Pray You Don"t Need Medical Attention On Crown Princess!!!

[tishie58]

ok back to the FDNY. Heres what my hubby says, "it is Princess not the Paxs' responsibility to call 911" He says they get calls all the time from airlines and cruise ships. He also agrees with the OP who says the cruise line will give proper directions to where they are and permission for them to board. All medical professionals know that time is indeed important when treating some injuries and trauma. As far as the "heifer" remark..Shame on you, you must want some secondary gain for a remark like that.

[bunting]

**May I also note letters of condition were sent to the ship supposedly and princess 1800 number has this on file but the ships Medical crew claims they had no record so we did take all precautions so we thougnt way in advance. The Princess rep was shocked to hear that they told us they had no letters in hand as Princess has record of receiving them. quote]

 

IMHO best thing for people to take away from this other observation from Oraf7 - is that lines of communications from shore to ship may not be perfect and if you send a cruise line such notification, consider taking a couple of minutes to verify with the medical staff, once you get onboard, that they actually got the notification and if not provide them with a copy or the information and then make sure that the cruise line gets feedback, after your cruise, to prevent further lapses from shore to ship...

[oraf7]

All valid points... what if the doctors had a patient who was having a heart attack...We just don't know... To further add to this...what would have happened if there had been a small child in front of the elderly 300 lb gentleman when he fell... If a patient is on Coumadin, 300lbs and probably has some sort of cardio-vascular issue...is it safe to be walking the stairs?? Probably not. The FDNY would have be the best bet here...and was a real option. Laying all this on Princess to me just isnt fair.

 

One cannot expect hospital type care from a cruise line (its not what you are there for or pay for). When on vacation, you are away from home and need to plan for it....Especially if you know that you have medical issues. Like I stated in my first post, I felt very disturbed reading the intial account. But, after putting together more facts I really am beginning to have doubts. OP states it took 30 minutes for help to arrive...From the time of the fall?..From the time the emergency call was place?? Who was timing this 30 minutes...according to the OP she was upset, confused and distraught and was helping give her father first aid...Who would have time to check their watch?

 

There is an old saying...there are three sides to the truth... Yours, Mine and What really happened...

 

 

Thank God for the world of Computers....Yes I was distraught but not unconcious and I did look at my watch because the ships personal also re-called down to the center because they were shocked at the response. Princess on the phone agrees that they will be able to trace when the call was made from this deck and when he finally arrived in the medical center. I can't convince everyone on this board how faulty the system was but I sure do hope you never have to experience this substandard care for you or your family in an emergency situation. I only name the Ship not because I am blaming the Princess Crew but the Fleet Medical Crew who was onboard. I am starting to wonder if some of the rude replies about weight aren't the staff themselves. As I stated I really don't want this to be a Flame session I just feel that not to even have a gauze pads to put on open cuts and to have to scramble for napkins and tissues from peoples purses is unsanitary but again no *FIRST AID KITS ON DECK*. That is simply not right!

[prarie cruiser]

Again, I would like to say my family has had the fortunate experience of having excellent emergency care on a cruise ship. I am truly sorry for the OP experience, but the best way to deal with that now is for the OP to take it up with Princess and make a decision whether or not to pursue a legal course of action. I truly do feel for her and her father.

 

The really bigger issue here is whether or not the medical procedures are adequate on these big cruise ships. I am of the opinion the facilities available once the person gets to the medical area, are excellent for their purpose. I am also of the opinion the physicians and nurses are seasoned professionals who do their jobs at least as well as those we would find in our own communities at home. Through the years, I have had the opportunity to speak with many of them and also to tour the facilities.

 

My concern may or may not be justified, but I do have the concern about the response to an accident, easy availablity of essential supplies, and most especially defibrillator access on the ships. In other words, once you are not in the medical office area, is the response to an accident by the properly trained people, in a timely manner, and with the proper suppplies readily available. I think I will ask the cruise line about this and encourage everyone else to do so also. What was once designed for the smaller ships, may not be the best course of action for the larger vessels. We need to be advocates for ourselves, not just wait for legal actions to occur.

[bunting]

My concern may or may not be justified, but I do have the concern about the response to an accident, easy availablity of essential supplies, and most especially defibrillator access on the ships. In other words, once you are not in the medical office area, is the response to an accident by the properly trained people, in a timely manner, and with the proper suppplies readily available. I think I will ask the cruise line about this and encourage everyone else to do so also. What was once designed for the smaller ships, may not be the best course of action for the larger vessels. We need to be advocates for ourselves, not just wait for legal actions to occur.

 

Hi prarie cruiser this is an old story but thought you might find it of interest... 65 units for 10 ships back then, not too bad an average provided the equipment is available, users properly trained and used....(spare units not kept in some store in the medical facility)....my thoughts no matter how much equipment or training you have in place or conduct, if you dont use it during a real emergency you gain nothing....

 

http://www.hoise.com/vmw/99/articles/vmw/LV-VM-05-99-2.html

[MaryPoppinz]

For this argument, say the doctor is in an exam room with a pax who cut his hand in one of the bars, one nurse is with a crew member who has just sustained a 2nd degree burn on his arm and the other nurse is dealing with a pax who just showed up complaining of chest pain.

 

With a professional staff of three, if two of these three situations is taking precedence over a man who is on coumadin and has bleeding injuries, then we have a triage failure. And, even if the professional staff is only three, they are not the only ones who have medical training sufficient to be part of a response team lead by one member of the professional staff. Since you seem to enjoy "what ifs?" then...what if the OP's father's fall had been the result of a stroke or a cardiac arrest?

 

There is a problem with this response time - and I can't imagine anyone being satisfied with it if this injury occurred in their community. Certainly, any city which is paying an ambulance contract wouldn't be happy with this response time for this injury (not even lovely metropolitan Boston.) You can come up with a million reasons why it happened, but 30 minutes is just inexcusable.

[tishie58]

sorry to disagree Marypoppinz but that is an incorrect application of "triage'. If one medical person is taking care of someone else...no matter what he/she cannot leave because that constitutes "abandonment". "Triage" is when all patients are in front of you being treated at the same time. Not when patients are scattered about the ship. This is not a triage failure but an example of the medical staff being overwhelmed.

[MaryPoppinz]

If one medical person is taking care of someone else...no matter what he/she cannot leave because that constitutes "abandonment".

 

LOL! It is not abandonment to leave a nurse and a physician in the medical center with three patients and send a nurse with a response team to patient elsewhere. In any event, that was a hypothetical, so we don't know whether the medical center was overwhelmed. We don't know what the staffing levels were and we don't know what other situations (if any...) were present in the medical center.

 

And triage frequently takes place between a base and the field when there are limited resources like this.

[robertsc1966]

Oraf7, I am SO sorry for the situation -- I started reading this thread yesterday and got so upset (and actually nauseated) that I had to stop reading. I can only imagine if that were one of my parents. You are right that the weight is a non-issue. If his money was good enough for them to book a room then it should not matter, there are plenty of children and adults that cruise who aren't in prime physical condition through no fault of their own.

I did a little poking around on the Princess web site and found this:

All of our Medical Centers hold the distinction of being the first and only facilities in the industry to be accredited by the prestigious United Kingdom Health Quality Services and certified to ISO9001:2000. Our onboard medical center is staffed by full-time British registered doctors and nurses. In addition to twice-daily office hours, they are available 24 hours a day in the event of an emergency.

 

Charges for medical services will be added to your shipboard account, and you will be provided with an itemized account to submit to your insurance company. Important: Princess ships are registered in Bermuda. Verify with your insurer if your coverage applies outside the United States, or purchase appropriate travel insurance.

You might want to consider contacting this UK Health Quality Systems.

http://www.hqs.org.uk/ -- I'm sure they would be interested in your story!

[bunting]

an example of the medical staff being overwhelmed.

 

Sorry, remembering we are dealing with what if scenarios for what was happening in the medical center and as we all agree we dont know....but if this is an example of a medical staff being overwhelmed, lets hope when Princess responds to Oraf7 and investigates the incident, that they consider their manning levels to prevent them being ¨overwhelmed¨ on debarkation day.....or maybe because it was the end of the voyage what if they had finished receiving new stores and the off duty people went ashore for the day....leaving the minimum manning level.............

[jff50]

I reading this post, I can't help but try to picture how this event might play out during disembarcation. My experience is that all the stairs, hallways and public areas are packed with people. Even if those in the immediate area are inclined to get out of the way, they have to have a place to go. It would only take a few people that are rude, inconsiderate, unaware or oblivious to make access very difficult at best. Based on my experience at disembarcation, if you need to get from one place to another quickly--you're hosed. Especially in the stairwells or elevators.

 

All we have is the story of one person, whose version is heavily influenced by their emotional involvement. I'm not sure what (if any) response would have been considered adequate at the time. If this were to happen to me, I don't think I would be in a position to perceive or relate this event objectively. I certainly wouldn't be in a position to accuse the medical staff and/or Princess' procedures of being disgraceful or a disaster.

 

My only experience with Princess' medical staff was when my 80+ year old uncle had chest pains on a cruise with me. While I wasn't aware of it at the time, my aunt indicated that Princess' response time and handling of the situation was excellent.

[ParrotTops]

I am married to a doctor. I can't tell you how many stories I have heard around the hospital regarding the deaths of older people on coumadin that could have been prevented. In my opinion, once the OP notified the ship's medical staff that her father had fallen and was on coumadin, the ship's doctor should have accessed the patient immediately! Time is of the essence--a coumadin patient can easily bleed to death in minutes as there could have also been internal hemmoraging. Additionally, you need to take into account that a patient on coumadin is usually taking the drug due to a previous stroke, TIA, or by-pass, etc, the victims cardiovascular status should also be evaulated ASAP. If this scenario had taken place in an emergency room, this patient would have been given immediate priority...

[ParrotTops]

I was just wondering, do any of you medical folks out there know if they can even do INR's on a ship??

[tishie58]

Marypoppins

 

LOL you know nothing of triage (as per my FDNY husband of 27 years) ....you are stirring a pot of hypothesis and unless you are proficient in trauma and triage you should not speak. For some of us its about patient care....others litigation. I am glad the OP received care from fellow pax who were medical professionals , i know both my husband and I would do the same, but I will not crucify Princess staff unless you know what they did constitutes nonfeasence, misfeasence or malpractice.

[MaryPoppinz]

For some of us its about patient care.....

 

Absolutely. That is why I have a problem with a 30 minute response time to a bleeding emergency when a patient is taking Coumadin. Why your husband thinks this is satisfactory care is not something I could explain.

[oraf7]

I reading this post, I can't help but try to picture how this event might play out during disembarcation. My experience is that all the stairs, hallways and public areas are packed with people. Even if those in the immediate area are inclined to get out of the way, they have to have a place to go. It would only take a few people that are rude, inconsiderate, unaware or oblivious to make access very difficult at best. Based on my experience at disembarcation, if you need to get from one place to another quickly--you're hosed. Especially in the stairwells or elevators.

 

All we have is the story of one person, whose version is heavily influenced by their emotional involvement. I'm not sure what (if any) response would have been considered adequate at the time. If this were to happen to me, I don't think I would be in a position to perceive or relate this event objectively. I certainly wouldn't be in a position to accuse the medical staff and/or Princess' procedures of being disgraceful or a disaster.

 

My only experience with Princess' medical staff was when my 80+ year old uncle had chest pains on a cruise with me. While I wasn't aware of it at the time, my aunt indicated that Princess' response time and handling of the situation was excellent.

 

 

All I can say is do I need to have each witness and family member post and tell their same version. The passengers who were Doctors and Nurses were very verbal once the nurse Julia got around to showing up.They as Medical professionals were horrified. I am being very objective as the dust has all settled and feel someone has to be an advocate for better response time. The stairs leading from the Horizen were not crowded at all. Once Dad was in the Medical area they did check him out quickly. No x-rays were offered or an EKG. All they did was ask my Mom to come with them and provide the credit card info for billing purposes. This isn't about a lawsuit which nobody is planning on. It's about someone being an advocate for every passenger to receive adequate care.

Sorry but it was a disgrace and disaster!!!!!!!!!!!! Glad you had a good experience but we didn't

[comettgirl]

I'm not for lawsuits, but in this case the letter you are sending Princess would come from my LAWYER!!!!! They are responsible for the service they do or do not provide in situations like this. There IS injury here caused by THEIR negligence, and it could have been 1000 times worse! You NEVER should move someone in that condition until they are checked for broken bones and neck and back injuries! AND NO I am not and never have been int the medical field, I just have COMMON SENSE!!!!!!!!!! I have been on 20+ Princess Cruises, so you would have to call me a Princess fan.... big time, but this is totally unexceptable!!!! If it had been my loved one on that floor and treated like he was, Princess would be tied up in legal correspondence for a long time to come!

[DeepWaterMariner]

I'm not for lawsuits, but in this case the letter you are sending Princess would come from my LAWYER!!!!! They are responsible for the service they do or do not provide in situations like this. There IS injury here caused by THEIR negligence, and it could have been 1000 times worse! You NEVER should move someone in that condition until they are checked for broken bones and neck and back injuries! AND NO I am not and never have been int the medical field, I just have COMMON SENSE!!!!!!!!!! I have been on 20+ Princess Cruises, so you would have to call me a Princess fan.... big time, but this is totally unexceptable!!!! If it had been my loved one on that floor and treated like he was, Princess would be tied up in legal correspondence for a long time to come!

 

And what damages would be the basis of your case? Princess is not being blamed for the injuries nor have I read in any of the posts that the delay in treatment has resulted in further injury or delayed recovery. A delay of this type certainly could have led to additional problems or have been fatal, but no thanks to Princess medical care, that doesn't seem to have happened. So, what would your lawyer be threatening?

[wizard-of-roz]

Whoa!!!!!!!!! The injuries were NOT caused by Princess. This gentleman fell (of his own accord!)

 

Believe me, I totally send my best wishes to him and to his family. And, hope that he has had a speedy and full recovery.

 

That said; whenever we are in public places...we MUST use due diligence to watch where we step, especially on stairs; ie: hold onto the rails; look for objects; don't run or jump, Etc., etc.

This was an accident; unless someone pushed or pulled him down! And, unless the stairs were icy or wet!

 

Did Princess make any mistakes in this mans case, probably. Was this family horribly traumatized? Yes! Accidents happen! And, sometimes medical personal can not attend to people injured in a quick and efficient manner!

 

If we're all looking to change the care and treatment of passengers on cruise ships, we must advocate for that.

 

HOW: Write letters of concern to the cruiselines.

 

Will this stop sick people (on medication) from cruising?...NO!

Will this stop overweight people from cruising?.....NO!

Will this stop people who fear elevators and only use stairs from cruising?..NO!

Will this stop people (adults and children) from running/jumping/playing on the stairs, on cruise ships?.....NO!

I have had personal experience with the medical department, on a cruise, and in an emergency. I thought they did a very good job, under the circumstances.

Can the cruiselines improve their medical department care?...Probably!

They have the space/people and revenue to do just that!

I hope they listen and make the necessary changes, to keep us all safe!

Will I stop cruising because of this experience or any others I've heard of......NO WAY....I'm booked for Sept. 29th, Nov. 24th of 2007, Jan. 13th and April 14th of 2008!

I'll bring my meds....be careful when I'm ashore....take care at the buffet lines (not to handle those damn hot serving spoons) and I'll use my sunscreen so I don't get a bad burn!

Now, go have a safe cruise!!!!!!

[bunting]

Based on my experience at disembarcation, if you need to get from one place to another quickly--you're hosed. Especially in the stairwells or elevators..

 

jff50, you´re right it can be very difficult but that´s why they should plan for the expected (large groups at debarkation) and makes it easier to handle the unexpected....here´s an example, again, drawing on experience from another line..at pax drills, duty nurse, wheelchair, and crash bag go to the survival craft deck before the drill, stay there and respond to medical incidents during the drill and then leave after the majority of the pax had left the area...this evolved from many dehydration incidents in the early days and the nurse being called from Deck 1 to 7 by radio to respond and so it was easier to place a person ready in a known populated area and not have to cut through the crowds........let´s hope that the line looks into the incident to look for improvements...

[tishie58]

Mary

Ok this is my last post on the subject. My husband did not say a delay in treatment was ok. Understand he is the person who responds to the 911 call , he is the one who responds to mass casualities and he is the one who knows how and when to triage anybody! We both think Princess could have done more and in a more timely fashion. However, we just returned from a cruise with my elderly parents as well. Both have medical issues and I will tell you this, all eight of us were responsible to make sure someone walked in front of grandpa or aside him. All of us made extra sure he was taken care of. I do not blame anyone here . It is a very unfortunate situation and thank god nobody was seriously harmed. I do know this. if this was my dad I would have gone and got the doctor or called 911 myself. Sometimes you need to be more assertive to get the care you need. Doesn't mean its right , doesn't mean there doesn't need to be changes in the cruise industry, but it is what it is.

But don't tell my husband what or how to triage unless you have done his job in NYC for the past 27 years. Have a great day

[MaryPoppinz]

Ok this is my last post on the subject.

 

Pleasure chatting with you. :)

[comettgirl]

For those of us who own property (in this instance a cruise ship) and have had people fall and get hurt on that property. Not due to any problem with that property.... i.e. no known hazzard... and have those people make a claim on my insurance and have that claim paid..... know it IS the responsibility of the property owner when someone is hurt on their property. AND how do you know there was no hazzard that contributed to his fall? People usually don't fall for no reason.......

 

Then there is the 30 min wait for emergency help that is clearly stated is available on the cruise ship. Not only was it not available but the so called medical professional proceeded to move an obviously seriously hurt individual BEFORE he was checked out...... If anyone thinks there is no claim here for a long list of reasons, they have no clue...... Check your own homeowners liabilty clause!!!!!!! Public businesses have a much broader umbrella of liability. I deal with such things often..... for myself and the company I work for. If someone is hurt on our property, we are responsible........ in some way shape or form for at least part of the medical expenses.... In this case it far more then just being the propery owner. Their medical reps were negligant...

[prarie cruiser]

Thanks Bunting for the article. It was encouraging. I called Princess but the rep could not tell me whether or not they had defibrillators in convenient places. But, I intend to ask on my next cruise as I had not really thought of this before.

[DeepWaterMariner]

For those of us who own property (in this instance a cruise ship) and have had people fall and get hurt on that property. Not due to any problem with that property.... i.e. no known hazzard... and have those people make a claim on my insurance and have that claim paid..... know it IS the responsibility of the property owner when someone is hurt on their property. AND how do you know there was no hazzard that contributed to his fall? People usually don't fall for no reason.......

 

Then there is the 30 min wait for emergency help that is clearly stated is available on the cruise ship. Not only was it not available but the so called medical professional proceeded to move an obviously seriously hurt individual BEFORE he was checked out...... If anyone thinks there is no claim here for a long list of reasons, they have no clue...... Check your own homeowners liability clause!!!!!!! Public businesses have a much broader umbrella of liability. I deal with such things often..... for myself and the company I work for. If someone is hurt on our property, we are responsible........ in some way shape or form for at least part of the medical expenses.... In this case it far more then just being the propery owner. Their medical reps were negligant...

 

All homeowners carry insurance because they might be responsible if someone injures themselves on their property, not because they are automatically responsible. As the OP stated, they do not blame Princess for the original injury. What is claimed and what is paid isn't as simple as where the accident occurred but also the circumstances that contributed to the injury. Unfortunately some people automatically and mistakenly feel that the property owner is responsible no matter how the accident happened. If that were the case homeowners insurance rates would be higher than they already are.