A Cautionary/Tragic Story

[CatServants]

This article was posted on the NCL boards under "Sad Story - May not be for the young". It's a tragic story which should serve as a cautionary tale for us all. Thanks, HoopTroop, for the article link.

 

http://www.virginislandsdailynews.co...me?id=17622350

 

I'm also giving the link to the NCL thread.

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=742762

 

The article is getting a mixed reaction. Everyone is saddened by the tragic events, but some feel the need to assess blame to parents & victims as well as those charged.

 

I expressed my thoughts on the NCL thread. If you know my writing habits, you know I wrote a LOONNNNGG post, and I'm not anxious to repeat it here!

 

Denise

[mdmourges]

Knowing the proximity of the adjacent cabins, etc., this is an odd sounding story. I think we should let it play out a while.

 

Mark

[cruisead]

Sorry, but there's just something fishy about this story. We all know, when someone is talking in the hallway, you can pretty much hear them. According to the story, the adults stood behind the teens at the doorway of the cabin, and told them they had to go inside their cabin. IF the teens didn't want to do that, all one of them had to do was start yelling. I would bet that at least 5 cabins would have heard the yelling. Even if there was a scuffle with the teens and the adults, passengers in the other cabins would have heard a fight. I know you're all saying there shouldn't be speculation, and the media reports could be mistaken, but there's just something here that doesn't sit right.

 

And I wonder, how long will it take before some unscrupulous lawyer will file some kind of lawsuit against NCL.

[Conrycol]

Wow a lot of compassion for two scared kids. Don't you think we should be giving them the benefit of the doubt. Do you think they would have told their parents right after the incident happened, if it wasn't true? FBI did an investigation and made the arrest!

[CatServants]

Knowing the proximity of the adjacent cabins, etc., this is an odd sounding story. I think we should let it play out a while.

 

Mark

 

Mark - We may never know all the details of this story, or it's conclusion. But I'll tell you the same thing I just wrote on the NCL thread (in a MUCH longer post!;)).

 

Proximity and shared walls do NOT insure safety or witnesses. If they did, there wouldn't be any rapes/assaults/murders on cruise ships, in hotels, apartments, condos, neighborhoods, etc.

 

The article NEVER says the teens screamed or yelled. It simply says they felt intimidated and pressured.

 

I always feel safe on cruise ships. Heck, I pretty much feel safe all the time. You know what that makes me? A happy and well adjusted fool!;)

 

Denise

[CatServants]

Sorry, but there's just something fishy about this story. We all know, when someone is talking in the hallway, you can pretty much hear them. According to the story, the adults stood behind the teens at the doorway of the cabin, and told them they had to go inside their cabin. IF the teens didn't want to do that, all one of them had to do was start yelling. I would bet that at least 5 cabins would have heard the yelling. Even if there was a scuffle with the teens and the adults, passengers in the other cabins would have heard a fight. I know you're all saying there shouldn't be speculation, and the media reports could be mistaken, but there's just something here that doesn't sit right.

 

And I wonder, how long will it take before some unscrupulous lawyer will file some kind of lawsuit against NCL.

 

 

Tracie - :)PLEASE don't make me copy my post. I quoted you and responded to you on the NCL thread.:)

 

Thanks

 

Denise

[MsDee23]

At 16, I had enough common sense to know that if I went into someone's room who offered me booze, the outcome would probably be no good.

In addition to that, walking around a cruise ship with strangers I just met days before at nearly midnight. No WAY would my parents allow this. I had an 11pm curfew with I was 19!

[woodofpine]

I was a pretty hard partying 16 year old that travelled alone in Europe. I've paid my own prices for my development, but they were 'my prices'... my acts, my trials and tribulations, not my parents or those I ran with.

 

C'mon, am I the only one grinning at the 'intimidated into drinking alcohol and having sex' line... :D in the facts presented. I hung out with older kids - college age - when I was 16-17 and there wasn't much intimidation going on. Sounds like some post party remorse turned ugly here.

 

That's a sad thing in its own right, but as far as criminal conduct goes... as an attorney (e-gads) my opinion is that any charge more than, providing alcohol to a minor, sounds trumped up and given the ambiguity of 'drinking age' at sea even that may not stick as a criminal offense (or course they were not far offshore so it'll probably stick).

 

What I'm pleased about (as a cruiser... with a teen daughter) is that NCL took such a law enforcement pro active position. Ultimate outcome or not, the deterrence is in handling it as it was handled. NCL's had some truly (undeniably) bad situations in the past, so that, combined with the effect that the (probably rightfully) oft lambasted Ms. Hegel Smith has had on the industry has prompted a strong security response. Cheers to that!

[FinelyCruising]

I am also VERY PLEASED that these two had such a wonderful relationship with their parents that they were secure enough and comfortable enough to let them know what had just happened. If the story is as pure as it is written, the families were able to participate in the problem solving a situation like this creates, and it sounds like that is what happened.

 

This is the families issue, and not anyone else's here on any of these boards to judge. But for the positive idea that people cannot be trusted no matter where you go, that we all already know and teach one another, and teach the young ones but not to the extend they become socially crippled. To suggest otherwise is pretty absurd.

[Amlee]

There is also a thread going on the RCI board. I said this on there and I'll say it on here.

 

What happened to kids being taught to scream, yell and draw attention to them self if they are being pushed into doing something they didn't want to do?

 

In the late 70s, 80s, and early 90s when I was growing up, we were taught to start yelling and screaming. Unless those men had a weapon there is no way at the age of 16 could they have forced me into doing anything, unless they knocked me out. As I would have brought down the house letting everyone know that I didn't want to go.

 

I also find the story fishy.

[rebeccalouise]

For the sake of argument. I think the story happened the way the kids perceived it.

 

Perhaps it was a prank that went terribly wrong.

 

When I was a teenager, a neighborhood boy invited me over to his house. He kept trying to lure me down to his bedroom. He asked me to come look at something. He was acting weird and I should have known better.

 

When I got down to his room, he sat on the bed and tried to kiss me. At that point I pushed him away and walked up to the next level. Then I heard laughter. I went back down to his room and there were three boys coming out of his closet.

 

They proceeded to jump on me. I looked one of the boys in the eye and said in a frightened voice "Why are you doing this to me." He came to his senses and told the other boys to get off of me. I cursed at them and left.

 

I don't know if they just hoped that I would have sex with the boy and were going to watch from the closet or what!

 

Or maybe they just wanted to jump out and freak me out.

 

Whatever the case was- it was weird and scarey and I never told my mother. I blamed myself for being there. I wondered if the boys thought that I was "loose". I wasn't but looked older than my 15 years and looked mature.

 

Things happen. When alcohol is involved there might also be mixed signals. If the couple truly did have sex in the room with strangers- they sent mixed signals for sure!

 

Not blaming the kids entirely but I wonder what happened that made the kids befriend these older guys in the first place? Not blaming anyone but there is something missing here. It will come out.

[Schplinky]

Why are all of the same people who were arguing this on the other boards bringing it over here to argue about? It's just the same people making the same arguments with a different audience.

[CatServants]

Why are all of the same people who were arguing this on the other boards bringing it over here to argue about? It's just the same people making the same arguments with a different audience.

 

 

Since I'm one of those "people", Schplinky, I'll tell you why.

 

Let's start by removing the word "arguing" and saying, "So what?". I think we're discussing a horrifying event, which could occur on ANY ship, with ANY cruise line. I hope EVERY cruise line would handle the situation as well as NCL.

 

DISCUSSING these events on various boards expands our opinion pool. I like 'hearing' many opinions, from many sources to increase my awareness. I'm a strong woman. I, like everyone on these boards, enjoy expressing my opinion. I have learned a lot of things in the past 2 days that I never before considered BY BEING ON MORE THAN 1 BOARD.

 

I generally don't consider quite a few of the issues that have come up. I, we, can learn from one another. Isn't that the point to ANY discussion on these boards? Sharing facts and opinions? Expanding our knowledge? Giving and receiving information?

 

No one ever told me that this was only to occur for me on the X boards and that I'm to stay off any other boards. And I don't think posters from other boards should ever be, or feel, unwelcome here.

 

We're all registered with CC, not a particular board or cruise line. EVERY board on this site is open to us all as long as we remain respectful and courteous toward one another.

 

Now perhaps you can explain to me why you seem to feel that safety/rape/assault/teens/parenting/drinking on cruise ships is a topic unworthy of discussion on EVERY board? Do you feel this discussion should be limited to the NCL boards because this particular event occurred on an NCL ship? Don't you feel that these, or similar events, have occurred, or could occur on a X ship?

 

Pax safety on any ship should be a viable point of discussion for all of us no matter what board we commonly frequent. I think it puts all of our dress code discussions in perspective.

 

I'm leaving in a week for an April 6th Carib cruise. My 12 year old niece will be among our group. Why wouldn't I want to discuss/learn/debate with as many people as possible on such an important cruise subject?

 

I always enjoy your posts, but I understand that there are subjects which don't interest you, or other posters. So, of course, you always have the option of bypassing this, or similar threads on other boards. That doesn't mean I must do the same.

 

Happy cruising!

 

Denise

[mdmourges]

The way I see it, we are discussing a news story that needs to be vetted out. We weren't there so we don't know all the facts. Just because the FBI arrested someone doesn't make the story factual. We all know the story of the Duke lacrosse players. And part of my skepticism comes from being 17 once and know what I would have done. And yes, I have children too.

 

Mark

[Schplinky]

Since I'm one of those "people", Schplinky, I'll tell you why.

 

Let's start by removing the word "arguing" and saying, "So what?". I think we're discussing a horrifying event, which could occur on ANY ship, with ANY cruise line. I hope EVERY cruise line would handle the situation as well as NCL.

 

DISCUSSING these events on various boards expands our opinion pool. I like 'hearing' many opinions, from many sources to increase my awareness. I'm a strong woman. I, like everyone on these boards, enjoy expressing my opinion. I have learned a lot of things in the past 2 days that I never before considered BY BEING ON MORE THAN 1 BOARD.

 

I generally don't consider quite a few of the issues that have come up. I, we, can learn from one another. Isn't that the point to ANY discussion on these boards? Sharing facts and opinions? Expanding our knowledge? Giving and receiving information?

 

No one ever told me that this was only to occur for me on the X boards and that I'm to stay off any other boards. And I don't think posters from other boards should ever be, or feel, unwelcome here.

 

We're all registered with CC, not a particular board or cruise line. EVERY board on this site is open to us all as long as we remain respectful and courteous toward one another.

 

Now perhaps you can explain to me why you seem to feel that safety/rape/assault/teens/parenting/drinking on cruise ships is a topic unworthy of discussion on EVERY board? Do you feel this discussion should be limited to the NCL boards because this particular event occurred on an NCL ship? Don't you feel that these, or similar events, have occurred, or could occur on a X ship?

 

Pax safety on any ship should be a viable point of discussion for all of us no matter what board we commonly frequent. I think it puts all of our dress code discussions in perspective.

 

I'm leaving in a week for an April 6th Carib cruise. My 12 year old niece will be among our group. Why wouldn't I want to discuss/learn/debate with as many people as possible on such an important cruise subject?

 

I always enjoy your posts, but I understand that there are subjects which don't interest you, or other posters. So, of course, you always have the option of bypassing this, or similar threads on other boards. That doesn't mean I must do the same.

 

Happy cruising!

 

Denise

 

If you read my responses when the exact same things were said by the exact same posters all over again on the other threads, you will know my feelings about passenger safety, which are rather strongly stated. I do think that this is an important issue. It just seemed weird to have the same discussion, amongst the same people for a new "audience." It "seemed" like folks were hoping that saying the same things over again to different people would get them a different reaction.

 

I don't think the discussion should be necessarily limited to the NCL board but it feels a lot like gossip or fear-mongering when its migrated to each and every board. I also did not say you were not permitted to discuss whatever you like and I certainly did not say "that safety/rape/assault/teens/parenting/drinking on cruise ships is a topic unworthy of discussion."

 

That said, folks don't seem to be discussing what others can do to protect themselves so much as they are judging the parenting skills of others and whether these teens can be believed.

[CatServants]

If you read my responses when the exact same things were said by the exact same posters all over again on the other threads, you will know my feelings about passenger safety, which are rather strongly stated. I do think that this is an important issue. It just seemed weird to have the same discussion, amongst the same people for a new "audience." It "seemed" like folks were hoping that saying the same things over again to different people would get them a different reaction.

 

I don't think the discussion should be necessarily limited to the NCL board but it feels a lot like gossip or fear-mongering when its migrated to each and every board. I also did not say you were not permitted to discuss whatever you like and I certainly did not say "that safety/rape/assault/teens/parenting/drinking on cruise ships is a topic unworthy of discussion."

 

That said, folks don't seem to be discussing what others can do to protect themselves so much as they are judging the parenting skills of others and whether these teens can be believed.

 

I can't argue with you when you're right!;)

 

You know, I have learned a few things from these threads. Security, particularly for the young, is important. I just never give it a thought. Ignorant bliss. Intellectually, we all KNOW terrible things can happen while on vaca, but for some reason, we think it's a Disney world when we're on a cruise. That false sense of security is SOOOO dangerous.

 

I know I never intentioned any fear mongering and I'm truly sorry if I encouraged any. But, I think, events such as the one reported in the article (accurate representation of the facts or not), encourages discussion and the sharing of ideas. Like you, I also would like this discussion to be about ideas for security and safety so that events such as the one described can be prevented.

 

I'm sure I don't need to tell you how many seemingly unattended children there are on cruise ships. But, how do you balance the need for freedom and the healthy growth of self-reliance/independence, with the need for safety/protection? I certainly don't know the answer.

 

This is fodder for discussion. What type of 'tricks' do you use to give your children freedom on a cruise, while still keeping them under the safety of your protection?

 

Denise

[CatServants]

By the way, here's a follow up article from the same source:

 

http://www.virginislandsdailynews.com/index.pl/article_home?id=17622412

 

It's about a bail hearing for the 3 accused.

[FinelyCruising]

I think the way this follow up article was written and the ideas it creates is going to create more controversy.

 

Leaving it alone might be best.

[CatServants]

I think the way this follow up article was written and the ideas it creates is going to create more controversy.

 

Leaving it alone might be best.

 

FC - I think I understand what you're hinting at, and, sadly, you're probably right. I have a great deal of faith in all our fellow CC posters, but...

 

I don't know, maybe I'll just stay off the X board for a while. I'm feeling a bit disillusioned that posters would rather judge/attack one another than commiserate and help find solutions.

 

At any rate, I felt obligated to run the follow up article link. Perhaps now this thread can die an ugly death.

 

Happy AND SAFE cruising!

 

Denise

[Schplinky]

The boards are wonky just right now.

 

I posted a long post (and thank you to Cat for taking my comments as I meant them) and it didn't post.

 

Here are my tips for your safety. We don't have kids so these are more general.

 

- We have taken partin a number of very friendly roll calls. That said, we understand that before we meet them, these are friendly people and are not our friends. We do not divulge any personal info that we wouldn't tell a stranger. The roll calls can have an intimacy about them that promotes chattiness.

 

- On a roll call, we've stopped saying what our cabin is. Some people like to make a map of where "everyone" is on the ship but again, you don't really know these people.

 

- I try hard not to ever use my last name on CC. It's just not a good idea to un-necessarily put out too much personal information.

 

- We don't put a personalised page on our cabin door. Some people put a sheet up that says "the Smiths" or whwatever but there is no real need to do this. If you really think you won't be able to distinguish your own room, put a magnet that doesn't say anything about you. By the way, our name is not Smith.

 

- For the same reason, I'm not a big fan of hanging out my room service order the night before. We can just easily phone it in and that way, your name isn't hanging in the hall.

 

- Never leave a key in the room. I know sometimes folks don't want to take both keys (no pockets in some outfits) but you should lock it away then. A dishonest employee could take your key and let themselves in later. You might be saying they could do that with their pass key but then the computer would know it was staff that let themselves in. I didn't know these things were so meticulous but when Paul Smith, the honeymooner, went missing on Brilliance, Vanity Fair published all the times his door was opened that night and by whom. Apparently, the system knows which key opened the door and when. If you leave your key, then a maid could take the key and come back later much more anonymously.

 

- Never write your room number on your key. We've seen several people do this over the years. If you drop it, others could pick it up and be back to your room before you realize it's gone.

[FinelyCruising]

Denise - I don't mind what you are doing by presenting it. I think this article sets up a new furor which is not your doing. What occurred with these individuals then and in the subsequent days is a bad thing on many levels.

 

I happen to be more than sick and tired of years and years of parent bashing on the boards. Realistically there will always be that kind of dialog... the I'm a better parent/smarter adult than you are because I know how to control kids and you don't. It like the event that occurred is real life, and real life is not just limited to cruise ships and these boards, it happens in neighborhoods and schools and social circles and practically any environment where people suggest they know how to do it better than you do.

 

That kind of strife will always be around no matter where you go.:o

[CatServants]

schplink - thanks for the tips/ideas.:) You know, you nailed one of my problems. I'm VERY friendly and chatty, especially on Roll Calls. My DH tries to rein me in, but he spends so little time on the boards, he usually doesn't know what I'm doing. I often blurt out every detail of our cruise before giving it a thought. This medium gives the illusion of friendship, when the reality can be very different. As I mentioned before on this thread, I'm a happy, well adjusted fool!

 

FC - Thanks. Thanks for just being you!:)

 

Happy cruising!

 

Denise