Miami, Key West, and the Jones Act

[Indiana Cobalt]

I'm due to leave Monday on the Fascination out of Miami. First stop, Tuesday morning in Key West.

 

Because of the Midwest ice storm this weekend, I'm sitting here thinking to myself, "if we can't leave on time due to the storm on Monday and we get into Miami late, I'll just drive to Key West and pick up the ship there." I call Carnival to verify I can do that, but the answer was "no you can't because of the Jones act which prevents passengers from embarking at one US Port and getting off at another".

 

So I'm thinking, well, what prevents me from embarking in Miami and getting off in Key West. What is the difference in doing that compared to getting on in Key West and getting off in Miami. I figured it was because Calica came in between.

 

So then I'm reading about an incident on the QE2 in January of 2006 where she boarded passengers in New York, and then in Fort Lauderdale, with disembarkment in Rio. One passenger that boarded in New York wanted to get off in Fort Lauderdale because of a relatives death. The captain denied citing the Jones Act.

 

So if she couldn't get off in Fort Lauderdale after leaving New York, why will we be allowed to disembark in Key West after leaving Miami? I know it's only an "excursion" disembark, but I am off the ship, and if that is how I wanted to use the ship, I guess I could.

 

So, then the follow up question is, since I can embark in Miami and get off (if I want) in Key West, why can't I embark in Key West (if I miss Miami on Monday) and then get off in Miami at the end of the cruise?

[Ephraim]

Did she say the Jones Act (Merchant Marine Act of 1920) or the Passenger Vessel Services Act (1886).

 

I would think she was talking about the PVSA, but that wouldn't be a violation of the PVSA, since you would still be going to a foreign port.

 

What the PVSA forbids is transportation from one US port to another US port without a stop in a foreign port if the ship is foreign flagged.

 

It would be illegal for someone to disembark in Key West. That would hold a $300 fine. And from what I have heard, the cruise line pays this and then charges you for it.

 

From my understanding of the law, she's wrong on which law applies and she's wrong about you embarking at Key West. What you can't do is disembark in Key West without paying a $300 fine (per person).

[I Luv Crusin]

I've heard of the Jones Act and I'm sure it had a good purpose at one time, like Daylight Savings Time, but it may be time to repeal it.

[Indiana Cobalt]

The Carnival agent did say the "Jones Act" but you are correct, it is the PSA (Passenger Services Act) that should have been quoted.

 

After reading the provisions of the PSA, I called again to confirm what the first agent said. The second one agreed with the first and said I couldn't catch the ship in Key West. I then asked what was the difference between

 

Key West / Calica / Miami and

Los Angeles / Ensenada / Honolulu

 

and he said there were "subtle" differences but couldn't tell me what they were.

[VentureMan_2000]

I'm wondering if there is a provision that says you have to embark and debark from the same port, if that port is a US port.

 

That is the only difference that I see. I looked and I don't see a single cruise that starts out in a US port, and returns to a US port, where the port is not the same for both.

[Ephraim]

Hmm, that might be it.

 

But I have seen cruises that reposition from Florida to other ports. I went on a cruise that started in San Juan and ended in NYC. Both are US ports. And I have seen NCL and Holland America have cruises that reposition from summer ports in the North-Eastern US to Florida.

 

The Jones act's intention was to create an American merchant marine. It hasn't worked. It also intended to strengthen the PVSA. It ensures that ferries are run by American companies. There have been a few exceptions to these laws.... including for NCL, since the ships weren't built in the US and that's what the Jones Act requires.

[martek]

I feel your pain! my mom and I are also leaving out of Miami on the same ship and we have the weather to contend with also. We live in Northwest Ohio and are leaving out of Detroit at 7:30 on Monday AM. We are spending the night before at the airport. Keeping our fingers crosssed that we make it out of Detroit on time!!

[Agilitydog]

Keep in mind too, that the drive from Miami to Key West takes around 4 hours but can be much longer. US1 the only road going that way is 2 lanes for most of the way and all it takes is one accident to tie things up for miles. It's a great ride and one of my favorite things to do but is definitely not fun if you have to be in the Keys at a set time.

[cherylandtk]

What the PVSA forbids is transportation from one US port to another US port without a stop in a foreign port if the ship is foreign flagged.

Almost....but what the Act says is that you cannot transport passengers between two different US ports without a stop in a distant foreign port. The act defines 'distant foreign port', too, and it does not necessarily follow common sense. Repo cruises either meet the distant foreign port requirement or start or stop in a foreign port.

Getting on in Key West would be OK, but only IF you also got back off in Key West at the end of the cruise. Since OP will be getting off in Miami, that would violate the act. One could do it, but you would owe $300 for the violation. Same for anyone who gets on in Miami and fails to re-board at Key West after the stop.

[Ephraim]

Almost....but what the Act says is that you cannot transport passengers between two different US ports without a stop in a distant foreign port. The act defines 'distant foreign port', too, and it does not necessarily follow common sense. Repo cruises either meet the distant foreign port requirement or start or stop in a foreign port.

Getting on in Key West would be OK, but only IF you also got back off in Key West at the end of the cruise. Since OP will be getting off in Miami, that would violate the act. One could do it, but you would owe $300 for the violation. Same for anyone who gets on in Miami and fails to re-board at Key West after the stop.

 

 

Ah, but if KW is the second stop, the next stop would be in the Caribbean, so there would be a distant foreign port, no?

[g_bowden]

No! The act specifies certain ports as distant foreign Ports and the nearest to Miami are the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire & Curacao) or South America. That is why ships relocating through the Pamama Canal from Florida to Califorina often vist one of these islands. Th alternative to not visiting one of the ABC islands or South America is to start or end in a foreign country like Ensenda MX.

 

If you return to the same port as you departed its OK to visit another US city as long as you also visit at least one foreign port (does not have to distant unless you are not returning to the orignal port).

 

Also OK is departing one US port and sailing to any number of foreign ports (or to no ports) so long as you are retuning to the same orignating US port.

[Indiana Cobalt]

Based on all of the above, let's finish the following sentence...

 

The legal difference, according to the Passenger Services Act, between

Los Angeles to Ensenada to Honolulu

and

Key West to Calica to Miami

is.......

[Indiana Cobalt]

The legal difference, according to the Passenger Services Act, between

Los Angeles to Ensenada to Honolulu

and

Key West to Calica to Miami

is.......

 

They are BOTH in violation of the PSA and you won't see a Los Angeles to Ensenada to Honolulu trip by a foreign flagged ship.

 

I used that route as an example but I then realized that this was only the one way portion, its always a round trip back to the original port. When you see cruises from Hawaii one way to the mainland, they always disembark at a foreign port, usually Vancouver or Ensenada.

[Ephraim]

Hold on. I thought that there were cruises from LA to Hawaii with a "technical" stop in Ensenada. For example, the Celebrity Infinity on the 8th of April. San Diego to Hawaii with a stop in Ensenada. RCL's Radiance on the 28th of April. Regal Princess on the 28th of April. Just to name a few.

 

So, if I understand it correctly, the basic reason is that it's not from Key West to Key West. So, if she missed the Miami stop, the next place she can join the cruise is actually at the first foreign port or pay the $300 fine.

[Indiana Cobalt]

All the cruises you mentioned are not "one wayers" but are round trip to the port of embarkation. Therefore they are proper. What you can't legally do apparently is disembark in Hawaii, either or purpose, or accidentally.

 

Take the regal Princess for example. Suppose you and your family of five take an excursion at the last port in Hawaii, Nawiliwili Kauai. Something happens, you can't get back. It looks like that means that you and your family "disembarked" at another US port violating the PSA. Not only are you going to buy air tickets back to the states for all six of you, it sounds like the cruise line is going to charge you $300 each or an additional $1800 because they are going to have to pay that fee to the US as a penalty for transporting you and your family from one US port to another and letting you disembark without visiting a "distant" port.

 

Now that is very ridiculous.

[HawaiiCruisers]

This itinerary is ok because it starts in Ensenada and ends in a U.S. Port

 

 

ITINERARY

 

DAY DATE PORT ARRIVE DEPART SunApr15Ensenada, Mexico 9:00pmMonApr16At SeaTueApr17At SeaWedApr18At SeaThuApr19At SeaFriApr20At SeaSatApr21Hilo, Hawaii, HI 8:00am6:00pmSunApr22Kahului, Maui, HI 8:00am10:30pmMonApr23Lahaina, Maui, HI 8:00am6:00pmTueApr24Kona, Hawaii, HI 8:00am6:00pmWedApr25Nawiliwili, Kauai, HI 8:00am6:00pmThuApr26Honolulu, Oahu, HI 8:00amFriApr27Honolulu, Oahu, HI Disembark

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

And this one is ok because it ends in Vancouver...

 

DAY DATE PORT ARRIVE DEPART FriApr27Honolulu, Oahu, HI EmbarkSatApr28Honolulu, Oahu, HI 6:00pmSunApr29Kahului, Maui, HI 8:00amMonApr30Kahului, Maui, HI 6:00pmTueMay1Hilo, Hawaii, HI 8:00am5:00pmWedMay2Nawiliwili, Kauai, HI 9:00am6:00pmThuMay3Kona, Hawaii, HI 8:00am6:00pmFriMay4At SeaSatMay5At SeaSunMay6At SeaMonMay7At SeaTueMay8At SeaWedMay9Vancouver, Canada 8:00am

[Bonnie J.]

WE were on a cruise and our tablemate's brother was denied boarding in

Miami or (Fort Lauderdale) because he didn't have the right documents. 1st port was Key West and he got on the ship there. My cousin missed ship in Miami due to flight delay and ship left earlier then it was supposed to . They got on the ship in San Juan, 1st port, which IS also the US. If you have a TA ask them. You might also think of flying down the day before the cruise then you'll be there to get on the ship!