Still waiting on Southwest

[parody]

Also, WN FF credits have a more severe expiration rate than any other program in North America.

 

While this was once true when WN FF miles expired after 1 year, currently they now expire after 2 years of inactivity. This is now better than United and US Airways (I think) and certain other airlines which expire after 18 months. In addition, because of financial considerations, some airlines like US will shortly institute a "processing fee" for award tickets. Thus, they are no longer free.

 

While FF programs have many peculiarities, because WN's program is segment based, folks could make many SHORT HAUL trips to obtain segments and then use the free award ticket for a long haul trip. (And for a while one could get double segments by booking online.) Of course, given that they only fly 737s, its a short to medium haul aircraft which prohibits them from flying coast to coast. Still, Wikipedia states that a 737 lands or takes off every 5 seconds.

[greatam]

 

When you say that Southwest sets their prices after they see how full the flights are on other Airlines, how do you know that? Now I can understand seeing what the prices are and how many seats are for sale then setting prices from there, but for them to do what you are suggesting I think would be illegal.

 

My understanding is that how many seats are sold or for sale at a particular price, and what the lids are for a flight is proprietary data. I might be wrong but I couldn’t find anything on the Internet to confirm it.

Happy flights and cruising!!!

 

As nho9504 posted, there are publicly available (paid subscription) data bases to check the "load" on a plane.

 

There are also proprietary data bases, available to those in the transportation industry, where I can check the "load" on almost any plane flying (EXCEPT WN and a couple of Asian airlines). I NEED this info-I ship freight world wide via planes, trucks and ships. If I have a last minute order, I need to be able to look at who might have available space. And that last minute space is largely determined by how many passengers are on board.

 

WN does NOT allow me to see how full their planes are flying. But through this particular database, WN could see how the "load" is on other airlines flying the same route. It doesn't take much math to extrapolate the fact that AA flight XXXX can only handle an additional 2000 pounds of NON CONTRACTED freight. Means the plane is almost full. I am sure WN does not subscribe to this particular database. Why would they???? They have their own yield management system which will give them the information. All airlines do-how do you think on highly competitive routes, airline fare gets changed several times daily to reflect competitors prices?

 

What airlines CANNOT do-Airline A and Airline B CANNOT get together IN ADVANCE on a route they service and FIX the prices, fuel surcharges, etc. etc. BA and Virgin just got fined quite a bit for fixing the fuel surcharge IN ADVANCE. Doesn't mean that one cannot IMMEDIATELY follow with the same identical surcharge. They just can't AGREE IN ADVANCE.

 

And since WN is the latecomer always to posting prices and schedules, they have a LARGE advantage. When the cheap fares are sold out on the other airlines, WN uses that as a starting price level when they set prices. Nothing illegal about it. Just means that quite a few people missed out on the CHEAPEST fares. Even adding in bag charges, the latest schedule release on WN shows fares on quite a few routes that are CONSIDERABLY higher than the legacies. PHX/MCI is showing $94.00 higher average in late January over AA's fares, INCLUDING checking in 2 bags both ways ($80.00)

[parody]

When the cheap fares are sold out on the other airlines, WN uses that as a starting price level when they set prices.

 

While this could very well be their practice today in this ever-changing and uncertain world of higher fuel prices, it has not been their practice in the past. In defining the "Southwest Effect", Wikipedia states, Southwest offered dramatically lower air fares than established airlines that usually enjoyed a near-monopoly in the communities. Thus, their historical practice is to significantly undercut the fares being offered by the majors and is certainly one reason why airport managers desperately try to coax them into the market.

[wrp96]

We've been talking about what to do for Thanksgiving and I checked fares on Southwest versus other airlines for bringing my brother and SIL home. Southwest is over $200 more expensive than AA (so even with a roundtrip cost of $80 for 2 checked bags you would still be saving $120) and over $100 more expensive than Delta and Northwest. Contrast this with Thanksgiving a year ago, where Southwest was around the same price as other carriers.

 

I took a look at the Little Rock to Dallas route, where AA and Southwest traditionally have had equal pricing. Southwest is $50 more expensive than AA for their cheapest flight (and the price goes up from there).

 

Southwest is taking advantage of the fact that people were taking a gamble they would be cheaper (and honestly I cannot fault a company for doing that - it's what capitalism is all about). But I know many people who assume that Southwest is cheaper so don't look anywhere else - that is what I can fault.

[greatam]

While this could very well be their practice today in this ever-changing and uncertain world of higher fuel prices, it has not been their practice in the past. In defining the "Southwest Effect", Wikipedia states, Southwest offered dramatically lower air fares than established airlines that usually enjoyed a near-monopoly in the communities. Thus, their historical practice is to significantly undercut the fares being offered by the majors and is certainly one reason why airport managers desperately try to coax them into the market.

 

The "historical" practices ended between 5 and 7 years ago. At that point in time, WN's prices were edging upward or holding and only in certain leisure markets were the prices significantly BELOW the legacies. But very few pax even compared prices for leisure flights. Quite a few automatically chose WN and booked without comparison shopping. It was ASSUMED WN had the lowest prices to leisure destinations.

 

I have been comparing for years. I don't fly WN but I am always looking for the best price for my employees. Those flights are not to leisure markets. Pricing changed significantly after 9/11. And for at least 5 years, WN has NOT been CHEAPER in quite a few BUSINESS markets-Dallas, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc. Quite often they have been competitive, but not CHEAPER. So I put my employees on the legacies so they can have the full range of benefits (quite a few of them like those free trips to Alaska so they can visit our ex employee who works in Prudhoe).

 

I only point out again-waiting for WN to post prices and schedules MAY cost you quite a bit. You may have missed the cheapest prices.

[greatam]

Southwest is over $200 more expensive than AA (so even with a roundtrip cost of $80 for 2 checked bags you would still be saving $120) and over $100 more expensive than Delta and Northwest. Contrast this with Thanksgiving a year ago, where Southwest was around the same price as other carriers.

 

 

As I posted previously, I need to get employees from PHX or California to Missouri in January for a company meeting. Even adding in $80 for baggage, PHX/MCI was $94.00 higher on WN. So I'm keeping the extra money and we will all go out for a fancy dinner. AND they are all flying AA, so the miles will help get two of them to Alaska for free next summer.

[cherylandtk]

I guess my situation is entirely different than most posters. (And I have the greatest respect for Greatam and her knowledge) WN is the largest volume carrier out of my airport, Albuquerque. Legacy carriers are currently offering about $650 for RT flights from ABQ to FLL next March over spring break (for the days and times I would like). I have been watching it since March of this year, and the lowest I have seen it is ~$500 + fees, but it was not compatible with ship arrival times. And most of those require TWO changes of plane, many hours and headaches of connecting flights.

 

WN flights are not open yet for that time frame. But in looking at the holiday pricing over Thanksgiving and Christmas and comparing, WN is about $50 lower than the legacy carriers. Which means I am looking at that $600-$800 fare for next March. So it absolutely KILLS me to read that Judy (twobuckbear) can fly completely cross country, from California to FLL, for $280 RT. I suspect other pax in smaller airports are facing the same pricing problem I do.

 

I am not necessarily a WN fan, it's just that they still have the lowest cost flights out of ABQ. I just wish I could see some of those $280 fares to FLL on ANYBODY out of here for next March. I would snap that up in a heartbeat. (Now if I want to fly my route next month, no problem...all the legacies are around $200)

 

And yes, I even look at driving/flying (adding a full day) to PHX or DEN to see if their pricing is any better--by the time I add in hotel and gas, it seems to work out to be a wash or worse. I have looked at going in a day earlier or staying a day later...I am just frustrated with ALL airlines at this point.

[Sue (mom of 3 boys!)]

Can someone say listen to Greatam. :D

 

I listened-Thanks Greatam!!:)

 

We are on AirTran from Boston. About $280 per person at PEAK February vacation time here in the northeast. I know Southwest hasn't opened their fares for then yet, but based on what's there now, I am very happy I booked when I did. We paid more on Southwest in 2007 for the same days we are flying in 2009 (including the seat assignment fees). I really have been pleased with Southwest, but not willing to gamble this time around....

 

Thanks Greatam!

[wrp96]

I am not necessarily a WN fan, it's just that they still have the lowest cost flights out of ABQ. I just wish I could see some of those $280 fares to FLL on ANYBODY out of here for next March. I would snap that up in a heartbeat. (Now if I want to fly my route next month, no problem...all the legacies are around $200)

 

 

Oh believe me, I understand where you are coming from. To get anywhere but a hub in the central US, we have to fly somewhere else. I would LOVE to be able to fly most places for less than $300. I think Southwest is the largest carrier out of our local airport. But even though they are the largest they are rarely the cheapest. That Southwest fare to Dallas I was talking about - over $200 roundtrip for a flight that lasts 55 minutes.

[nho9504]

While this was once true when WN FF miles expired after 1 year, currently they now expire after 2 years of inactivity. This is now better than United and US Airways (I think) and certain other airlines which expire after 18 months. In addition, because of financial considerations, some airlines like US will shortly institute a "processing fee" for award tickets. Thus, they are no longer free.

 

While FF programs have many peculiarities, because WN's program is segment based, folks could make many SHORT HAUL trips to obtain segments and then use the free award ticket for a long haul trip. (And for a while one could get double segments by booking online.) Of course, given that they only fly 737s, its a short to medium haul aircraft which prohibits them from flying coast to coast. Still, Wikipedia states that a 737 lands or takes off every 5 seconds.

 

I have 0 knowledge on WN FF program becaue I dont fly it at all.

 

But I am curious to learn about are segment and miles the only 2 ways to be counted as activity in order to maintain the "live" status of your account balance?

 

For the legacy airlines, you literally dont have to fly for years, and still be able to maintain the "live" status of your account - credit card spending, rental car, hotel stay, dining out, shopping thru the portal from airline's website, sending flowers to your mom, donating miles to charities, and even redeem miles for any awards - counted as activity, and you only need ONE single activity to extend the life of your balance another 18 months from the date of activity. More over, even if your account expired, if you have unposted activity that happened before the expiration date, your account would be re-opened, AUTOMATICALLY, as soon as the belated posting occured. Finally, you are offered an opportunity to re-instate your balance, for a fee, if everything failed, and you really want your miles back.

 

Frankly, I dont see HOW in the world, anyone has a meaningful balance could let miles expired, for you dont need to fly to do that. We have not flew American for any paid ticket for 2 years, but because of my January redemption, my account's life is extended to June of 2009. How hard that is to maintain your programs alive when day-to-day activities such as dining out, could put another 18 months life to your balance?

 

Another question is, does WN program only let you benefit when you earn the free ticket? If you are short of that, you are stuck and could not enjoy anything, vs the other FF programs that you can use miles for upgrade as well as a ticket with co-payment (CO does that, miles + co-payments for markets where it has excess capacity).

 

FF award tickets are never "free" in the sense if "free" means 0 out of pocket costs - you always have to pay taxes and sometimes processing fee as well as expedite fee. That is the case ever since we started using award travel aggressively from 5 years ago.

 

There are just too much misperception about the FF programs that lead to mis-information, and I feel the need to post the more detailed information for education purposes.

[parody]

Heck, when you look at the state of California, going Up and Down, there are enough people travel on that N-S route that probably account for a big bulk of traffic on WN, given CA is the most populous state in the country.

 

While it is certainly true that WN has a large presence between LAX and OAK, they operate and carry many more passengers between Dallas and Houston. Click here to see their top 20 O/D markets.

 

But I am curious to learn about are segment and miles the only 2 ways to be counted as activity in order to maintain the "live" status of your account balance?

 

You can also earn WN segments by renting cars, staying at selected hotels, and using credit cards.

 

There are just too much misperception about the FF programs that lead to mis-information, and I feel the need to post the more detailed information for education purposes.

 

Very true. From their website, WN boasts: Customers have honored Southwest Airlines Rapid Rewards by voting us the winner in seven categories at the 20 th Annual Freddie Awards, including first place in the following categories: Best Member Communications, Best Award, and Best Award Redemption.

[nho9504]

Very true. From their website, WN boasts: Customers have honored Southwest Airlines Rapid Rewards by voting us the winner in seven categories at the 20 th Annual Freddie Awards, including first place in the following categories: Best Member Communications, Best Award, and Best Award Redemption.

 

Only if you do not fly international, and are content on the $200 to $300 value of the RR reward tickets that you can get from the domestic travel. OK, may be now it is $300 to $500, who knows how much expensive flights from some regional airport can get.

 

Can WN RR let you do a stop over and an open jaw on the redemption?

 

I like to look at the FF programs from a "Value" standpoint - where I spent 0.01 per mile, but redeem value can go as high as 0.04 to 0.05 on domestic rewards and as high as 0.10 on international premium cabin award.

 

AA let me do both stopover and open jaw on both domestic and international awards - essentially have 2 trips into 1 award ticket. AA let you do 1 stopover EACH on both domestic and internation gateway cities. That is 4 trips into 1 award ticket. Our current award tickets let us visit Switzerland for a week, between Barcelona and Miami. It also let us visit Toronto for a few days before we fly back from Miami to Barcelona. So we have 2 trips in Europe - Barcelona, AND Zurich, and 2 trips in North America - drop by Toronto to see families AND fly back to Barcelona. The miles used are 90K, the "value" I get, for the identical itinerary on EXACT carriers which include IB, AA & BA when priced in January was $9,800. I dont know how much it is now - could be higher, could be lower. I am pretty sure it would never go down to less than $6 to 7000 for the whole thing. That is a redemption value of almost 0.07 per mile used when used $6,000 as metric.

 

2 years ago we redeemed the ubiqious 25K AA domestic awards for our Alaska cruise PLUS a 10 day stay in YVR, PLUS a 5 days trip at Yellowstone National Park. Flew from FLL to ANC via DFW, took a SB cruise to YVR. Spent 10 days with families. Flew from YVR to DFW for a forced overnight, then flew from DFW to JAC for the yellowstone trip. After we finished, we flew home JAC/DFW/FLL. This is at least 2 trips in one, if not 3 trips in one, for a measly 25K.

 

The ANC trip itself, no matter how I sliced it, would cost $600+. When the JAC is thrown in, the cost jumped to almost $1000.

 

Can RR award let me do 2 trips in this fashion?

 

We always happily purchase our cheapie $200ish Coast to Coast flight on AA or UA, and pocket the 5K miles each trip. We have one coming up in Sept now, bought 3 weeks ago - FLL/DFW/SJC roundtrip for a grand total of $240 AI on AA.

 

Let WN earn all the Freddie it can. What really matters is the impact to our pocket book - for that, I dont see HOW in the world WN can offer the remotely comparable VALUE. But let's keep it hush hush, and let the voters who vote WN continue to fly WN, so we can continue to enjoy great Value when using the legacy programs. :D

 

P.S. UA while it does not let you have BOTH stopover and open jaw, it is EITHER, OR, but UA has the international 23hour59min layover rule - so you can essentially have quite a few long layovers at your favorite cities on your routing and have fun or visit friends for the day. Great cities for doing that would be major capital cities in Europe, Sydney and Auckland, Hong Kong, Singapore and even Tokyo, despite NRT is quite far away but the train takes only an hour to get to town...

 

There are many small details the WN devotees do not know about the legacy FF programs. And probably it is better that way - less competition for folks who know. :)