A question of manners

[DrivesLikeMario]

It is my humble opinion that there are WAY TOO MANY Americans that have NO manners! You see them everyday, wearing hats in restaurants, NOT holding doors for the lady coming in behind them, slamming into you as they speed down the sidewalk or through the mall. The chair hogs on the ships. The ones that touch every piece of food in the buffet, with their bare hands, before they pick what they are going to eat. The ones that do not dress correctly for formal night. And the ones that walk right into our little children like they are not even there. And the ones that treat any and all wait staff, on ships, in restaurants, in the local McDonald's like they are dirt under our feet.

 

And it is OUR FAULT! Why?

 

BECAUSE --- WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU CALLED SOMEONE ON THEIR ACTIONS?

 

Did you suggest they take their hat off in a restaurant?

Did you ask the maitre'd to remove the person in jeans & tee shirt from formal night?

Did you say "anything" to ANY of these rude people?

 

They might not correct their rude behavior just because one of us say something BUT if enough people say something I am willing to bet they will start thinking about it. If enough parents are told that their children's behavior in a restaurant is terrible I would bet they will eventually get the message.

 

And YES - I do - politely as I can - say something to many of these people. I also tell parents with wonderful polite children what wonderful children they have. I have also had people removed from the dining room on formal night, like the guy dressed in worn out jean, worn out motorcycle boots, a t-shirt with a large emblem on it and a black leather jacket. He had the misfortune of being at the next table, but next to me on a Celebrity cruise. They did not want to ask him to leave - said it would cause a scene. I said I would cause the scene if they did NOT remove him. They asked him to leave and change his clothes.

 

Silence is acceptance. This country is what we make it.

 

Very well said. And, as a mother of two teen sons, I think it is my obligation to teach them manners. I'm not silent on the matter with others - if I can show them by example how to behave.

 

I don't think the lack of manners is an "American" thing. I think this is a generational thing - too many parents are more worried about being their kids' friends rather than their parents.

[Jules215]

Where is Chef Ramsey from??! : )

 

 

I have a close male friend who's English and my manners are much better than his, to the point that at times I cringe at the way he addresses some people and reacts to some situations...And by manners I suppose I'm referring more to common courtesy and patience, as opposed to table manners...I'm always going behind him apologizing to people. :rolleyes:

[jbond]

Where is Chef Ramsey from??! : )

I have a close male friend who's English and my manners are much better than his,

I believe Ramsey is Scottish, not English.

[willysgrandma]

If you are looking for Americans being rude, you will see rude Americans.

 

If you are on a cruise ship that departed from a port in the US, of course most of the rude people will also be Americans - most of the people on the ship will be Americans so there will be a higher proportion of rude Americans than rude people from other nations.

 

Well, I left out of Miami on a cruise that was mostly South Americans and I found it to be a cruise with the rudest people ever. They were loud everywhere on the ship, pushy, shouting in the elevators, not allowing people to exit the elevators before getting on - it was terrible.

 

My next cruise was out of New Jersey and most of the passengers were from the tri-state area and we had none of those problems.

 

I always say please and thank you and try and treat every staff member the way I'd like to be treated in their shoes. I have high esteem for the folks that work on cruise ships - I could never do that job.

 

As many others have said, it is all how people are raised. If everyone treated staff the way they want to be treated you wouldn't see thing slike that going on.

[Jules215]

I believe Ramsey is Scottish, not English.

 

And you are quite right!!...My "friend" lives just past the Scottish border, so I guess some of that "Ramseyness" (??) must have oooozed south!! :D

[sagiv666]

We were on a Celebrity cruise last week and will be on a RC one next week. There were a lot of passengers from USA on board and I noticed that a large number of them did not say "please" or "thank you" when talking to the wait staff particularly with the servers in the WJ cafe equivalent.

 

We found all the passengers on board very friendly and courteous towards other passengers with very little pushing or queue jumping when getting on/off the ship/buses/tenders (unlike our experience with other Europeans on our MSC cruise in May). The overall friendliness of the passengers and crew contributed to this Celebrity cruise being our best cruise to date.

 

Was my perception incorrect or is there a cultural difference in the way crew are spoken to akin to the difference in tipping policies? In fact are these related i.e. in the USA do you show your appreciation using tips rather than verbally?

 

I wonder if it is a question of what one learns as one grows up. If you learn to say "please" and "thank you", you will say this to hired help as well as to relatives and friends. This could reflect cultural differences, or just the way one, as well as his own parents, is brought up.

.Of course, the waiters and the cabin attendants want to see a nice tip when the cruise ends, but while this may be number one on their minds, they appreciate nice words from the passengers they serve,

There is one final thought. With experimentation in freestlye dining, for example one has the opportunity to choose where and when they want to eat; in this case, there is not the close tie between waiters and passengers one sees with fixed seating. I took my first cruise which featured freestyle dining, and while my wife and I have been brought up to say "please", etc., I could see where one may be tempted too avoid saying niceties.

Of course, there are always those who feel that their tip makes up for whatever politeness they should show waiters, etc. All in all, it is hard to pin down the exact reason why some speak niceties to hired help more than others. :confused:

[Jimmers]

I think the world's most polite society is probably the South Americans. Or is that the American South. Yes, that it's.

 

And that coming from a lifetime Yankee.

 

I hope they are able to pass that cultural "gift" onto the next generation and maybe export some of it to the rest of the country.

 

Jimmers:)

[Bakincakes]

Where are all these rules? I always thought RCI suggested what to wear?

 

 

You are correct they do make suggestions.

 

It is a shame that they had to go to the trouble of actually listing acceptable items. One might think that adults would be able to comprehend what "formal" means without having to be told.;) :)

[petesweet]

Wow, I don't know where some of you people live ;) , but I rarely see the kind of behavior I am reading here. Where I live, people smile and say hello when they pass you - whether they know you or not. I am a female - and I can't remember the last time a male over the age of 10 has not held a door open for me as I entered a restaurant or store or post office or whatever. And, yes, I always say thank you when they do. I hear please and thank you all the time when I am out and about.

 

Don't misunderstand me. I certainly think there is too much "me" in the world today. But I really haven't seen that translated into bad manners as far as please and thank you and excuse me, etc...... :)

 

Well said. While I think some people's behavior is rude, that doesn't justify our being demanding and trying to impose our wishes on others (as in the case of DEMANDING that a cruiser be removed from the dining room). I'd rather just try to set a good example, and I hope I succeed.

[WinterEscape]

I grew up in a small town in the US in Kentucky. My parents drilled in the you always say your pleases and your thank yous, but every time I go north, I get looks for saying these things and some big cities. In the US, it seems very cultural as to whether or not you say anything.

[RBOUR]

WOW our grandson is 17 months old just learning to talk and says Thank e and Plez all the time.Goes back to your upbringing I guess . Our two grown children were always polite and ALWAYS to an adult. :D

[mastergunner267]

I will not stand for anyone that does not display basic common courtesy and have said so to those who do not. On our many cruises with RCCL, all of the crew and staff have been polite, courteous, and just down right friendly. We always say Good Morming/Night, Hello, Thank You etc...and recieve the same in kind, and THEY REMEMBER AND APPRICIATE IT! The same with 99.9% of the passengers. I deal with the public on a daily basis and it disgusts me regarding the lack of manners that most people display. One of the most important things I look forward to on a cruise is getting away from that daily abuse and being with a large group of people that remember how to act like people. On our last cruise (10/26 on the Explorer) the one instance of no manners was when a group of young women just pushed my girlfriend out of the way to get to a biscuit in the Windjammer. I cut back in front of them and said "How much effort would have it taken to say Excuse me, can I just get a biscuit? Go back to your mother and father and get a lesson in manners." The people in front and back of us said "Good For You!!!"

[Mydnite]

I don't think it is purely a cultural thing, there are many peolple ovewr here, as well as in the US who have few, if any manners, when it comes to saying please and thank you. I have noticced it in both countires, (and I go to the US a lot), but I do have to say I have noticed it moreso in the US.

 

However, I have put it down to a large amount fo the time I have been in 'holiday' areas, and a lot of people seem to think it is OK to be more self centred when on holiday. So, again, that may not be cultral, but a difference in tne basis of comparison.

 

 

I can say we always say please and thank you and nearly all the time we get great service, as they say,. you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

 

On the point about picking people up oin thier manners, with my own family, or guests, o people in my party I will pick them up when they show lack of manners (but that is very rarely), to others who are not in our party, if I see them being rude I will not pick them up on it directy, but try to lead by example.

[leavnofingerprints]

If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me but I have been under the impression that good etiquitte and manners dictates that one should never do or say anything to make another person feel singled out or uncomfortable. I would also think that would include someone believing they are the manners police correcting anyone else's manners. :rolleyes: That IMHO would be totally boorish and unacceptable.

 

LNF

[LadyRose]

One thing that you may have missed is that in some areas of the US, a 'big, wide, happy' smile is treated the same a 'please or thank you'.

 

I have been to areas that are just like that. Not many people said anything but everyone was sure smiling at each other ^_^

[dontpanik]

From Emily Post:

Treat servers with respect. Leaving a generous tip doesn’t make up for ordering someone around or treating them dismissively. While tipping augments servers’ incomes and rewards them for a job well done, treating them kindly is just as important.

And From Miss Manners for those who think its their "job" to correct others' behaviour:

Correcting others is a rude action done on purpose.

On Correcting Others Can Miss Manners, whose vocation, whose calling, is correcting etiquette transgressions, condemn the practice? Certainly. Miss Manners corrects only upon request. Then she does it from a distance, with no names attached, and no personal relationship, however distant, between the corrector and the correctee. She does not search out errors like a policeman leaping out of a speed trap. When Miss Manners observes people behaving rudely, she behaves politely to them, and then goes home and snickers about them afterward. That is what the well-bred person does. The only way to enjoy the fun of catching people behaving disgustingly is to have children. One has to keep having them, however, because it is incorrect to correct grown people, even if you have grown them yourself....What is unacceptable is to criticize things a person cannot easily remedy or may not want to.... Even if it be proven that the mistakes of others come from gross ignorance or from maliciousness, it is not the place of anyone except God, their mothers or Miss Manners to bring this to their attention. As dear Erasmus said, "It is part of the highest civility if, while never erring yourself, you ignore the errors of others." Besides, it is a law of nature that he who corrects others will soon do something perfectly awful himself.

 

:D

[2tall]

If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me but I have been under the impression that good etiquitte and manners dictates that one should never do or say anything to make another person feel singled out or uncomfortable. I would also think that would include someone believing they are the manners police correcting anyone else's manners. :rolleyes: That IMHO would be totally boorish and unacceptable.

 

LNF

 

As someone raised in the American deep south, I had 'manners' drilled in from the time I could focus...and, according to my well-heeled Nana, the worst faux pas is pointing out someone else's lack of them. I am ashamed to say that I have violated that edict myself a few times, though.

[schwaja3]

 

And yes, I am judgemental. When there are rules, they are for EVERYBODY! The rules on formal night say the men wear a tuxedo or a dark suit. That seems very simple to me. Nowhere in those 5 words did I read:

sport coat

shirt & tie (no coat)

jeans

motorcycle boots

leather motorcycle jacket

chinos

non-matching sport coat and pants

shirt without tie

knit shirt/no tie

tennis shoes

dock shoes

 

I do NOT believe that people are stupid and cannot read those 5 words - so that only leave the option of "I am so important that I can do whatever I want" option! I find the best way to deal with that option is to have them thrown out of the dining room and therefore they MIGHT think maybe they were NOT so important after all.

 

The problem cannot be $ as a dark suit, shirt, tie and belt can be purchased in Wal-mart for $99.99 total.

 

Study history - History always repeats itself!

 

First of all, you forget to include the line right before "those 5 words":

 

Suggested guidelines for these nights are:

Casual: Sport shirts and slacks for men, sundresses or pants for women

Smart Casual: Jackets and ties for men, dresses or pantsuits for women

Formal: Suits and ties or tuxedos for men, cocktail dresses for women

 

Last time I checked, Suggested means that it is not required. Until RCI states that suits or tuxes are required, than you have no businees saying any of this to that person.

 

As for the $, I am glad that you feel that money couldn't be the problem, as you can get a suit for $99. Maybe for other, $99 is a lot of money. Maybe the person in question has no use for a suit at all and doesn't want to spend that money for a suit he will wear only once.

 

Jack

[rxziebel]

It is your choice what kind of society we live in. What do you think social mores are:

 

"Social Mores: are strongly held norms or customs. These derive from the established practices of a society." YOU are part of society, it IS up to each of us to help establish GOOD practices of society.

 

If we, as a society except the norm to be people wearing hats in restaurants, never saying please or thank you, wearing of pants so that their underwear is handing out, etc. etc. These are not fads, these are the changing of our social mores.

 

If you stand by and do nothing Soddem and Gomorrah is what we will all have - and we are well on our way. I will bet you worry about recycling your trash or some other "green" issue, try putting a little of that effort into the society we live in. That is not being judgemental, that is just standing up for what you believe in.

 

And yes, I am judgemental. When there are rules, they are for EVERYBODY! The rules on formal night say the men wear a tuxedo or a dark suit. That seems very simple to me. Nowhere in those 5 words did I read:

sport coat

shirt & tie (no coat)

jeans

motorcycle boots

leather motorcycle jacket

chinos

non-matching sport coat and pants

shirt without tie

knit shirt/no tie

tennis shoes

dock shoes

 

I do NOT believe that people are stupid and cannot read those 5 words - so that only leave the option of "I am so important that I can do whatever I want" option! I find the best way to deal with that option is to have them thrown out of the dining room and therefore they MIGHT think maybe they were NOT so important after all.

 

The problem cannot be $ as a dark suit, shirt, tie and belt can be purchased in Wal-mart for $99.99 total.

 

Study history - History always repeats itself!

 

 

You are wrong on at least 2 counts. First, these are suggestions, not requirements. Second, since you are only paying for your own cruise, you can't force others to follow guidelines. If a person smells, or smokes in a non-smoking area, then that affects you directly and you have every right to complain. But how a person dresses does not affect your dinner, and frankly if you don't like it then you should leave.

 

For me, the Windjammer is much better than the dining room anyway, so I can feel relaxed in jeans. Also, in the WJ, I can eat when I want, what I want and in any quantity I want.

[TahoeBob]

"Social Mores: are strongly held norms or customs. These derive from the established practices of a society." YOU are part of society, it IS up to each of us to help establish GOOD practices of society.

My values might be different than yours

 

 

 

If you stand by and do nothing Soddem and Gomorrah is what we will all have - and we are well on our way. I will bet you worry about recycling your trash or some other "green" issue, try putting a little of that effort into the society we live in. That is not being judgemental, that is just standing up for what you believe in.

No reason to bring GOD into this argument, like I said your views may not be the same as mine, and you do not get to talk for everyone.

 

 

And yes, I am judgemental. When there are rules, they are for EVERYBODY! The rules on formal night say the men wear a tuxedo or a dark suit. That seems very simple to me.

Like others have said you forgot the part that said SUGGESTED

 

 

The problem cannot be $ as a dark suit, shirt, tie and belt can be purchased in Wal-mart for $99.99 total.

wrong again I did look at WalMart and could not find a suit that fit me for $99.00

 

Study history - History always repeats itself!

And could you tell me just how history fits in to this subject. When I was in College working on my History M.A. the subject of suits and rudeness on a Cruise never came up in one of my classes.

[Cruzin2paradise09]

It is your choice what kind of society we live in. What do you think social mores are:

 

"Social Mores: are strongly held norms or customs. These derive from the established practices of a society." YOU are part of society, it IS up to each of us to help establish GOOD practices of society.

 

If we, as a society except the norm to be people wearing hats in restaurants, never saying please or thank you, wearing of pants so that their underwear is handing out, etc. etc. These are not fads, these are the changing of our social mores.

 

If you stand by and do nothing Soddem and Gomorrah is what we will all have - and we are well on our way. I will bet you worry about recycling your trash or some other "green" issue, try putting a little of that effort into the society we live in. That is not being judgemental, that is just standing up for what you believe in.

 

And yes, I am judgemental. When there are rules, they are for EVERYBODY! The rules on formal night say the men wear a tuxedo or a dark suit. That seems very simple to me. Nowhere in those 5 words did I read:

sport coat

shirt & tie (no coat)

jeans

motorcycle boots

leather motorcycle jacket

chinos

non-matching sport coat and pants

shirt without tie

knit shirt/no tie

tennis shoes

dock shoes

 

I do NOT believe that people are stupid and cannot read those 5 words - so that only leave the option of "I am so important that I can do whatever I want" option! I find the best way to deal with that option is to have them thrown out of the dining room and therefore they MIGHT think maybe they were NOT so important after all.

 

The problem cannot be $ as a dark suit, shirt, tie and belt can be purchased in Wal-mart for $99.99 total.

 

Study history - History always repeats itself!

 

WOW -- <heavy sigh> . . . I don't want to justify myself to you, but in order to convey MY point, I think I will. I am a 40-somthing married woman with a teenager and a pre-teen. I was born & raised in NY (Long Island) and now live in the midwest. I was taught by my parents (and my grandparents put their 2 cents in when need be) to be polite, write thank you notes, say please and thank you, respect my elders, etc.. These are things that I have passed on to my daughters and I hope when they get married and have families will do the same thing.

 

But, my grandmother, God Bless her soul, was the perfect southern woman and I am here to tell you that if she were to see your postings here, she would do nothing more than turn up her nose and walk away. You see, she lived by the rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." And she would never ever ever ever ever ever ever (get the point) judge somebody else and then of all things, confront them and, IMHO, be a total you know what!

 

There are rude people everywhere, and you aren't going to change them. If you hold your head up high and live your life based on YOUR morals, and stop worrying about everyone else and what they do or don't do based on YOU, YOU might be a happier person, and not notice those YOU don't approve of. It's so easy for us to say "he didn't say please or thank you" when we only see/hear a snippet of a conversation . . . good grief.

 

I am just so dumbfounded that you feel that you need to be the Manners Police and decide whether or not someone should be called-out for something you don't approve of.

 

Please, if ever we are on the same cruise, do not attempt to come to me and criticize me for whatever you think I'm doing wrong -- don't do it -- it won't be pretty. And yes, at that point, my manner will be out the window.

 

[off my soapbox now]

[McReece]

Every day in daily life or on a cruise we see the rudeness or absentmindedness. It is not limited to Americans either. Every cruise I see folks who act as if they are in a walking coma, walking in front of people or standing in middle of a hallway rushing into the elevator before anyone can get off. Sometimes folks are just so caught up in the moment they don't realize their actions are impacting another person like bumping into them or talking way too loud or letting go of the door without looking back.

 

I see more deviations from the "suggested dress" not on formal night but on the last night. Curiously, it is also tip night.:rolleyes:

 

What can we do? Use the manners they don't and thereby illustrate their failure to do so.

 

I personally greet and say please and thank you to all of the staff on and off the ships. I use their name if I know it and I always try to make eye contact when I do. I make a sincere effort to connect with them before moving on. I do this every day at home, at work and in between. I enjoy treating people this way because of the response I get. It is a simple pleasure with great rewards and it is free.

 

Okay, I'm done.:o

[shirleygr]

I work in retail and really see all kinds of behavior. Some folks are very polite, some are in the ozone somewhere, some think they are entitled in some way. I applaud parents who teach their children to say please and thank you. My own have since they started to talk. I always say, never be in too much of a hurry to be courteous. And life is too short to be cranky. Works for me. I ignore people who are rude and just move on. My time is too precious to waste on someone else's behaviour, or dress. JMHO

[sagiv666]

Very well said. And, as a mother of two teen sons, I think it is my obligation to teach them manners. I'm not silent on the matter with others - if I can show them by example how to behave.

 

I don't think the lack of manners is an "American" thing. I think this is a generational thing - too many parents are more worried about being their kids' friends rather than their parents.

 

Manners and /or lack of them apply around the world. I would only voice a complaint if somneone is doing something that affects the well-being and health of passengers. Otherwise, I cruise to rest, not to study sociology.:)

[arcanium]

If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me but I have been under the impression that good etiquitte and manners dictates that one should never do or say anything to make another person feel singled out or uncomfortable. I would also think that would include someone believing they are the manners police correcting anyone else's manners. :rolleyes: That IMHO would be totally boorish and unacceptable.

 

LNF

 

This is what I was taught as well.

 

One thing I've noticed about the manners police is that they invariably end up being more insufferable than those they correct. It's tempting to believe that they use their loud corrections as justification for their own horrid behavior.

 

How I generally deal with rude people is excusing myself from their company or politely refusing their invitations.