Two-class System on Ships?

[RevNeal]

[QUOTE]So, while I think HAL may try to seat people of similar backgrounds (couples, solos, etc.) at the same table, I don't think cabin selection factors into the equation at all.[/QUOTE]

On the Zaandam for 21-days at our table for 8 people we had:

2 couples in S-suites
1 couple in B-category outside with Verandah
1 couple in an inside cabin

Of the 4 couples, only 1 was married.
1 couple was mother/daughter
1 couple was two friends of different gender
1 couple was two friends of same gender

Of the 4 couples, 1 couple was Canadian
The rest were US Citizens--
1 couple from the North-East
1 couple from the South-West
1 couple with 1 from Hawaii and the other from Florida

Of the 4 couples,
2 couples were HAL mariners
2 couples were first-time HAL
1 of these two were first-time cruisers (yes, on a 21 day cruise!)

I have never been at a more diverse table in terms of back-ground, geography, and HAL-history. It was the best table-group I've ever had ... we had a GREAT time! By mid-way through the cruise we were meeting together in the Crows Nest for drinks before dinner, and then often in the Ocean Bar for music, drinks, and dancing AFTER dinner. It was a great group.

[Roadguy]

Rev,
Sounds like a great table!! Diversity is a GREAT thing!!!

As for the two-class system, I don't have a problem with it as long asI know before hand.
Been in a suite and will be in a suite, still DO NOT see what the big deal is??..
A suite SEEMS to be a bigger deal to those not in one than to Me.

[bepsf]

[b]Folks who have a record of not abiding by the Formal Night dress code should be kept in Second Class. [/b][b]:eek: ;) [/b]

[catlib55]

We have never stayed in a suite, but have had two verandah cabins. I loved the verandahs but they aren't necessary for me to enjoy a cruise.
I would not feel comfortable on the QE2 or the QM2 because we are not in that income bracket. We would be cruising with people who are used to alot more amenities than we are and who are in a much higher income bracket than we are. I personally feel more comfortable with people who are in the a similar income bracket (basically those who enjoy cruising and can afford to cruise about once a year or once every other year). Does that sound snobbish?
As for verandah or no verandah, it doesn't matter to me. If I can't sit on my own verandah, I can always go up on deck and sit on a deck chair and have the same view.
What I don't care for is an inside cabin. I tend to get claustrophobic, and I like to look outside and see whether it is day or night without checking a clock. We have stayed in a couple of inside cabins, and I didn't care for them as much.
I marked that it doesn't matter either way with me, I just love cruising.
'Til we sail on Rotterdam,
Mary Ellen

[InterestedBystander]

[quote name='catlib55']I would not feel comfortable on the QE2 or the QM2 because we are not in that income bracket. We would be cruising with people who are used to alot more amenities than we are and who are in a much higher income bracket than we are. I personally feel more comfortable with people who are in the a similar income bracket (basically those who enjoy cruising and can afford to cruise about once a year or once every other year). [/QUOTE]Many people were excited about cruising in the biggest, fanciest, etc etc ship afloat and reservations made long in avance are keeping the first-year sailings at a respectable level. However, I suspect new reservations have fallen off sharply since the ongoing management problems of dining room service, etc. are widely publicized and 10 months downline, still have not been corrected.

On a midsummer crossing on QM2, there seemed to be many first-time cruisers who wanted the once-in-a-lifetime experience of being on a notable ship. If conversation in the dining room and lounges is any indicator, many of them might not ever cruise again, much less on Cunard.

Another thing to consider: about half the cabins on QM2 are neither balcony nor suite. Clearly, Cunard expects to settle down to a typical mass-market passenger mix.

[SueOverend]

It's nice to have the option to upgrade to a suite for a special occasion. We've got one booked for the first time in December to celebrate my 50th birthday and we're really looking forward to it. The combination of the Suite perks and the size of the cabin make for a very exciting trip. I think the Perks will make you feel special in little ways and I think that is what it is all about when you're doing something a bit out of the ordinary.

After this trip, we'll be back in Verandah Cabins, but I think it would be a shame not to have the option to pay a bit extra and spoil yourselves once in a while. We always spend a lot of time in our cabin from around 4.00 pm till 8.00 pm every day and the extra space, both in the room and on the balcony is going to be a real treat. I agree with other posters though that there should not be separate treatment in other areas of the ship i.e. dining. We will use the Neptune Lounge as I love good coffee, but we'll probably be taking it back to our suite.

I too would not go on the Queen Mary, as their suites are totally out of range for most people's budget and I think it is unfair for all passengers not to enjoy the entire ship.

Happy Cruising to you all.

Sue

[heyabbott]

There's a difference though between paying extra for ammentities and perks and establishing different rules in public areas for different classes of pax. When staying at Rock Resorts, 4 Seasons, Ritz Carlton and Mandarin Oriental I understand that I'm not paying $5,000 a night, but they have never refused me entrance to a public room because I'm not in a Park or Ocean View Suite. That's always a choice, do you want the penthouse in a Marriott or a room near the elevator at the Mandarin Oriental?


What HAL appears to do is appropriate, you get what you pay for. But dining rooms, shows, casinos and pools should never be segregated by class. If you want a higher class cruise, step up in class to another line that caters to a more monied clientle[sic] or lease a privately chartered yacht.

[Philip217]

History is not repeating itself - this planet has ALWAYS had a 2 class system for nearly everything. It probably always will.

There have ALWAYS been people who are willing and able to pay enormous amounts of money for exclusivity and privilege.
There have ALWAYS been people who are not willing or able to pay.

I often hear the phrase, "Money cannot buy you happiness". But I only hear this from people who do not have very much money. All of the wealthy people I have met seem quite happy and content.

In China we have been experimenting with a One Class System for decades. We call it Communism. It doesn't work.

[spongerob]

Interesting comment, Philip. I find it ironic that some of those who want everything equal spend so much time trying to find ways to get "little extras" they haven't paid for or are unwilling to pay for.

Of course, when you have people posting that the latest version of the film "Titanic" is their source for impressions on the class system, it is hard to argue intelligently. The locked gates that were featured so prominently in the film were in fact requirement of US Immigration law at the time, designed to prevent the spread of an eye disease common at that time. Stewards left the gates locked when they abandoned their positions.

[AmyinVail]

funny isn't it, how people are so different? I would prefer to only take one cruise a year, as long as I was in a suite, rather than several in a balcony or inside cabin. We had a butler on NCL, as we stayed in a penthouse and enjoyed all the perks - too spoiled now to cruise any other way. We also take two land vacations a year and like the upgrades available (club level at the Ritz, etc.). I do not, however, think there should be a distinct difference - as I agree every paying pax should be able to enjoy the whole ship. On an interesting note, NCL is launching a new ship the Jewel this fall and there is a courtyard level of suites and penthouses. They have exclusive use of their own pool, gym and lounge for food. Someone mentioned bringing back the "old" way of things, maybe NCL is testing it out?

[cru1s1ng]

[quote name='dakrewser']I'm firmly in favor of two classes, definitely seperated. Seperate dining rooms, seperate pools, seperate show lounges, etc. One set for people without children or those who teach their kids discipline and another set for those who refuse to care about their fellow pax.

:p[/QUOTE]

LOL, well said, Dave

[Leela]

[quote name='kryos'][color=Purple]I
Like I said ... never again on a coast-to-coast trip. The extra $100 or so will be worth it. But, on a cruise ... I just don't think I'm getting that much more to make the suite worth it.

Blue skies ...

--rita[/color][/QUOTE]

Have you checked coast-to-coast business class fares compared to coach? Most airlines don't offer transcontinental business class service, it's usually only between San Francisco and New York or Los Angeles and New York. So, most of the time what you're looking at is a first class ticket versus coach. I happened to check on the last ticket I bought, curious to know what the difference was. My route was San Francisco to Tampa, via Charlotte on the outbound and Chicago on the return, on United Airlines code-shared with US Airways. The coach price on my particular flights was $333. The lowest first class price was $1060. So it's a lot more more than an extra $100 or so!

But hey, if people are willing to pay for first class, or a suite on a cruise ship, then more power to them. I totally agree with the idea that they can keep their personal amenities so long as the ship doesn't start getting divided into suite passenger pools and suite passenger restaurants and suite restaurant shows. And the cool thing is...sometimes you can get a deal. I managed to snag a suite on my next cruise, paying only $50 more per person per week than I did for an outside cabin on my last cruise. Granted, it's a different ship with a different itineary so I'm comparing apples to oranges (it is the same line though, so they're both at least fruit :) ), but I figured for the extra $50 I'd give it a go!

[Leela]

[quote name='MandyGirl'][color=darkorchid]I understand it's different strokes for different folks. Maybe people that book insides would like amenities but have no desire for a verandah.[/color][/QUOTE]

It's possible to make your own extra amenities, depending on line. For instance, look at the pre-sailing catalog of bon voyage gifts you can order for Celebrity cruisings. Want a bar set up? Fresh flowers? Fruit bowl? Chocolates? Champagne? You can pay for an inside cabin and then add on exactly the amenites you want via sending yourself a slew of bon voyage gifts. Okay, so it's not the same as getting them all included, but hey if you got a great deal on an inside cabin in a location you like and you wished you could get some of that "free" (it's not free, it's merely "included") champagne or whatever, you can order it and have it waiting in your room when you arrive.

[Leela]

[quote name='MandyGirl'][color=darkorchid]I have over 100K AAdvantage miles to use, and have seriously thought of just using them for first class on the next overseas flight!! [/color][/QUOTE]

Through a combination of frequent flyer miles and being just plane (pun intended) lucky, I've managed to fly trans-oceanic flights in all three classes. As enticing as a first class international ticket sounds, don't waste your miles on it. Go for a business class ticket instead. Spending your FF miles on a biz class overseas ticket -- especially if the flight is longer than 8 hours -- is an excellent use of the saved miles. Particularly if you are flying to London. One time I cashed in 60,000 miles for a biz ticket from San Francisco to London on United. At that time, for the flights I was flying, if I bought a biz class ticket it would have cost nearly $7,000. Meanwhile, a first class ticket would have cost me 90,000 miles. Yet, biz class gets the same food as first, and nearly the same wines. Some airlines have lay-flat bed seats in first, but to me it's not worth it to spend the extra miles to get them as compared to the worth it is to spend the miles to go from coach to biz.

Sorry for going off topic here, I'm just trying to be helpful. Look at it this way: it might be more fun and more valuable to use some of your miles on a biz class ticket and still have enough left over for a domestic ticket to get to your next Caribbean cruise too!

[Leela]

[quote name='Sailure'][font=Arial][color=darkslategray][b]One thing that does annoy me is when I'm in the dining room and sitting with other people that I don't know is when they get to discussing their accomodations and it gets around to me and they ask me what kind of room I have. I NEVER ask anyone what their accomodations are and how much they paid for their cruise and many many many times this comes up at the table and it REALLY makes me uncomfortable. I don't want to lie, I don't want to tell them it's none of their business and I don't want to discuss my accomodations because I don't want anyone to think I'm uppity.[/b][/color][/font][/QUOTE]

If there happens to be inside cabins on the deck you are on, maybe you can try this: just say "oh, I'm staying on the _______ deck" and change the subject. They have no way of knowing if you're in an inside cabin or a suite, but you did sort of give them an answer.

A lot of times I think people ask just because they are dying to see one of the suites, and so they ask around hoping they'll meet someone who will show them theirs :) It's probably some subconsious hold-over from when we were toddlers and wanted to see inside the bathroom of every house we visited :)

[dougnewmanatsea]

[quote name='Leela']Have you checked coast-to-coast business class fares compared to coach? Most airlines don't offer transcontinental business class service, it's usually only between San Francisco and New York or Los Angeles and New York.[/QUOTE]
And it costs exactly the same as regular domestic first class on other transcontinental routes! The business class offered on these flights is the same or better as regular domestic first, and first on JFK-SFO/LAX is a premium product that is nicer (and much more expensive) than regular domestic first class. In essence, business class on these routes is the replacement for domestic first, and first class is something different altogether.

Both American and United do this on JFK-SFO/LAX (American does not even call the class above business on these flights "first class", but rather "premium class" to differentiate it from domestic first)... Though American now has some two-class JFK-SFO flights, where first class is regular domestic first service, but with international business class seats (confusing).

Much of the reason for three classes on these flights is that the Screen Actor's Guild - sort of a labor union for film actors - mandates that any SAG member in flying from New York to Los Angeles for work must be in first class on a [i]three class[/i] flight. Thus AA and UA provide three class flights on these routes, and charge ridiculously high fares for first class (there are no discounts), which the film studios naturally pay because it's in the SAG contract. You will very rarely find an individual actually paying for first class on these routes - it's maybe three times the cost of business class, and I'm told (I would hardly know!) that it's only marginally nicer than business.

Delta also fly these routes but they do not offer a three-class service... Though they actually offer business, but not first class, on one (yes, one!) JFK-LAX flight a day. This is again an international configured aircraft, so your seats at least are international business seats - much nicer than domestic first seats - and otherwise the service is apparently a bit nicer (again, this is what I've been told). Some JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO flights will soon become Song flights, which means no classes at all - but they are also retaining at least one regular Delta flight on each route, timed to connect with all the Delta flights from Europe to JFK, the reasoning being that someone who just came off a flight in business class from, say, Paris will not be too pleased to then go on to San Francisco on (economy-only) Song.

There is only one route I've ever found where business or first comes close to economy - and that is from the mainland US to Hawaii... Or at least from the east coast to Hawaii. Flying from JFK to Hawaii (stopping somewhere - it doesn't matter where) might cost, say $800 in economy and $1100 in first. Now, $300 is nothing to sneeze at, but flying from JFK to Los Angeles it's probably something like $200 in economy and $1000 in business... With that situation repeated on just about all flights anywhere in the world. And for most of us it isn't worth it - which is why most airplanes have loads of economy seats and only a few premium seats :) .

[quote name='Leela']Some airlines have lay-flat bed seats in first[/QUOTE]
And some do in business too, for that matter. Plenty of airlines don't even have first class on international fights any more - among them Delta, Continental, Northwest, KLM, Virgin Atlantic...

[quote name='Leela']A lot of times I think people ask just because they are dying to see one of the suites, and so they ask around hoping they'll meet someone who will show them theirs[/QUOTE]
Quite possible... And I'm also sure that some people who are [i]staying[/i] in suites who want to know so they can avoid socialising with the riffraff. Yes, such people do exist!

I recall when I was maybe four or five years old, staying with my family at a very expensive resort. We had booked the cheapest room, but our room wasn't ready at check-in time and so they upgraded us to the concierge floor. One evening my father and I were going up to the room from the lobby, sharing the elevator with a very pretentious-looking elderly lady who looked at us intently with an icy stare that indicated that she didn't approve of young children sharing her rarified surroundings (this was a place where if you showed up in the lobby after 6 PM without a jacket, they'd ask you to leave - I complied, of course). That is, until my dad turned the key next to the button for the concierge floor! For the rest of the time she remained in the elevator, she acted as though she was our best friend. Naturally, she got off on one of the lower floors. (Peon!) I don't know if she was angling for an invitation to our room or if she was just a general Hyacinth Bucket type (but maybe 30 years older), but at that age it was quite startling!

[Philip217]

From reading all these postings, it is very obvious that the general cruising public has bought into one of the greatest fallacies ever put out by the cruise lines; accommodation versus transportation.

As much as the cruise line companies (and their passengers) would like us to believe that a cruise ship is a "floating hotel", that is just not the case.
If you look at operations, regulations, pricing, competition, complaint-handling, etc, the Airlines and the Cruise Lines are almost identical in the way they do business. They are constantly copying each other as they develop.
If you look on the stock exchange, you will not find HAL listed next to Hyatt; HAL is not a hotel Company, and is not governed by the American Hotel and Motel Association. You will find HAL listed next to United Airlines - another transportation company. Both UAL and HAL are regulated by the National Transportation Safety Board.
If you want to see what will happen to cruising over the next 10 years, look at the airline industry today.
The new Airbus A380 is just a small ship that flies; the HAL Amsterdam is just a big airplane that floats.

[Leela]

[quote name='Host Doug']And some do (have lay-flat seatsA) in business too, for that matter.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but be warned there's some tricky advertising going on. Cathay Pacific advertises a flat bed in biz but there's a catch: Yes, the chair you are sitting in becomes flat, but the entire thing is still tipped at an angle to the floor. It's more like a "lean flat" seat. And if you're short like me, you'll find yourself slowly sliding off the seat. I hear Lufthansa is the same way.

The post about cruise companies being like transportation companies is very interesting. The only thing is...how can they truly consider themselves a transportation company when the majority of the time one seems to be just doing a round-trip. It's not like the old days when it really was transportation, when that was how people got from point A to B for other reasons. I think the stock market classification might be a holdover from back before the jet age?

[dougnewmanatsea]

[quote name='Philip217']From reading all these postings, it is very obvious that the general cruising public has bought into one of the greatest fallacies ever put out by the cruise lines; accommodation versus transportation.[/QUOTE]
The cruise business is completely different from the airline business. Virtually no-one flies because they want to (now, people do fly for leisure purposes, but they're still flying for the sole purpose of getting wherever it is they're taking their vacation). With a cruise, plenty of people don't even care where they're going - they're taking the cruise for the sake of the cruise. With the exception of the late, lamented Concorde, I have really never heard of anyone taking a commercial airline flight just for the fun of it.

[quote name='Philip217']If you look at operations, regulations, pricing, competition, complaint-handling, etc, the Airlines and the Cruise Lines are almost identical in the way they do business.[/QUOTE]
Not by any stretch of the imagination. You mention regulations - the airline industry is far, far, far more regulated than the cruise business. In fact, shipping, and by extention the cruise industry, is almost certainly the least-regulated industry in the world - and airlines the most regulated, barring perhaps nuclear power plants or something like that.

[quote name='Philip217']If you look on the stock exchange, you will not find HAL listed next to Hyatt[/QUOTE]
You will not find HAL listed on a stock exchange next to anything. HAL are a privately held company, a wholly owned subsidiary of (publicly traded) Carnival Corporation & plc.

[quote name='Philip217']HAL is not a hotel Company, and is not governed by the American Hotel and Motel Association.[/QUOTE]
Nor are anyone else. That is a trade group, just like the [url=http://www.cruising.org]Cruise Lines International Association[/url], or for that matter the [url=http://www.iata.org]International Air Transport Asosciation[/url].

[quote name='Philip217']Both UAL and HAL are regulated by the National Transportation Safety Board.[/QUOTE]
The NTSB is not a regulatory agency; it makes recommendations to regulatory agencies like the FAA, which regulates UAL (who are also subject to the whims of every country in which their aircraft operate). HAL is regulated by a whole myriad of various organisations, from the [url=http://www.imo.org]International Maritime Organisation[/url] on down.

[quote name='Leela']Yes, but be warned there's some tricky advertising going on. Cathay Pacific advertises a flat bed in biz but there's a catch: Yes, the chair you are sitting in becomes flat, but the entire thing is still tipped[/QUOTE]
This is very popular. I think Singapore Airlines were the first to have these contraptions (they call theirs "Skybed") - but loads of airlines have picked up on it. Including, incidentally, United in first class on the JFK-LAX/SFO flights, though not anywhere else (though I'm sure if they had the money, there would be nary an international business-class seat on UA that wasn't one).

To me these look like they would be quite uncomfortable in the flat position - but what looks comfortable and what is comfortable aren't always the same... So I can't say what I think of them really, unless someone cares to buy me a round-trip business class ticket from JFK to someplace so I can try them out ;) .

BA do have flat beds in intercontinental business class (from even before Singapore's lie-flat seats) as do Virgin and soon, Air New Zealand which will use the same seats (er, "suites") as Virgin

[Sinbad37]

;) [b][font=Comic Sans MS][size=3][color=red]Where are You! [size=2]Tonight I found...and yes read...your original post: [/size][/color][/size][/font][/b][b][font=Comic Sans MS][color=#ff0000]"Two-Class System on Ships?" [/color][/font][/b]

[b][font=Comic Sans MS][color=#ff0000]Thanks for your curiosity and the post. Have you read how much you generated?[/color][/font][/b]
[b][font=Comic Sans MS][color=#ff0000]Exciting thoughts and valuable information. Guess that is why I have become a CCMB addict! :D When is your next cruise? Where are you going? Let us know won't you?[/color][/font][/b]

[heyabbott]

It's very interesting so many posters are so very interested in meeting new people yet many of these same people tend to post over and over again about the exclusivity of the Neptune Lounge, their personal conceirge, HMC [i]private cabanas[/i] and ensconsing themselves in the [i]private [/i]verandas.


I guess the steerage pax should be grateful for any moment that is spent with the hoi-paloi. [please note the intense sarcasm]

[kryos]

[quote name='Leela']Have you checked coast-to-coast business class fares compared to coach? Most airlines don't offer transcontinental business class service, it's usually only between San Francisco and New York or Los Angeles and New York. So, most of the time what you're looking at is a first class ticket versus coach. I happened to check on the last ticket I bought, curious to know what the difference was. My route was San Francisco to Tampa, via Charlotte on the outbound and Chicago on the return, on United Airlines code-shared with US Airways. The coach price on my particular flights was $333. The lowest first class price was $1060. So it's a lot more more than an extra $100 or so!
[/QUOTE]
What you can sometimes get, though, is an upgrade to business class at the terminal. I've been offered upgrades on Delta for as low as $30 bucks.

If the business/first class section is empty, they will often offer reasonably priced upgrades on check-in.

No, I couldn't afford an extra $900+ dollars just to fly first class. Simply put, I'll have to zonk myself out on medication upon boarding and then squeeze into my teeny tiny coach seat for the flight. I finally got a doctor to prescribe something, so maybe I'll be okay for my flight to LA in April. But, I will still keep my eyes open for reasonably priced upgrades when I check in at the airport.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[SantaAna,CA]

I was reading all the replies to this question and I think we are really talking apples and oranges; on the Titanic there was First Class and there was Steerage....(perhaps second class too, I dunno)....but that was a [i][b]definite [/b][/i]class distinction. On modern day cruise lines, I don't see that distinction at all....instead of suggesting that it's a "class system"....I think the answer "pay more, get a few more perks", is the absolute right answer. And, if you don't need those perks, then the outside or inside staterooms will do fine, since the ships have so many great amenities for everyone.

I purchased a suite on the MS Amsterdam for my trip to Alaska this coming August because they were sold out of the minisuites...and I really wanted a verandah, so I was willing to shell out the (rather large!) difference instead of going "down" to an outside cabin (down in price I mean, the outside cabins look very nice). I don't think of it as a "class" difference as much as just a bit more elbow room *smile*.

[JohnSax]

[quote name='heyabbott']It's very interesting so many posters are so very interested in meeting new people yet many of these same people tend to post over and over again about the exclusivity of the Neptune Lounge, their personal conceirge, HMC [i]private cabanas[/i] and ensconsing themselves in the [i]private [/i]verandas.


I guess the steerage pax should be grateful for any moment that is spent with the hoi-paloi. [please note the intense sarcasm][/QUOTE]
If you'd seen some of the pax we saw on our last cruise, you'd want to esconce yourself too (note intense sarcasm here, too )

[dougnewmanatsea]

[quote name='SantaAna,CA']I was reading all the replies to this question and I think we are really talking apples and oranges; on the Titanic there was First Class and there was Steerage....(perhaps second class too, I dunno)....[/QUOTE]
First, second, third. No steerage. Third class had cabins, steerage had dormitories. On TITANIC all pax had the luxury of cabins, with a maximum of four berths per cabin even in third class!

[quote name='kryos']What you can sometimes get, though, is an upgrade to business class at the terminal. I've been offered upgrades on Delta for as low as $30 bucks.[/QUOTE]
DL attempted to sell upgrades when I was flying SFO-JFK a few months ago. Not that cheap though. For $30 I'd have done it (I think they wanted like $150).

[quote name='kyros']If the business/first class section is empty, they will often offer reasonably priced upgrades on check-in.[/QUOTE]
On many airlines this is now a no-no unless every single elite frequent flyer of that airline and/or alliance's program already has a first or business seat... (On some airlines, if you're a high-tier FF, you get bumped automatically into first-class as far as, IIRC, 72 hours ahead of the flight!) So these days that is getting quite rare.

I was quite surprised that they were selling upgrades on that flight - I guess every Delta/SkyTeam elite FF member already was sitting up front!