Evangelical University Group on Zuiderdam -

[cruisebax]

After reading the posts about the Jazz musicians, Abraham-Hicks and poker tournaments, I decided to “google” our upcoming cruise – October 27, 2007 on the Zuiderdam. Sure enough, a student and alumni group from Biola University is planning a group cruise through Inspiration Cruises.

http://www.inspirationcruises.com/html/biola_university.html

 

From the Biola University website...

“Biola University is a private Christian university founded in 1908 and located in Southern California. We offer 145 academic programs, ranging from the B.A. to the Ph.D., through six schools. All are regionally and professionally accredited and based on evangelical Christianity.

The University has chosen to set a standard of behavior for all students, faculty and staff. The following behavioral expectations apply to all members of the Biola University community:

1. Those acts which are expressly forbidden in Scripture, including: premarital/ extramarital sex, homosexuality, drunkenness, theft, profanity, occult practices and dishonesty will not be practiced by members of this community.”

 

Has anyone ever sailed with them before? It appears they did an Alaskan cruise on the MS Westerdam in July of 2006.

 

The reason for my apprehension is that we are gay couple and don’t want to feel uncomfortable while on vacation. We sailed with Holland American before and had a wonderful time; this is why we are returning to the Zuiderdam.

 

I don’t know much about evangelical Christianity but researched and found many books, lectures and papers by Biola alums on “overcoming homosexuality”. This coupled with their close ties to James Dobson and “Focus on the Family” are making me think we should cancel this cruise and book another HAL cruise.

 

As experience cruisers, I seek your well trusted opinions.

 

Thank you

[RevNeal]

After reading the posts about the Jazz musicians, Abraham-Hicks and poker tournaments, I decided to “google” our upcoming cruise – October 27, 2007 on the Zuiderdam. Sure enough, a student and alumni group from Biola University is planning a group cruise through Inspiration Cruises.

 

My first thought, as a Christian pastor, is that you should say "up theirs," take each other's hand, and go out on the dance floor in the Ocean Bar. :D If they don't like it, that's THEIR problem, not yours.

 

But, then, I come to my senses and realize that not everybody is comfortable being the focus of attention like that. I, for one, would be uncomfortable if a few dozen Fundamentalists were shooting mental hate and judgement darts at me. It happens, sometimes, in my ministry ... I take stands they don't like, and I get hate mail and threatening phone calls. I keep it for the FBI, if I ever need to turn it over for investigation purposes, but otherwise I commit them to God and go on. Nevertheless, as a matter of pure moral ethics, if they have a problem with you and your partner then, truthfully, their problem is really within themselves ... not with you or any other homosexual couple they will encounter (and they will encounter such cruising on damships).

 

So ... I would give some thought to the matter and, then, if you're still afraid that such a group would make you uncomfortable on your cruise, you should probably call your TA while you still can and shift to another ship cruising a similar itinerary at just about the same time ... that, or to a different sailing of the same ship.

 

If it were me, I would do either ... whichever was easiest and I could get near-enough the same booking arrangements. And, I would let HAL know why I was adjusting my booking.

[babyher]

I see that they are also against Occult practices . You could always tell them that you are two straight guys , but you are disciples of Anton LeVey :)

 

I am just kidding .

 

I actually agree with RevNeal. One or two idiots on board with that attitude , you can say screw 'em thats their problem. But with a large number of them giving you the hate stare (and I am sure they would have no problem being vocal about it either. )

 

Of course you and your partner know whats best for you. If it were me , I would re book. It is sad that it would come to that , but I would hate to ruin a vacation having to be uncomfortable around a bunch of idiots .

 

No matter what you decide , have a great trip.

 

Enjoy:)

[madelinerose]

cruisebax...We are novice cruisers, but wouldn't want to share a ship with this group. Good luck with your decision.

 

 

 

 

. As experience cruisers, I seek your well trusted opinions. Thank you

[bankerbabe]

It is sad that it would come to that , but I would hate to ruin a vacation having to be uncomfortable around a bunch of idiots .

 

While I understand the point that you are trying to make - not wanting this couple to be uncomfortable around those whose beliefs differ from their own - I find your use of the word "idiots" insulting.

 

Why is it that people who consider themselves open and tolerant are so quick to condemn Christians, and in doing so believe they are being PC? Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, Christians, Muslims, and Hindus included.

 

Anyway, that's my rant. BTW, I do not consider myself an evangelical Christian, though I do consider myself a Christian and I know many kind, loving, tolerant evangelicals who do not always agree with the doctrine handed down by their church.

[tomc]

I don't think he meant Evangels are idiots; I think he meant people who would dump all over you are idiots.

 

Just IMO, as a practicing RC who has no problem with gays, I'd say take another cruise if you feel you would be uncomfortable on this one. I've never known any gay couple having problems on a HAL cruise, but with people who have a definite stance on this, it might be a damper.

 

Can you find out, through Inspiration Cruises, how many will be on board? I think I was on a cruise with a group of women booked through them, and got an approx number.

[bankerbabe]

I think he meant people who would dump all over you are idiots.

 

Now that I would agree with.

[babyher]

Thank you TomC....that is exactly what I meant :)

I don't care what religion a person is. I myself am RC. But anyone who would dump on anyone because of who they are or what they are is an idiot.

 

Bankerbabe.... Sorry if I offended you. I didn't word it as well as TomC explained :)

[bankerbabe]

Thank you TomC....that is exactly what I meant :)

I don't care what religion a person is. I myself am RC. But anyone who would dump on anyone because of who they are or what they are is an idiot.

 

Bankerbabe.... Sorry if I offended you. I didn't word it as well as TomC explained :)

 

No worries - thanks for the clarification. I just get tired of hearing all of the Christian bashing from supposedly "tolerant" individuals. Good to know that you are not one of the bashers.

[Jade13]

Why not call the group up anon and ask some questions? I guess I would since I would be curious to see what they say before having any group change my plans.

 

If you get someone on the phone saying "you" are going to hell etc., you know you'd be better off trying to pick a different itinerary.

 

I still can't believe groups exist that would preach to others who are on vacation. Btw, I was married by a gay rabbi. My Dh is Christian so it worked out well since our rabbi only cared that Dh believed in a higher being (wasn't trying to get my Dh to convert.)

[cruisebax]

We love Holland America and I do think I will contact the company to see how many people have booked. If it is 20 people, I probably won't even see them. If 200, we might reschedule.

 

Thanks again for your open and honest communication.

[waiting2retire]

There is no way of knowing how this group of cruisers would react to an openly gay couple (I use "openly" as opposed to gay people pretending to be straight). The fact that their religion opposes homosexuality does not mean that people themselves do. I use as an example the RC church which, to the best of my (uninformed) knowledge still opposes pre-marital and extra-marital sexual relations, as well as birth control, abortion, and eating meat on Fridays. Would I then assume that no RC persons practice any of the above, and that they condemn those who do???

 

If the OP is uncomfortable about the potential interaction with this group, then it would likely be best to book another cruise. Personally, I would not knowingly spend my hard-earned dollars taking a vacation where I suspected that others may object to the way I live my life. I think I would then be looking for perceived slights where there may be none intended and that alone would diminish the enjoyment of my vacation.

 

Bonnie

[grannynurse]

It's too bad that people can't practice what they preach. I have a problem with people who label themselves as believers and don't follow the principles of love and tolerance. Dealing with extremist fanatics of any sort is like being spiritually "mugged" or being hit over the head with a 100 pound (whatever book you ascribe to).

 

BTW when we got off the Maasdam in 2005 we were told by some of our favorite crew persons that an evangelical group were coming aboard next trip and thet all the bars and lounges were not going to serving alcohol.

If you do partake perhaps you should check to see if the bars will be serving before you go.

 

I can't see subjecting myself to bad vibes and behavior from people who are judgemental to begin with. It's like adding fuel to their fire. It almost gives them a crusade.

 

As a Messianic Jew, I've been told by pastor friends of my DH's that they can fix me...as if I'm tainted or broken.

So much for fanatics!

Sorry, your post elevated my soap box a hair.

I wouldn't take that cruise. There are many many friendly people on HAL and on this board and we'd like to prevent you're being hurt.

 

GN

[Sailorgirlseattle]

I understand your concerns, and given the size of the group I might also change my plans if I were you. That said, please don't assume that all staunch Christians are judgemental and vindictive. Christians are suffering from a really bad rap right now, but most are NOT condemning of others ... just watchful of how they live their OWN lives. You might get one or two jerks in this crowd, but unless the ship shuts down all activities aboard that might offend this group, my guess is you'll have a great time even with them onboard. And hey, if they don't drink and dance, you don't have to worry about meeting up with them in the disco, do ya? :D

[babyher]

No worries - thanks for the clarification. I just get tired of hearing all of the Christian bashing from supposedly "tolerant" individuals. Good to know that you are not one of the bashers.

 

I only bash idiots *LOL* Unfortunatly these days they come in all shapes sizes colors religions nationalities ...whatever :)

 

Evangelical Christians are like any other group of people on earth. There are good and bad in all. I have no problem with anyones beliefs or faith and respect everyones right to have them. Its when you tell me that I am going to hell because I smoke or drink or who I sleep with or whatever and I need to see the light , thats when I get annoyed

[NoNoNanette]

Its when you tell me that I am going to hell because I smoke or drink or who I sleep with or whatever and I need to see the light , thats when I get annoyed

 

HEATHEN

 

;)

[tomc]

Is it pre-marital sex if you don't plan to marry the person?

(That is a *joke*)

 

btw: I used to share a cabin with a woman who was married to another man. He never minded and that's because my dad trusted me and mom.

[babyher]

HEATHEN

 

;)

 

 

Topless sunbather :) :)

 

*LOL*

[NoNoNanette]

Topless sunbather :) :)

 

*LOL*

 

I'm in YOUR CAMP, baby! :D

[babyher]

Is it pre-marital sex if you don't plan to marry the person?

(That is a *joke*)

 

 

*LOL*

 

My first wife was very religious , she was dead set against pre-marital sex ..........

 

 

She wasn't too crazy about post-marital sex either.

[Purrissa]

If it were me, I would re-book if the bar was going to be closed. Now that's BS!:p

 

Go and enjoy yourselves! According to their philosophy, most of us are going to hell anyway. You cannot worry about what others think.;)

[babyher]

I'm in YOUR CAMP, baby! :D

 

Oh I know you were teaseing

 

I was too :)

 

 

I think you and I should go on this cruise , they'd be calling in an excorcist *LOL* but we'd sure have fun

[peaches from georgia]

If a religious group charters a ship of course everything will be done as they wish- bars and casino closed, etc. But there is no way I will believe that if a large group just books a number of rooms as a group that the cruiseline will close the bars or casinos for all pax. They would have a mutiny on their hands plus all that lost revenur.Just wouldn't happen. It would have to be a full ship charter where HAL would be compensated for loss of normal bar/casino revenues.

[bankerbabe]

Did this turn into an interesting thread or what? I think that the OP got more than they bargained for.:D

 

Personally, I believe that I have enough work to do trying to keep myself out of Hell, I don't need to waste my time telling everyone else how to live. Plus that whole scripture about "Judge not lest ye be judged" keeps coming to mind.

 

All this crazy talk about bars being closed is starting to really freak me out though - 10 nights in a cabin the size of my closet WITH my DH and WITHOUT single drink would truly be H**L. :D I need a drink now :)

[babyher]

If a religious group charters a ship of course everything will be done as they wish- bars and casino closed, etc. But there is no way I will believe that if a large group just books a number of rooms as a group that the cruiseline will close the bars or casinos for all pax. They would have a mutiny on their hands plus all that lost revenur.Just wouldn't happen. It would have to be a full ship charter where HAL would be compensated for loss of normal bar/casino revenues.

 

I was thinking the same thing Peaches.

 

I don't know any cruise line that will take that big of a financial hit closing off the bars and the casino to several thousand passengers (depending on the ship) because of a couple hundred people.

 

Full charter sure ...otherwise no