Blackjack question

[Slyfox16]

On the Jewel are the Blackjack games dealt from a shoe or a continuous shuffle machine? Any 2 deck games and do they have Spanish 21? Thanks

[NoPiratesPlease]

All of NCL uses both. However, you won't find a shoe game for less than $10/hand, and, on some NCL ships, depending on the route, you have to play $25 B/J to get a shoe. Some ships have $5 minimums, others have $10. Again, it depends on the route. A CTN on the Dawn from NYC has only $25 tables at night, but a CTN on the Dream out of Boston has $5 and $10 tables.

 

When there's a shoe, NCL uses 8 decks and always puts the red card in with at least 2 decks left, so if you are counting, it's much, much harder to win.

 

I've never seen 2-deck on a ship.

[smeyer418]

All of NCL uses both. However, you won't find a shoe game for less than $10/hand, and, on some NCL ships, depending on the route, you have to play $25 B/J to get a shoe. Some ships have $5 minimums, others have $10. Again, it depends on the route. A CTN on the Dawn from NYC has only $25 tables at night, but a CTN on the Dream out of Boston has $5 and $10 tables.

 

When there's a shoe, NCL uses 8 decks and always puts the red card in with at least 2 decks left, so if you are counting, it's much, much harder to win.

 

I've never seen 2-deck on a ship.

 

The Majesty had a ONE deck game last week. It only paid 6 for 5 instead of 2 to 1....

[johnql]

The Majesty had a ONE deck game last week. It only paid 6 for 5 instead of 2 to 1....

You meant 3 to 2, right? (payout for blackjack?)

 

I refuse to play at a table that has imposed that rule change. It increases the house's odds dramatically (1.39% house edge vs. 0.58% on an 8-deck shoe paying the proper 3 to 2 on BJ).

[salty dingo]

On my recent Pearl cruise, I saw signs at all the Blackjack tables "dealer hits on soft 17" - I usually play a lot of Blackjack but I did not like that rule and did not play.

[johnql]

On my recent Pearl cruise, I saw signs at all the Blackjack tables "dealer hits on soft 17" - I usually play a lot of Blackjack but I did not like that rule and did not play.

You're right not to like that rule. It definitely helps the house. Unfortunately, it's becoming increasingly difficult to find bj tables that play by all of the old rules. They're not happy enough with the fact that, over time, they WILL win. They need to increase their margin even further. Nothing like greed.

[raudacruise]

Most of the 1 or 2 deck BJ in Vegas only offer 6-5 BJ. The best deals I've seen have 8 deck shoes with 1-2 deck penatration, early surrender, stand on seventeen and 2-1 BJ. Somewhat favorable even if not counting cards.

 

Forget about it on a ship ;). You are more likely to get free drinks.

[salty dingo]

They're not happy enough with the fact that, over time, they WILL win. They need to increase their margin even further. Nothing like greed.

I could not agree more. It's not enough to make a GUARANTEED profit ... they have to make an even bigger profit. Slime balls, if you ask me.

 

The only way to even the score ... do not play!! That is what I did, and I feel really good about it.

[NoPiratesPlease]

I've always been of the opinion that if casinos don't like card-counting all they need to do is alter the rules just enough to make counting lose it's 52% odds, pushing it down to 49%. Instead they look at counters as cheaters, simply for using their brains and the rules.

 

8 decks, hitting soft 17s, putting the red card 2-3 decks from the end, only one card when splitting aces, no second split on aces, limits on total number of splits, all make it harder to win with counting by cutting down the chances of winning, and the opportunities to win big when the cards are in your favor. And if counting can no longer work, it's back to automatic blackjack playing, which is pretty darn simple--and, over time, you WILL lose. That's the casino's joy in the shuffling machines--counting's impossible. Plus, they can mess with the machines to improve the house odds, but I don't see why they would need to.

 

I may not like it but I think it's a far fairer strategy than just kicking out people for using their brains.

[salty dingo]

The auto-shufflers put an end to the card counting. So, with that out of the way, you'd think the casino would be happy with their house edge - as I said, a guaranteed profit. Over the long run, every player will lose more than they win, because even the most skilled player cannot tilt the odds in their favor.

 

That's fine, if they want to stop card counting, because it's mental work to do that and I'd have enough trouble just remembering the basic strategy. It's not a job where you go to make money, it's entertainment where you are willing to spend money, after all.

 

I just do not see the wisdom of changing the rules of the game. If more people chose to not play, they would get the hint.

[rio123]

Most of the 1 or 2 deck BJ in Vegas only offer 6-5 BJ. The best deals I've seen have 8 deck shoes with 1-2 deck penatration, early surrender, stand on seventeen and 2-1 BJ. Somewhat favorable even if not counting cards.

 

Forget about it on a ship ;). You are more likely to get free drinks.

 

I have never seen a 2-1 blackjack payout and believe me I have played blackjack around the world on both land based and cruise ships. I think you mean 3-2.

[tuffy88]

You want the dealer to hit soft 17. If he stands it increases the house edge by about 20 basis points. The fact that the dealer hits soft 17 is one of the reasons I like the NCL Black Jack games.

 

Charles

[rio123]

You want the dealer to hit soft 17. If he stands it increases the house edge by about 20 basis points. The fact that the dealer hits soft 17 is one of the reasons I like the NCL Black Jack games.

 

Charles

 

You are absolutely correct!

[salty dingo]

You want the dealer to hit soft 17. If he stands it increases the house edge by about 20 basis points. The fact that the dealer hits soft 17 is one of the reasons I like the NCL Black Jack games.

 

Charles

No, you have it backwards. You lose 20 basis points when the dealer can hit a soft 17.

 

Here is an article that explains why in great detail.

[VoyageVirgin]

This thread is even better than the $5. card you have to purchase to have the game explained to you.

 

Now, does anyone know how to play roulette? Seriously, I've always wanted to try it but get too confused with all those places to put your bet. Obviously I don't get to a casino very often. ;)

[raudacruise]

I have never seen a 2-1 blackjack payout and believe me I have played blackjack around the world on both land based and cruise ships. I think you mean 3-2.

 

Doh. See what I mean about the free drinks ;).

[tuffy88]

Salty,

Thanks for the link. I read the article but still say hitting soft 17 is best for the player. Fred Renzy says in the article that standing on soft 17 costs the player $3.00 an hour. For the weekly $15.00 player playing 3 hours a session $400 to $500 a year. Renzy also says in his book "Blackjack Bluebook" that hitting soft 17 is favorable to the player.

 

Charles

[johnql]

The dealer hitting a soft 17 is definitely bad for the player. Without going into the numbers, how do we know this? Because the trend over the past 10-20 years is that casinos that used to stand on soft 17 are now changing the rule to hitting the soft 17. The casinos would NEVER change a rule that improves the player's odds.

[raudacruise]

The auto-shufflers put an end to the card counting. So, with that out of the way, ...

 

Not sure what you mean by that. Yes, some casinos are using an autoshuffler for each hand but most still use a shoe. It really depends on how deep the penetration is in the shoe (i.e. when they they do the reshuffle, automated or not). In a 6 deck if the penetration is only one deck you can gain a (slight) advantage if the count is true with two decks remaining. But if they reshuffle with more decks you are probably out of luck (sorry for the pun).

 

The only play that I saw with one-deck penetration didn't have early surrender so you have to lose more until the shoe gets hot. Probably a wash.

 

I have to ask myself, what the heck does this have to do with cruising on NCL ;).

[salty dingo]

Not sure what you mean by that. Yes, some casinos are using an autoshuffler for each hand but most still use a shoe.

Casinos in Vegas, yes, but on ships, the auto-shuffler is predominant. On very busy nights, like the first night, there may be shoe games, possibly because there are not enough shufflers to go around.

 

But shoe games are very hard to come by, at least on the last few cruises.

 

Besides eliminating the card counters, the auto-shuffler makes for more hands per hour per dealer, since no time is needed for manual shuffling. This means more money for the casino.

 

I never got proficient at card counting, but I was generally "aware" of how many 10 value cards versus other cards were showing up, and could sometimes predict outcomes pretty well at the end of the shoe. That sort of fun is long gone with the auto-shuffler.

[johnql]

We need to draw a distinction between automatic shufflers and continuous shuffling machines (CSMs). Automatic shufflers are simply machines that shuffle 6-8 decks, which the dealer then places in a shoe. Automatic shufflers just cut the time needed between shoes by eliminating the manual shuffle that dealers used to go through. CSMs do much more than just eliminating the waiting time for a shuffle. Many casinos are now using CSMs, which completely eliminate the possibility of card counting. Check out this link for more details about continuous shuffling machines:

 

http://casinogambling.about.com/od/blackjack/a/shuffler.htm

 

On my last few NCL cruises, I have noticed that the lower limit BJ tables ($5 minimum) use CSMs whereas the higher limit tables do not.

[salty dingo]

We need to draw a distinction between automatic shufflers and continuous shuffling machines (CSMs). Automatic shufflers are simply machines that shuffle 6-8 decks, which the dealer then places in a shoe.

Excellent point! When I said "Auto-Shuffler" I was referring to the continuous shuffling machine. I have actually not seen a machine used to shuffle as part of a shoe game, on NCL.

 

You may be right about the shoes on the higher-limit games, but most of the tables I saw had a $5 limit. I guess when it gets really busy they may have higher limits.

[NoPiratesPlease]

Renzy makes his point on a 6 deck game, not an 8 deck. I suspect the odds for house improve with 8 decks. The CSMs use 6 decks.

 

On the Jade, two weeks ago, the 5 dollar tables used CSMs. There were 2 $10 tables that used shoes and hand-shuffling, but they were 8 decks and the "penetration" or, as I think of it, the slug behind the red card was always 2 decks or more thick.

 

With 6 decks and a one-deck slug, you can rack up big wins counting, but I don't see how you can do it with 8 and a 2 deck slug.

 

Still, even if you are only breaking even, or even losing only $20 an hour, counting makes Black Jack FAR more interesting and fun--you are forced to concentrate and make snap decisions. If you mess up, it's expensive, but if you don't and the odds aren't killing you, it's a really good time.

 

Unfortunately, I have yet to find a good training program that runs with 8 decks AND has a method that can win against it. The one I learned was the zero-sum method, and it worked great against 6 decks, but not against 8. In the simulation program I had for it, it could run 8 and I ALWAYS lost in simulation, no matter how perfectly I played.

 

So I get bored with CSM B/J unless I'm keeping up or get ahead. Losing 10 straight hands and I'll get up and walk away.