Please Wash Your Hands

[Jimmers]

Someone (sagiv666, the biologist?) may correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the hand sanitizers do a thing for norovirus or the flu virus. They are virus based illnesses and the hand sanitizers only kill bacteria.

 

Hand washing is important. But where I see people, including myself, drop the ball is in not doing a thorough enough job. A quick one-two-three rub of the hands and that's that. Most sources say you should rub the hands together for at least 20 seconds.

 

Jimmers:)

[iheartbda]

What is the difference? Harmful germs are still spread to the passenger, and possibly throughout the ship.:eek:

 

You were making it sound like it was a matter of course in public restrooms.

 

Must not be a real big problem in the cabins because of the Save the Waves program. Would they implement such a program if it was potentially harmful? I'd be willing to guess that some people's towels have been on the floor and put back up.

[billybob123]

Someone (sagiv666, the biologist?) may correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the hand sanitizers do a thing for norovirus or the flu virus. They are virus based illnesses and the hand sanitizers only kill bacteria.

 

Hope I can fit the bill (PhD microbiologist) - you're half-right.

 

Bacteria, fungi, parasites, and higher organism cells all have a membrane around them - it's called the 'plasma membrane' (we all remember our grade 11 biology, right!?). Membranes are made up of molecules, mostly something called phospholipids, which have two particular characteristics - one end of the molecule can dissolve in water, while the other can't. Soap is made up of long molecules very similar to the non-soluble part of phospholipids. If we can remember back to our science classes, the saying "like dissolves like" holds true. The water-soluble part of the phospholipd will dissolve in water, while the water-insoluble part will dissolve in soap. When you dissolve the membrane, the cell (ALMOST ALWAYS!!) dies. Alcohol does the same thing - it can solubilize both the hydrophilic (soluble) and hydrophobic (insoluble) parts.

 

What becomes an issue is when you talk about viruses. Viruses can be separated into two groups for the purposes of this discussion. There are 'enveloped' and "non-enveloped" viruses:

 

1)Enveloped viruses have a membrane around them, and so are susceptible to soap and alcohol-based cleansers, and include famous viruses like HIV, Influenza, respiratory syncytial virus, SARS, hepatitis B and C viruses etc.

 

2)Non-enveloped viruses DO NOT have a membrane around them, and instead are protected by a protein coat called the "capsid". Proteins are basically insoluble in alcohol; soap will do something to the proteins called "denaturing" which makes them unfold and break down. When you denature proteins, you kill the virus. This is why alcohol-based hand sanitizers don't work on non-enveloped viruses, but soap and water, when used properly, will work close to 100% of the time. Important non-enveloped viruses include Polio, most common cold viruses, hepatitis A virus, papilloma viruses, and BOTH the major 'stomach flu' viruses like Rotavirus and the Norwalk and Norwalk-like viruses.

 

So that's why the hand sanitizer dispensers may not really do anything other than window dressing when it comes to eliminating stomach viruses.

 

Incidentally, the lysol wipes do nothing against the stomach viruses either, unless they contain BLEACH, which very few of them do. Bleach is probably the most effective sanitizer that is readily available - too bad it does such a number on our clothes!

[grandsix]

It is sad to see so many people leaving the Womens and Mens toilets without washing their hands. In all probability, they do no wash at home so it is part of their daily lifestyle.

[Cheerysmom]

Not to mention one individual who had thrown a towel on the floor expecting a clean replacement, only to have the attendant pick it up and replace it on the rack. Bad enough, but the individual termed it a "minor inconvenience".:eek:

 

Excuse me but ... I was that individual who posted that . .. the "minor inconvenience" I was referring to was finding the attendent to get fresh towels - which I did every day.

I am a little tired of your ranting and raving about this and insinuating that I am uncivilized. Drop it.

 

 

Did you know that the DIRTIEST part of the bathroom is the faucet handle? So after you wash your hands and think you are germ free, you then touch the same handle to shut the water off that all the dirty hands before you touched!! If the water doesn't shut off automatically, leave the water running, dry your hands and then use the same paper towel to shut the water off.

Can you tell I am a teacher? :)

 

Even dirtier is the "flush handle" of the toilet. Very few people even think to clean that! and you ALWAYS touch that BEFORE you wash .. . eeeewww.

[wieslaw]

Hope I can fit the bill (PhD microbiologist) ............

 

!

 

Hello billybob,

 

thank you for the explanation and you post.

It seems that what you have posted confirms the 'article / study' to which I have included the link in one of my posts above.

I appreciate your explanation - now I can understand that article even better.

 

It is still a mistery to me, how wife and I got the 'stomach flu virus' on our last cruise - we washed our hands so much and probably even overused the dispensors with the sanitizers ......... but we also touched so many things after the washing / sanitizers ...... even the chairs by the tables.

I do not know what virus we did get. The medical people on the ship did not specify, but did say it was virus and not bacteria oriented. They did not tell us to stay in the cabin ( we asked) and they did not disinfect the cabin ( to my surprize).

 

Thanks again for your post - I learned something from it.

 

Wes

[iheartbda]

Excuse me but ... I was that individual who posted that . .. the "minor inconvenience" I was referring to was finding the attendent to get fresh towels - which I did every day.

I am a little tired of your ranting and raving about this and insinuating that I am uncivilized. Drop it.

 

 

 

THANK YOU for showing up to clarify. Just goes to show how people can take things out of context to bolster their argument.

[rosebud1g]

There is NO sanitizer out there more effective than handwashing,according to the infection control nurse where I work.

sanitizers should NEVER be a subsitute if soap

and water are available.

[amybear912]

unfortunately...

 

The ones who need to take the suggestion of this post... are not people who visit Cruise Critic...

[mojodani]

For those of you who only use hand santitizers, they are not effective against C. Difficile spores (a pathogen that occurs after antibiotic therapy that kills healthy intestinal bacteria). C. diff is nasty.

 

I read some interesting data about norovirus while completing CEUs for licensure:

- the virus can be spread through recreational contact sports

- relatively high chlorine levels do not kill the virus so a person could contaminate an entire pool by shedding the virus in the fecal matter around the anal area (viral shedding in the stool can occur for 2-3 weeks)

- 20% of the US population seem to be resistant (correlates to blood type)

- virus can survive 3 days on a telephone and 1-2 days on a computer mouse and more than 2 days on carpet

 

I have a warning when it comes to proper handwashing. Do not touch the funky faucet handles with bare hands after washing. They are contaminated. Let the water run and take a clean, dry paper towel to turn off the water and another to open the door. The establishments that do not offer paper towels get a complaint and no further business from me.

 

We can only hope that our immune systems are healthy enough to resist these pesky pathogens. So, keep the stress level to a minimum, use your elbows to open doors, to balance yourself on the stairs, to touch the elevator buttons and to maneuver the mouse, flush with your foot, sneeze in your armpit but most importantly, have a wonderful cruise!

 

Joni

[willysgrandma]

Willysgrandma I am not singling you out just commenting on your post in general. When we sailed on the NCL SUN this past January we were always greeted by a worker (going into the buffet area) that not only reminded us to use the hand sanitizer but also stopped anyone who by- passed it. No one got to the food without using it. Not only that but we were not allowed on the ship after touring an island until the workers sprayed out hands with more sanitizer.

I guess I was wrong thinking that all Norwegian ships were concerned about not the spread of the norovirus.

 

No offense taken. The last three cruises I've been on, the experience, even between two different ships in the same line, are different.

 

On the Crown Princess, sanitizers were all over the buffet area and I saw most people use them, especially when they are posted where the dishes are located.

 

On the FOS, there were two stands with towelettes on the sides of the entrance. The towelettes were a pain in the neck, because there was only one garbage can next to them to put the towelette in. If you stopped to use it and throw the towelette out, you blocked others from coming into the buffet. While there was someone stationed at the entrance to the buffet were not pointing the sanitizers out. That is the cruise that I watched the most people walk into the buffet and not use the sanitizer.

 

And that was the cruise when I saw the most women in the ladies room not washing their hands. On that cruise, the majority of passengers were NOT American - they were mostly South American and European, so I was wondering if it was perhaps a cultural thing that we Americans are obsessive about washing and using the sanitizers.

 

On my Explorer cruise, the majority of passengers were from the East Coast and I noticed most people did wash their hands after using the rest room and more people used the sanitizers at the buffet. On that ship, there were two sanitizers in the middle of the entrance right next to an employee or two greeting people and more people did use the sanitizers which were liquid. But still a significant number of people didn't use them.

 

In my experience, the cruise that had the most people using the sanitizers was the one that had the sanitizers right before you picked up your dishes and then throughout the buffet area.

 

Perhaps we Americans are the ones obssessed with washing!

[volleyballmom87]

our school nurse put out a power point with a few interesting statistics.

 

ØDo you routinely wash your hands?

•94% of people say they wash their hands

•74% of women actually wash their hands

•61% of men actually wash their hands

•58% of middle school girls wash their hands Only 33% us soap

•48% of middle school boys wash their hands Only 8% use soap

•30% of people think to wash their hands after coughing or sneezing

•42% think about washing their hands after petting an animal

 

 

One study finds that there are 10,000,000 bacteria on the top of the average school desk. ØThat is 4,000,000 more than are found on the inside of the average toilet bowl!

It always blows me away how many students & adults come out of their stall, primp their hair and walk right out of the bathroom w/o washing. GROSS!

[Jimmers]

.

 

So that's why the hand sanitizer dispensers may not really do anything other than window dressing when it comes to eliminating stomach viruses.

 

Didn't want to re-qoute your whole post again but it was all good. Thanks for the great information on the differences between the various viruses and bacteria. If only I could memorize it, it would be great to impress my friends during our next dinner together, lol.

 

Perhaps your window dressing comment explains why the use of the sanitizing stations are hit and miss on the ships.

 

Jimmers

[iheartbda]

It always blows me away how many students & adults come out of their stall, primp their hair and walk right out of the bathroom w/o washing. GROSS!

 

While in college my son was so grossed out by this sort of thing that he wanted to put a sign on one particular student's door that said, "This person doesn't wash their hands after using the bathroom".

 

Like any kind of manners, it all starts in the home.

[Zaa]

I read with interest the posts on handwashing, we cruised on sea princess in 2005, they to had hand sanitizer in buffet restaurent, but from my observations about 1 in 3 passengers (different nationalities) passed it by, what disgusted me most was the number of people I saw picking up food with hands examining it and putting it back (tongs were provided and used by most) its neither wonder there were a few people affected by episodes of D & V on board (of course it may have been viral!) and we sadly got upset guts on last night.

Hand sanitizers work well but they are a poor substitute for soap and water after using the toilet and its amazing how many women I see leaving without washing hands or who dip their fingers in running water and believe that constitutes a handwash, furthermore sanitisers are not very effective against one of the worst D&V causes - Clostridium difficile which is spread by spores (which incidentally can also be triggered by antibiotics used for treating other infections and if on antiboitics take live yogurt drinks to help replace healthy bacteria killed off by antibiotics.).

My caution is always pack rehydration salts (Diorylite) and Loperimide (Immodium) in luggage just in case,

[ebk2795]

Like any kind of manners, it all starts in the home.

 

I agree 100%. Case in point: Sis and I are dining at a Chinese Buffet. We were eating our dessert, and we had no further trips to the buffet planned. In walks Mom, Dad, Daughter (pre-teen) and Son (around 6 or 7). As the family is filling their plates, Junior is touching and handling every utensil and running his hand over the plates. Mom and Dad don't seem to notice this. Then Junior picks up a piece of chicken in his bare hand and puts it back down. Still Mom and Dad are oblivious. After they fill their plates, they go back to their table. There are signs clearly stating that children under 10 should be accompanied by an adult at the buffet. Daughter and Junior then come back to the buffet. Junior's hand is hovering over the food, and I could sense that he was about to do it again. I couldn't zip my lip any more, and I said "YO!" Junior looked at me and withdrew his hand. He and his sister are walking around the food, and Juior keeps looking back at me to see if I was watching him. I warned two ladies sitting near us not to go for the chicken and told them why. When our server passed our table, I told her what had happened. She rolled her eyes, went over to the buffet, and got rid of the chicken.

All I could think was "I hope these people never show up on a cruise with me." If people behave this way at home, they are going to do the same thing on vacation.

[Jancruiser]

The thing that always makes me realllllly wonder is why, when I went to nursing school in the late 70's, in order for something to be sufficiently sanitized, did it have to be rinsed, scrubbed thoroughly, and then soaked in a strong alcohol solution for 20 minutes? And now, we put a little squirt of some liquid into our palms, rub it in, and we're supposed to be sanitized? I don't thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiink so. I think we are providing gym facilities for germs to build their strength, actually, and little more. Tease those germs, stir 'em up, and the next generation of germs will be even stronger than the ones we fear today. (And the next generation of germs could be here next week.) Call me crazy. BUT, here's the deal: Wash your hands, wash your hands, wash your hands. Wash them long enough to sing a verse of "Row, Row, Row Your Boat," wash between your fingers and wash some more, and then dry them WITH A TOWEL. (If you have to mechanically unroll the towel with a lever, use your wrist to operate the lever, OR operate the lever before you start washing your hands. Always assume the person before you did a wretched job of handwashing. Take no chances.) Use the towel THEN to turn off the faucet, with that same towel between your fingers and the faucet handle. THEN use that towel to touch the door handle to make your escape from the restroom. Avoid handrails as much as possible (use your elbow for light balance.) Air dryers? Imagine all the crap they are whipping up off the floor and into circulation--everything that has been tracked in on shoes. . . .use a towel. Wash your hands. Wash your hands. Wash your hands. J.

[mojodani]

we were cruising down I-75 from WDW and stopped at a McFast Food. The new employee was inexperienced with serving up a cone. Obviously, she had never cruised on a ship that had Sprinkles. She dribbled some of the "ice cream" on her hand and licked it off, not once but twice while we were in line. I got out of line and informed the manager on duty. We then ate at home!

 

Joni

[Cruising89143]

I have tried to be more aware now of not touching the railings when using the stairs. quote]

 

 

Did you know that the DIRTIEST part of the bathroom is the faucet handle? So after you wash your hands and think you are germ free, you then touch the same handle to shut the water off that all the dirty hands before you touched!! If the water doesn't shut off automatically, leave the water running, dry your hands and then use the same paper towel to shut the water off.

Can you tell I am a teacher? :)

 

The ships that I have been on do not have the handles. They use the electronic eye. I also keep the paper towel in my hand to open the bathroom door and then throw it away in the trash container by the door.

[iheartbda]

 

The ships that I have been on do not have the handles. They use the electronic eye. I also keep the paper towel in my hand to open the bathroom door and then throw it away in the trash container by the door.

 

Finally, more and more places are getting smart enough to put trash containers by the door. It was always hard to hold the door open with my foot while trying to make a basket across the room.:)

[sagiv666]

You were making it sound like it was a matter of course in public restrooms.

 

Must not be a real big problem in the cabins because of the Save the Waves program. Would they implement such a program if it was potentially harmful? I'd be willing to guess that some people's towels have been on the floor and put back up.

 

If you follow the suggestions of the ship (and of Royal Caribbean itself) as to how to request fresh towels and a cabin attendant disobeys these rules -- who are you defending?:eek:

[iheartbda]

If you follow the suggestions of the ship (and of Royal Caribbean itself) as to how to request fresh towels and a cabin attendant disobeys these rules -- who are you defending?:eek:

 

Not defending anyone just SHOULD have said a passenger may have dropped their towel on the floor at one time or another and put it back up, unbeknownst to the cabin steward.

[wieslaw]

Hi, billybob and sagiv,

since both of you are microbilogists, I would like to ask you to help me satisfy my own curiosity (after reading the 'study' conducted by Dr. Pengbu Liu ) ; why is the plain water more effective in removal of the viruses than washing with antibacterial soap ?

 

I would appreciate your explanation.

 

Here is the link to the study,, and there is the section that puzzles me.

 

http://www.asm.org/Media/index.asp?bid=42835

 

 

 

" They found that washing the fingers with plain water gave the greatest level of norovirus reduction, with an average of about 96% removal. Washing the fingers with an antibacterial liquid soap gave an average of about 88% removal. The alcohol-based sanitizer was not effective at removing the virus from the volunteers’ fingers and only resulted in an average removal of 46%. "

Thanks,

Wes

[MakinGold]

I wash my hands frequently. Then tend to get sticky from dipping my fingers in the dressings and sauces on the buffet. I hate that sticky feeling . . .

[Jimmers]

Hi, billybob and sagiv,

since both of you are microbilogists, I would like to ask you to help me satisfy my own curiosity (after reading the 'study' conducted by Dr. Pengbu Liu ) ; why is the plain water more effective in removal of the viruses than washing with antibacterial soap ?

 

I would appreciate your explanation.

 

Here is the link to the study,, and there is the section that puzzles me.

 

 

http://www.asm.org/Media/index.asp?bid=42835

 

 

 

" They found that washing the fingers with plain water gave the greatest level of norovirus reduction, with an average of about 96% removal. Washing the fingers with an antibacterial liquid soap gave an average of about 88% removal. The alcohol-based sanitizer was not effective at removing the virus from the volunteers’ fingers and only resulted in an average removal of 46%. "

 

Thanks,

Wes

 

 

I have a guess. The water flowing on and off the hands causes the virus to shed off the skin, whereas the other cleaners, used alone, just rub it about on the skin. We already know from the previous post that viruses are not killed by anti bacterial or alcohol based sanitizers.

 

But I'm not a micro-biologist so I could be wrong.

 

Jimmers:)