us here in this thread already. We try to "hold the line" on the Dress Code in order to keep from being embarrassed, lest a "casual wear" domino effect dumb-down the dress code to "anything goes."

 

In short, the dress code asks that we abide by the code while in the public lounges during the evening hours. This means that if you're not going to dress according to code on formal nights, you really shouldn't be in the public lounges. I know that this is something of an inconvenience for those who want to "be casual" on formal nights, but this is what the Line asks. And that is what many of your fellow passengers ask, too.

[enymarsh]

Dear Esther,

 

(it depends upon how casual your informal attire is on formal night).

 

Thanks for your thoughts...

 

Actually, my clothes are exactly the same either way, I wear Chicos-type clothing that is to the floor and can be accessorized up to formal with sparkly tops and/or jewelry and footwear. The issue is this... we have recently begun to travel with just carryons... even for our 10-day southern last year - and as a result, DH would rather not bring the black suit or he'd have to wear it on the plane with his dress shoes. That said, my question was more hinting at clothes like a sport coat and pants for him rather than the tux or formal suit that he usually associates with formal night. So... our attire would not be technically "informal" just that it would match the type of attire worn on "informal" nights.

 

More comments are most welcome!

[mugiber]

As it has only been RevNeal that has addressed my comments, this reply is partially directed at him. Firstly, I certainly apologize for the misquote...

 

You don't seem to care about the word NIGHT in the term "formal night." RevNeal

This was said by AlohaPride not RevNeal. Feel free to lambast me on the importance of not misquoting...in this case it would be deserved!:D

 

Secondly, I would rhetorically ask why you did not write this response(below in quotes) as your first respons:

 

I'll proffer my opinion in a moment, but first let me encourage you to partake of the formal night festivities. It is not that difficult to dress according to the code -- one doesn't have to dress "to the nines" to do so, and the minimal guidelines are rather simple to follow. So ... why deprive yourself of the Formal night fun?

 

This being said, while I am not especially offended by others not abiding by the dress code, it is nevertheless true that: (1) some are offended, and (2) those who don't abide by the code will usually tend to be rather conspicuous on formal night when wandering the public lounges in casual clothing. You will be in the minority, and you may truly feel uncomfortable standing out like a sore thumb that way. I know I would be mortified in such a situation.

 

I don't think anyone will actually say anything to you, though you may attract some stares and you may well become the topic of conversation at several breakfast tables the following morning (it depends upon how casual your informal attire is on formal night). I know some people don't care about such things, but for me it would be utterly embarrassing to be so conspicuous. Indeed, this is one of the reasons why this subject is such an emotional one for me (and for some others). We don't want to "stand out" either way, and fear of embarrassment at finding ourselves improperly dressed causes us to try and "hold the line" on the dress code. We feel that if more and more people flout the dress code, pretty soon those of us who dress according to the Code will be the one's "standing out like a sore thumb." It will be those of us who dress formally on formal night who will be conspicuous, subjected to stares, whispered conversations and pointed fingers, and soon we'll hear the accusations of being "stuffed shirts," "elderly" or "conservative" ... labels that we've seen plastered on us here in this thread already. We try to "hold the line" on the Dress Code in order to keep from being embarrassed, lest a "casual wear" domino effect dumb-down the dress code to "anything goes."

 

In short, the dress code asks that we abide by the code while in the public lounges during the evening hours. This means that if you're not going to dress according to code on formal nights, you really shouldn't be in the public lounges. I know that this is something of an inconvenience for those who want to "be casual" on formal nights, but this is what the Line asks. And that is what many of your fellow passengers ask, too.

 

This reply not only tells me your stand on this issue, but does not make me feel attacked. I read this and can respect your honesty and point of view. Even if I do not agree with it(although I do agree with you in this case just not the original approach by posters), I understand that the rules say XYZ and fellow passengers(such as yourself) appreciate these rules being followed. My options are to follow the rules, choose another cruise line, or not follow the rules and be deviant. I end up at the point you want me(choosing what is right from wrong) without feeling attacked or ruled by an authoritarian. SOOO much better! Thanks for restoring my faith in RevNeal as a consummate CCer with helpful replies. Hopefully the others in the mob...young and old...can learn from your leadership.

[Opinions]

That said, my question was more hinting at clothes like a sport coat and pants for him rather than the tux or formal suit that he usually associates with formal night.

 

Actually a tux or suit are not required on formal night...The HAL dress code says a jacket, tie, etc. are welcome on those nights.

[Copper10-8]

.............Hopefully the others in the mob...young and old...can learn from your leadership.

 

And what "mob" would that be?

 

mob: 1. A large disorderly crowd

2. The common people

3. Informal. An organized gang of criminals

[mommybunny21]

I find it hysterical that the same people who will drag a case of soda on board to save a few dollars are offended by a young man in shorts on an outdoor deck on formal night. Absolutely hysterical!

[Opinions]

And what "mob" would that be?

 

mob: 1. A large disorderly crowd

2. The common people

3. Informal. An organized gang of criminals

 

Having read many threads about dress codes on these boards I would say #1 is about right.

[Oriole]

I just returned (today) from the Noordam 10 day Eastern Caribbean cruise with my husband and 19 year old son. This was the 3rd cruise we've taken together - first on HAL - and I was also a bit concerned at first. But I realized it was vacation for all, and felt that my son could make his own decisions after dinner.

My son wore a suit on formal nights, a sport jacket/tennis shirt/khakis on informal night and the same without a jacket on casual nights.

He always changed after dinner to shorts or jeans and received no comments, no glances and no reprimands.

He attended the shows, casino, etc "dressed down".

We all had an absolutely fabulous time!:)

[dakrewser]

I find it hysterical that the same people who will drag a case of soda on board to save a few dollars are offended by a young man in shorts on an outdoor deck on formal night. Absolutely hysterical!

I believe you've got that wrong - it's the one's dragging large amounts of provisions who also feel the dress code doesn't apply to them...

 

He always changed after dinner to shorts or jeans and received no comments, no glances and no reprimands.

He attended the shows, casino, etc "dressed down".

Well, no, most of us are far too polite to say or do anything to those who refuse to follow the dress code. We do expect, though, that people who wish to be treated as adults would act as if they were adults.

[RevNeal]

I find it hysterical that the same people who will drag a case of soda on board to save a few dollars are offended by a young man in shorts on an outdoor deck on formal night. Absolutely hysterical!

 

To the best of my knowledge, those of us who prefer that people abide by the dress code are NOT those who "drag a case of soda on board to save a few dollars." Speaking for myself ("and I am unanimous in this" ;) ), I have never brought even a single bottle or can of soda, booze, or wine aboard ship.

 

Indeed, I suspect that Dave is correct ... it's those who DO smuggle the soda and the booze aboard who are the ones whining about having to abide by the dress code.

[RevNeal]

Actually a tux or suit are not required on formal night...The HAL dress code says a jacket, tie, etc. are welcome on those nights.

 

Watch it, Opinions, or mugiber will be accusing you of trying to rewrite the Dress Code! In an earlier post, when I posted this:

 

Khaki slacks, sports jacket/blazer, white dress shirt and tie should be perfectly fine for formal nights. For informal nights he can just ditch the tie and, if he likes, he can wear a more casual button down or silk shirt under his jacket. For casual nights the khaki slacks and nice print or silk shirts would be "hot."

 

To which mugiber said that I had "even tried to rewrite the HAL guidelines." The above by me is perfectly in keeping with HAL's published code ... so I don't know what mugiber is so upset about! Go figure. :D

[RevNeal]

Dear Esther,

 

You wrote:

Actually, my clothes are exactly the same either way, I wear Chicos-type clothing that is to the floor and can be accessorized up to formal with sparkly tops and/or jewelry and footwear. The issue is this... we have recently begun to travel with just carryons... even for our 10-day southern last year - and as a result, DH would rather not bring the black suit or he'd have to wear it on the plane with his dress shoes. That said, my question was more hinting at clothes like a sport coat and pants for him rather than the tux or formal suit that he usually associates with formal night. So... our attire would not be technically "informal" just that it would match the type of attire worn on "informal" nights.

 

Christopher -- who is a clothing designer -- had to explain what Chicos clothing was. I had never heard of it. He said that, in his "expert" opinion, such is perfectly fine for Formal Night ... no problem at all.

 

As for your DH, a Jacket-and-tie is all that is "required" on formal nights in order to be in accord with the Dress Code. The Dress Code (the real one) says the following:

 

(Gentlemen: Although business suits or tuxedos are suggested attire for formal evenings, they are certainly not required. You are welcome to wear a jacket and tie on formal nights.)

 

Hence, and as I have stated elsewhere, adding a tie to the informal night slacks and a jacket will bring a man into conformity with the dress code for Formal Night. I generally will wear dress slacks and sport jacket (with shirt and tie or clergy shirt) on the airplane to the port of embarkation ... this way I can get at least one informal night's attire to the ship without having to pack it. And, if it happens to be cold weather either at home or at the embarkation port, it keeps me from having to take a coat that I won't wear anywhere but in transit. :) The Jacket does just fine to shield me from the cold elements for the short amount of time I'll be exposed to them (and, I have a thick hide). :D

 

In short, don't worry. If you husband is bringing a jacket and tie to wear with a pair of slacks, he should be fine on formal night. He might feel a little under-dressed (I would), but men differ on that greatly. He'll LOOK fine.

 

As for traveling with just a carry on ... how do you manage that? Even if one doesn't take all the formal gear, I cannot imagine traveling with just a carry on. Not and bring laptop, cameras, and other such gear too! I suppose it's possible, but for a 10 day cruise I just can't imagine how I would manage it. Even for a 7-day land tour of Israel I brought 1 checked sized (24-inch) bag which I checked, in addition to my carry on. And, even then, it was a tight squeeze. Of course, I'm a big guy, so perhaps that's the difference? Please advise me on how you cruise with just a carry-on each. I would really like to know! :D

[RevNeal]

Dear mugiber,

 

You attributed the following statement to me (I'll pull the quote from your post, which included the attribution at the end of the quote):

 

This is practically the same thing you said in your original post on this thread. I have to wonder why (if you were already decided about what you were going to allow your son to wear) you would even start this thread. This is obviously a hot button topic on this board, and I believe the answer about not allowing jeans on formal night was answered. RevNeal

 

This was actually stated by Mary (AlohaPride) in post #25. Her following statement regarding it being Formal NIGHT, not just Formal Dinner, is one with which I DO agree, and have articulated myself (on a different thread). HAL has Formal NIGHT, Informal NIGHT, and Casual NIGHT ... not Formal Dinner, Informal Dinner, and Casual Dinner. Hence, the line "asks" that we "observe the suggested dress code throughout the entire evening." I believe that such is a reasonable request.

 

Mugiber, I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot. It happens, more frequently that people would like, with these internet BBs. However, it does trouble me that you take so much time interpreting and judging HOW and WHY we are posting, and not WHAT we're actually saying. In so-posting, your messages become put-down lectures which can be typified by the maxim: "do as I say, not do as I do." And that is most unfortunate. You clearly have much to contribute; please do so! But, in my opinion, this continual flood of judgementalism regarding HOW others post really is tiresome. Sometimes it is important to address how other people are posting -- particularly when pejorative labeling and other forms of name-calling ensues) -- but when that becomes the balance of one's remarks, it really does not contribute to the topic or the flow of the thread.s

 

I'm sorry if my style of posting has been somehow insufficient to meet the standards that you have for them. Perhaps you should review my first response on this thread -- post # 4. I challenge you to find an "attack" in that post. Indeed, you will find me posting my expectation that I would be savaged for suggesting that someone follow the Dress Code. And, sadly, you fulfilled my expectation. :(

 

Mary (Alohapride) was right: this IS a hot-button topic. Lots of emotions run close to the surface, and some of them because of the reasons I outlined in a prior post. Others just like to argue, they know that this topic will push certain people's buttons, and they take great delight in pushing those buttons. Unfortunately, it is sometimes very difficult to tell the difference between honest questions and someone pushing those buttons.

[NoNoNanette]

Mugibear-

 

I've been reading your posts with great interest, as well as empathy. Been there/done that. ;) There's just no dealing with some of these folks, honey. I see that you've tried, but don't knock yourself out. The sarcasm can be cut with a knife,yes? They're not the "average" Cruise Critic poster.

 

Mob? Thug Mentality? Yep. :rolleyes:

 

It's not worth the effort dealing with a MINOR HANDFUL of these folks....

 

Look for my Volendam review and pictures in the next few days. After 5 previous cruises on other lines, I'm now a HAL fan. Dress code issues and a couple other "hot button" subjects were NOT a problem!

 

Don't be bullied. Happy Saturday! :)

[RevNeal]

It sounds like Nanette had a wonderful time on the Volendam! Wonderful! I'm so very pleased (I truly am ... I'm not being sarcastic). :) And, I'm not at all surprised that the Volendam provided a wonderful experience ... the Volendam is my favorite Dam ship.

 

Congratulations, Nanette. And welcome home.

[Copper10-8]

Some facts about dress codes and HAL:

 

1. Holland America Line has an evening dress code onboard their ships; casual, informal and formal. The type of dress code for the particular evening is announced in the Daily Program. The "Know before you go" booklet describes the suggested dress.

2. T-shirts, swimsuits, tank tops and shorts are not allowed in the dining room, Lido Restaurant, or public areas during the evening hours.

3. Gentlemen, please pay attention: Although business suits or tuxedos are suggested attire for formal evenings, they are certainly not required. You are welcome to wear a jacket and tie on formal nights.

4. In order to complement your fellow guests, Holland America Line asks that you observe the suggested dress code throughout the entire evening.

5. Holland America has been/is inconsistent in enforcing its dress code. This includes the dining room. Nobody is being thrown overboard for violations of the suggested dress code! Some pax are keenly aware of this fact!

6. Passengers will either:

a. Follow the suggested dress code all night long

b. Follow the suggested dress code but change into something "more comfortable" after dinner

c. Not follow the suggested dress code for various reasons.

 

Some observations: (strictly personal - flaming will be permitted but I reserve the right to flame back, so watch it;) )

 

We follow the suggested dress code, always have, no exceptions. When we see someone who doesn't, it does not make or break our cruise experience and we are not the "if looks could kill" types. On the other hand, I fully understand those that appreciate the ambiance, elegance (whatever you want to call it) of certain cruise lines and their ships due to folks dressing up on formal nights. I would not feel real comfortable sitting at a dinner table and/or cutting a rug in the Ocean Bar or Crow's Nest on a formal night and not being dressed formally. That's just me, Im sure it does not bother other folks one bit.

I have never seen anybody being asked to leave, specifically, the show lounge (or any of the lounges), casino, bars, etc. for not following the dress code at night and I've seen folks in t-shirts and shorts in those places on formal nights. I have personally walked the hallways in a sweaty t-shirt:eek: , shorts and running shoes on the way back to my cabin from the gym to take a shower and have crossed paths with folks on the first dinner seating dressed to the nines on their way to enjoy their dinner. I felt kinda weird about that inside (kept wanting to apologize but didn't) and, yes, I received some "stares".

Specifically to the OP of this thread: if your boy wants to change into a shirt and jeans on a formal night to go shoot some hoops, more power to him. Be aware of rule 4 though (see above) but also see rule 5, specifically the "thrown overboard reference";)

The bottom line: folks are going to do what they want to do!! 1,000 posts now or in the future on Cruise Critic on dress code are not going to change that, period. Gotta learn to live with it! I do kinda wish that we could all act like adults and forego the name calling, bad-mouthing, stereo-typing, etc etc. when we disagree with each other on this volatile topic!

[Copper10-8]

Apologies - double gremlin post

[enymarsh]

How do we do it? It's sort of a science for us and definitely a challenge but one we've enjoyed developing over the 10 or so cruises we've taken. On Princess we've used the self-serve laundry once each cruise but will just send it out on HAL's Noordam.

 

One absolute is that we not take ANYTHING that we aren't going to need! I know this sounds totally obvious but if I finish my cruise and there was even one thing that I bothered to take but didn't use, then I figure I can do better next time.

 

A second helpful tool is packmate bags. I swear by these things!! I use 3 or 4 medium sized ones and they are the kind that do not use a vacuum cleaner... you just squeeze the air out of them. I got them online... these are not the same as the huge ziplocs that one could get from a discount store.

 

I also don't need to wear totally different clothes each time I change... I only bring one pair of jean shorts, one formal skirt that can be mixed with a few different tops... that sort of thing. I honestly don't look like I am wearing the same clothes all week either.

 

Last (and most difficult) is that I limit my footwear to 5 or less, including water shoes and sandals. I have dress sandals that double nicely for formal night.

 

Over the years cameras have gotten smaller and smaller and that has helped. Also, we have the carryon bag that goes overhead in the plane but we also take a personal item like a tote or backpack that goes under the seat and can put our snorkels in there with our valuables, books, etc.

 

I might be challenged this time (feb 07) because I will be taking two online courses and might have to drag along a pile of books!!

[RevNeal]

John, that's an EXCELLENT post. Well written, clear, and to the point. And, for the most part, I agree with you.

 

I have never seen anybody being asked to leave, specifically, the show lounge (or any of the lounges), casino, bars, etc. for not following the dress code at night and I've seen folks in t-shirts and shorts in those places on formal nights.

 

I want to second this. I, too, have never seen anyone who is not properly dressed asked to leave the show lounge, any of the lounges, casino, or bars during Formal night. And, I too have seen folk in t-shirt and shorts in those places on formal and informal night. Nevertheless, such examples are fairly uncommon; it's not something that one sees a great deal of on most cruises. For instance, there were a very few who did this on the Zaandam last October ... so few, indeed, that they tended to be quite conspicuous.

 

And, it is worthy of note that, while such people are not asked to leave the lounges, etc., such people sometimes are asked to leave the Main Dining Room. Likewise, I have seen men refused service in the Lido during lunchtime if shirts are not worn. Sadly, I've also seen men going through lines without a shirt and being served. :(

[RevNeal]

Esther,

 

Thank you.

If I may be so bold ... how tall/wide/heavy are both of you? Are you fairly short, thin people?

I'm a big guy, and my clothing -- even when folded -- is both heavy and bulky. Hence, I still couldn't manage it without a garment bag or a large upright with a suiter installed. Not and take any shirts on hangers for formal/informal nights. My shoulders are so wide that any carryon would end up crushing them on both sides, even with a suiter installed.

 

Still, your accomplishment is an inspiration for me. Next time I take a 7-day cruise I may try to get everything into one checked bag. I won't try to do it with just a carry-on ... too many people bring huge bags into the main cabin and try to put them into the overhead bin ... leaving little room for other people. And they seem to be making the overhead compartments smaller and smaller. :)

[enymarsh]

Esther,

 

Thank you.

If I may be so bold ... how tall/wide/heavy are both of you? Are you fairly short, thin people?

I'm a big guy, and my clothing -- even when folded -- is both heavy and bulky. Hence, I still couldn't manage it without a garment bag or a large upright with a suiter installed. Not and take any shirts on hangers for formal/informal nights. My shoulders are so wide that any carryon would end up crushing them on both sides, even with a suiter installed.

 

Still, your accomplishment is an inspiration for me. Next time I take a 7-day cruise I may try to get everything into one checked bag. I won't try to do it with just a carry-on ... too many people bring huge bags into the main cabin and try to put them into the overhead bin ... leaving little room for other people. And they seem to be making the overhead compartments smaller and smaller. :)

 

Thank you for your complementary remarks! Actually over the last 3-4 years we both have dropped a couple of sizes so that we can now place ourselves in the "average" category... not terribly slender but not too big either... we are also not too tall - 5'6'' and 5'9''...so... that has probably made a bit of difference along the way too!

 

We read the regs from the airline that we are going on so that we only bring bags that will fit into the overhead compartment... of course we fly out of a VERY small airport and often are on tiny planes that don't allow anything overhead (10-20 seaters) and then we are forced to put it underneath but it still doesn't have to go through baggage... they just leave it on the jetway for us. This all began because of our perpetual losses of luggage!!! We decided whether it was on the way home or on the way to the cruise it was too stressful for us. We always have to change planes and that just seems to be too big a challenge for the baggage handlers!:rolleyes:

[RevNeal]

This all began because of our perpetual losses of luggage!!! We decided whether it was on the way home or on the way to the cruise it was too stressful for us. We always have to change planes and that just seems to be too big a challenge for the baggage handlers!

 

Ah, I understand.

I have never had any of my luggage lost by an airline <Greg looks for wood to knock on!> However, if I had I might be tempted to only have carry-on luggage too. :D

[LemonZest]

RevNeal, thank you for taking the time to type out the dress code in answer to this question - and thank you to the OP for *asking*.

 

On Statendam recently the dress code was, very sadly, very nearly ignored. One formal night saw, at our table for eight, five in appropriate formal outfits, two in 'meets the bare minimum, but 'forgot' to send anything for pressing or check for missing buttons, tatty frayed collars, etc) and one (female no less!) in a soup-stained sweatshirt jacket (and no, there was no problem with their luggage having not made the ship, nor was this couple in any way financially challeged to have appropriate clothing or to pay for laundering services, in case you're thinking either of those unfortunate things had occured).

 

EEK indeed!

 

one really should NOT dress in checkered pants and striped jacket with a paisley shirt ... not even on HAL!). :eek:

 

This guy's still cruising. I saw him twice on our cruise!

 

LZ

[sgttami]

I am checking on behalf of my sister and BIL who are cruising on Noordam in January...(my sister doesn't do the boards!! but she's been on a dozen cruises)

 

Will my BIL be scowled at if he's not in "formal attire" at the casino on formal night?

 

They dress nicely but might not want to do all the formal nights. When the suggested dress is for the evening, are the fashion police really in force???

 

Just curious...so I can tell her...

 

Thanks...........

 

 

Pam

[dakrewser]

They dress nicely but might not want to do all the formal nights. When the suggested dress is for the evening, are the fashion police really in force???

 

There are no "fashion police" on HAL ships as each passenger is expected to "police" themselves. Not everyone will follow the dress code, but it's their choice and they should do what they consider appropriate.