Reasonable surcharges or nickel & diming?

[grandmato4]

Philip's comments were very specific as to why this group of 300 pax removed their auto tips which is what made the comment so interesting.

 

So the question for Philip is if he has any stats on how many pax on this cruise removed autotip but still paid gratuities in cash? Even if not the full recommended amount. Which of coarse he may not know that specific number if staff did not report those tips but for those that did would still be interesting to hear.

[kornkob]

In my experience, tipped workers often overstate the frequency of being stiffed/undertipped by an order of magnitude. And those are the stories that get repeated--- not the ones where customers overtipped.

 

 

It's the human condition--- the painful is far more visible and felt more than a kind gesture.

[smeyer418]

In my experience, tipped workers often overstate the frequency of being stiffed/undertipped by an order of magnitude. And those are the stories that get repeated--- not the ones where customers overtipped.

 

 

It's the human condition--- the painful is far more visible and felt more than a kind gesture.

I have worked in the service industry where stiffing is generally UNDER reported. The only place its over reported is to the IRS....employees don't like to tell others they have been stiffed- they view it as a reflection on the service they have given.

[kornkob]

I have worked in the service industry where stiffing is generally UNDER reported. The only place its over reported is to the IRS....employees don't like to tell others they have been stiffed- they view it as a reflection on the service they have given.

 

 

My experience is exactly the opposite--- service workers I have worked with and have had worked for me blame the customer for the stiffing, not themselves.

 

In fact, when it came up in this thread that is exactly what's happened--above there is no indication that the manager who brought up the 300 people who took the autotip off in any way thinks it is a reflection of the level of service given, it is that the customers could not afford it.

 

And by 'reporting' I mean 'talk about'. Yeah-- IRS reporting is not a good way to measure actual tipping in most cases. ALL tipping is under reported to the IRS (Unless you ask management--- they are obligated to tell yo that everything is perfectly reported every single time).

[kitty9]

IMO - if you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to cruise. I suspect other cruiselines are having the same experience, and wonder if that won't lead to forced gratuities?

 

 

I guess there are increasing numbers of passengers who are skipping the tips so they are now instituting policies for tipping without your input.

 

BTW, does anyone know, on those lines who automatically add tips to your account, do they allow you to remove them? I thought you didn't have a choice on NCL, and they didn't allow you to remove the auto tip.

[kornkob]

Personally I find 'tips' that are not optional pretty irritating.

 

It is either a service fee, and thereby required and not service level dependent, or a tip, which is not required and is service level dependent.

 

Calling a service fee a tip is flatly deceptive, in my opinion.

 

The point of a 'tip' is that it can be withheld for substandard performance.

[cruisinsmoothly]

Although I agree that stiffing the very deserving workers is wrong, I wonder how many of the people who had large on board bills at the end, removed the auto tips because they "couldn't afford them"? At least the 300 were consistent in that they didn't buy drinks, photos, trinkets and then claim to be broke. I do agree that the tips should be considered a cost of the cruise before booking. I have never felt that the $10-11/day was undeserved and usually step up with a bit more to reward the services that I have received.

[iheartbda]

BTW, does anyone know, on those lines who automatically add tips to your account, do they allow you to remove them? I thought you didn't have a choice on NCL, and they didn't allow you to remove the auto tip.

 

It's not just a matter of going to the purser's desk and asking them to be removed. There is a process to the whole thing and you must have an issue not just that you don't like tipping that way.

 

NCL would like any reason for removing them, concerns about service during the cruise, etc. be brought up immediately so they have a chance to address and correct any issues before the cruise is over.

 

They also say that in the unlikely event they are not able to resolve the issue with the pax, the pax will then be able to adjust the charge according to the level of inconvenience they have encountered.

[smeyer418]

Personally I find 'tips' that are not optional pretty irritating.

 

It is either a service fee, and thereby required and not service level dependent, or a tip, which is not required and is service level dependent.

 

Calling a service fee a tip is flatly deceptive, in my opinion.

 

The point of a 'tip' is that it can be withheld for substandard performance.

NCL where its not a option(technically) calls it a service charge and refers to it in the brochures/ads as on ship service fee that will be added....its not a tip and I agree that should call it correctly....

 

The way its supposed to work on NCL is that if you have a complaint you must bring it first to the front desk and they must try to fix it before you can adjust your service charge. In reality because so few really die hard cheapos try this in most cruises where only a few try to adjust it they will ask why and allow it. If many more try they do infact in force the rules. Since there is no NCL ship in Asia right now it wasn't an NCL ship where they tried to adjust it although it might have been a star lines ship....

[LoisGriffin1]

NCL where its not a option(technically) calls it a service charge and refers to it in the brochures/ads as on ship service fee that will be added....its not a tip and I agree that should call it correctly....

 

This is another reason I went for NCL for my first cruise. The American tipping system gets a little confusing for the outsider. I don't like it but I tip the recommended percentage (or above for good service) because I would never want to punish the people who work so hard. Plus when a person visits a foreign country its important to respect their customs.

 

I know the basics like housekeeping, restaurants, cabs etc but there is so much to remember because its not done in my culture I am always worried about missing someone out.

 

Having it automatically means I can just relax and tip extra if I receive excellent service.

[smeyer418]

This is another reason I went for NCL for my first cruise. The American tipping system gets a little confusing for the outsider. I don't like it but I tip the recommended percentage (or above for good service) because I would never want to punish the people who work so hard. Plus when a person visits a foreign country its important to respect their customs.

 

I know the basics like housekeeping, restaurants, cabs etc but there is so much to remember because its not done in my culture I am always worried about missing someone out.

 

Having it automatically means I can just relax and tip extra if I receive excellent service.

I feel the exact same way. I never know whether I am tipping too much or too little and I never feel comfortable about it. When its included I feel that even if I leave $10 extra I have done what I need to. I remember when we were in the DR at an all inclusive, we tipped the housekeeper 50 for the week we she was so happy, I couple we had met from Canada was going to leave $20 US in total for the whole same week they asked us and we told them what we did and they increased it.....but I would have been just as happy if it was added as an autotip...

 

ps it appears NCL will allow adjusting again....

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=902753

[kornkob]

Don't get me wrong--- I'd like to see tipping as a significant part of wages go away in the US. It's a way to keep real wages artificially low and the system is REALLY designed for the benefit of the business, not the employee.

 

 

I'd much rather see prices go up and the workers get compensated, with tipping a thing of the past.

 

That being a pipe dream at best (business would fight that tooth and nail, never mind the societial pressure) I'm opposed to tips that are forced. Call it a service charge if it is required.

[sayaguru]

It's not just a matter of going to the purser's desk and asking them to be removed. There is a process to the whole thing and you must have an issue not just that you don't like tipping that way.

 

Depends on the cruiseline.

 

Princess have auto tipping. People were lined up before the cruise left getting it taken off (Alaska). They just signed a form. One person told me they were taken into a room and explained the tipping system.

P&O just sign the form.

 

RCI. We got a form on the 2nd day to fill in if you wanted the tips put on your account. Friends of mine cruised with us and (before this) went to the desk to ask about tipping procedures. They were told tips were not compulsory and they could put it on their account if they wished. Another letter was sent later in the cruise if you hadn't filled it it "I notice you haven't put auto tips on- it's not too late etc". I think RCI are the most laid back about the whole thing. At least with it being put on you have to make a conscious effort to take it off. Lazy procrastinating people may just not get around to filling in the form on RCI. My friend's didn't even read it. Which is why they got the second one. The voucher system is good though. Everyone (in theory) should hand over an envelope (be it cash or voucher).

There were quite a few people missing on the last night. I think that's rude.

 

I would love to know the percentage of people who do pay the recommended tips.

[chrisbd1]

On our 9 day Southern Caribbean cruise, I overheard a woman take both her and her husbands service charge off because she "couldn't afford it". Another guy reduced his and his wifes service charge to $100 total (for 9 days!) because they only ate in the buffett. I have started hanging around the Pursers desk on the next to the last day, just the eavesdrop. Yes, I know it's a bit rude but it is interesting to observe. As long as I don't call someone a "cheap b*stard", I should be OK :rolleyes:.

[GailnBrad]

I am becoming turned off by cruising. I'm tired of the nickle and diming. If you have cruised the past 20 years you can certainly see the difference. I enjoyed getting on the ship and not wooring about paying extra for this or that. I feel food quality has gone way down hill,food presentation, amount of food, amount of restaurants on board, service has gone downhill...esp. since tips are automatically included which I feel is a terrible idea...all in all cruising has deteriorated...granted...I'm talking Carnival. RC,Norwegian...perhaps I need to move up to 'better' cruses...I may need to switch to land all inclusive locals...

[smeyer418]

I am becoming turned off by cruising. I'm tired of the nickle and diming. If you have cruised the past 20 years you can certainly see the difference. I enjoyed getting on the ship and not wooring about paying extra for this or that. I feel food quality has gone way down hill,food presentation, amount of food, amount of restaurants on board, service has gone downhill...esp. since tips are automatically included which I feel is a terrible idea...all in all cruising has deteriorated...granted...I'm talking Carnival. RC,Norwegian...perhaps I need to move up to 'better' cruses...I may need to switch to land all inclusive locals...

20 years ago you paid twice as much in uninflated dollars for the same cruise. I wonder why you and those who did so don't take that into account. Also the service I get at most places wasn't what it was 20 years ago....

 

last month i found a service station that actually both washed my windshield and looked at my oil level and they were the cheapest gas in 5 counties....I thought I was in the twilight zone...

 

20 years ago I think it was 75 cents a gallon....

[beachchick]

I manage a large mass market cruise ship.

Last week we had over 300 passengers who spent absolutely nothing onboard. Zero.

It was not the case that someone else covered their onboard charges. They had no onboard charges. They also removed the auto-tips, claiming that they could not afford to tip.

 

None of these people could have afforded to take this cruise if we did not have the "Pay as you go" (otherwise known as nickel and diming) system in place.

 

I don't mind being a charity provider for holiday cruises. But I really miss the good old days when we charged everybody upfront for nearly everything - whether you wanted it or not.

 

We really don't miss that and don't consider them the "good old days" (and I guess I'm glad you're not in charge of such things). I don't care to be forced to pay for extras/everything whether I want it or not. You'd have us all pay for stuff we neither want nor need? What exactly would you like to force us to pay for? Thanks for caring so much about your customers preferences.:rolleyes:

 

That attitude annoys me as much as the attitude of people who remove their tips/auto-tips/service fee because they "can't afford it." They don't want to pay for service; you want to charge us for things we don't want or won't use.

 

beachchick

[footzz]

Times are changing and the cruise industry is constantly evolving. Back in the old days every portion of a typical family vacation; transportation, hotels, meals and entertainment were all priced and paid for separately, cruising was considered “all-inclusive”. Then resorts like Sandals redefined the term all-inclusive where lodging, food, activities, alcohol and gratuities are all included. So, by today’s definition, very few cruises are really “all inclusive.”

Cruising has changed a great deal in the last few years. It’s not that you get less included with your cruise these days, you still get everything on today's cruise that was included ten years ago but there are some differences. One difference is that there are many more options available on every cruise, and some of them are going to carry an additional cost. Another difference (and this is a real shame) are the fees being added to curtail the dissolute behavior of some passengers.

Very few of the charges on a cruise are mandatory, with perhaps the exception of gratuities. On most contemporary cruise lines tipping is optional, but expected. However, on some cruise lines it’s no longer an option and they are “service fees”, not gratuities. If this is important to you, you should double-check the cruise lines policy before you book.

Everyone's style is different. You can always drink iced tea with every meal and walk around in every port on your own. In the end, the amount you choose to spend during your cruise is entirely up to you.

[Philip217]

We really don't miss that and don't consider them the "good old days" (and I guess I'm glad you're not in charge of such things). I don't care to be forced to pay for extras/everything whether I want it or not. You'd have us all pay for stuff we neither want nor need? What exactly would you like to force us to pay for? Thanks for caring so much about your customers preferences.:rolleyes:

 

That attitude annoys me as much as the attitude of people who remove their tips/auto-tips/service fee because they "can't afford it." They don't want to pay for service; you want to charge us for things we don't want or won't use.

 

beachchick

 

beachchick,

 

I have some great advice - but it's not for you. It's for me.

I must learn to work on the sublety of my sarcasm.

Everyone seems to have missed it.

 

Those "good old days" certainly were good. But they are gone forever.

Mr. and Mrs Howell are long gone.

We have Gilligan and the Skipper taking cruises today.

Unlimited Caviar, Champagne, and Evening Gowns have been replaced by Diet Coke, Hot Dogs, and some rather hideous Tattoos.

 

Considering the currrent market, pay as you go is a great concept.

The people who call it nickel and diming are the ones who could never afford the good old days of cruising. Now that the cost of cruising is about one tenth of what it used to be, we suddenly see people who expect the 5 star cruise for the 1 star price.

[Canadianhey!]

I manage a large mass market cruise ship.

Last week we had over 300 passengers who spent absolutely nothing onboard. Zero.

It was not the case that someone else covered their onboard charges. They had no onboard charges. They also removed the auto-tips, claiming that they could not afford to tip.

 

None of these people could have afforded to take this cruise if we did not have the "Pay as you go" (otherwise known as nickel and diming) system in place.

 

I don't mind being a charity provider for holiday cruises. But I really miss the good old days when we charged everybody upfront for nearly everything - whether you wanted it or not.

 

Where is the law that if you take a cruise you must buy stuff on board? Are you sure that all 300 people said they couldn't afford to tip or did some decide to give cash tips instead. If I was not a jewerlly fan (and a big fan at that) my on board account would be next to till too. As numerous people have stated increase the price of tickets to cover the tips and make a lot of people happy.

[smeyer418]

Where is the law that if you take a cruise you must buy stuff on board? Are you sure that all 300 people said they couldn't afford to tip or did some decide to give cash tips instead. If I was not a jewerlly fan (and a big fan at that) my on board account would be next to till too. As numerous people have stated increase the price of tickets to cover the tips and make a lot of people happy.

I said this a while back It sounds to me that it was a particular group that removed it that way and made it known it wasn't tipping. Philip and I have been known to disagree(he and I are still disagreeing about whether the port charges and other fees in NY makes NY an expensive port as an example) but I would think he knows that this group wasn't leaving cash tips and I suspect the crew reported back being stiffed...

 

 

also be care what you wish for because if they added to the fare it will cost you extra.....see #20 above

[iheartbda]

 

also be care what you wish for because if they added to the fare it will cost you extra.....see #20 above

People never think things through or don't understand the ramifications of their quick fix, which you tried to explain in #20.

 

If people would just factor in tips as part of the cruise price they should be able to determine if they can afford the final cost or not...pretty simple.

[Murrumba]

We really don't miss that and don't consider them the "good old days" (and I guess I'm glad you're not in charge of such things). I don't care to be forced to pay for extras/everything whether I want it or not. You'd have us all pay for stuff we neither want nor need? What exactly would you like to force us to pay for? Thanks for caring so much about your customers preferences.:rolleyes:

 

That attitude annoys me as much as the attitude of people who remove their tips/auto-tips/service fee because they "can't afford it." They don't want to pay for service; you want to charge us for things we don't want or won't use.

 

beachchick

 

Well said - nobody could have said this better!!! I like paying for cheaper cruising than I did 20 years ago. I don't mind bringing my own shampoo and conditioner (I need special stuff anyhow my hair is so dyed!:p), I don't really care if I don't get a chocolate (I certainly don't get one at home or at the hotels that I choose to stay in!) I always pay above the recommended gratuities, because the service is way above what I feel I have paid for in my cruise costs, I am really agitated by people who take advantage of others and do not pay tips, knowing that this is a condition of service for good services. But I do not want to pay for things that I do not use or need. I say well done to "some" cruise companies for keeping costs a little reasonable for the mass audiences so that we can enjoy the world too and being a little spoilt. = Judy:o

[Philip217]

Well said - nobody could have said this better!!! I like paying for cheaper cruising than I did 20 years ago. I don't mind bringing my own shampoo and conditioner (I need special stuff anyhow my hair is so dyed!:p), I don't really care if I don't get a chocolate (I certainly don't get one at home or at the hotels that I choose to stay in!) I always pay above the recommended gratuities, because the service is way above what I feel I have paid for in my cruise costs, I am really agitated by people who take advantage of others and do not pay tips, knowing that this is a condition of service for good services. But I do not want to pay for things that I do not use or need. I say well done to "some" cruise companies for keeping costs a little reasonable for the mass audiences so that we can enjoy the world too and being a little spoilt. = Judy:o

 

Murrumba,

 

If only more cruisers could understand it like you do, they would all have a far better time - and my job would be far easier.

[linda_22003]

I would not be happy to pay extra to subsidise the usage of others of facilities/services I do not need or require. I think including things in the cost often creates an air of entitlement, greed and waste.

 

We have only cruised on an all-inclusive line, and I disagree. Regent includes all alcohol, and you do not see people falling down drunk on Regent ships. There are no additional dining room charges depending on venue, and people don't cram food into themselves 24/7. Tipping and other charges are included, so you don't even have to think about them. I don't see people taking advantage; I think it is a quality within people, not the charge or lack of one, that makes people abuse or not abuse what is available.