twotravellersLondon

If you have a spare couple of hours, the Garden Public is a very lovely spot and only about 600m or so from where the ship is likely to dock. It has lawns, lakes, waterfowl and some interesting gardens (probably a bit parched this year). There are one or two shady streets that lead there from the quay. If you make for the nearby Place Tourny in Downtown, there's a signpost to the Park 200m away.

Well... I feel like I'm waiting for Godot. Forecast is for thunderstorms, the rain-radar show us under a torrential deluge, the papers are full of apocalyptic rain, but all we've had is two minutes of light drizzel and it's too grey & damp to sit in the garden. I'm now just about to resort to a well known internet sales site to try and find a reliable bit if dried seaweed for an accurate forecast.

This is a bit of an aside really but... we're not sure that we were on the same cruise... we didn't identify it in our original post. From what you describe, your experience seems to be totally different from ours. We're ardent whale, dolphin and bird watchers and were out and about around the upper decks for about three to five hours most sea days. We certainly didn't see any noticeable soot: the aft decks looked very clean to us and there's no evidence on the decks, equipment, like umbrellas, or the ship structure in the photos that we took over the course of several weeks. Neither was there any sign of soot on our footwear, our jackets or the bulky camera equipment that we cleaned down at the end of each day to remove any traces of sea-salt. That's not to say that the was never a hint of a smut in the weeks that we were on board but, there was nothing significant that we noticed. However we do sympathise with your experience and hope that you enjoyed your cruise overall. On our cruise most people seemed to be enjoying the aft decks in good weather, the terrace restaurant was always fullish on bright days, the loungers were well used and lots of people used the Lido... just below the funnel. So that's a very good excuse for a few more nice pics showing some of the joys of cruising!

There are very few Cruise Critic reviews posted for any cruise line compared with that line's capacity/loading. For instance, on this site 17 SAGA review in the last 6 months when SAGA's recent financial report indicates that over 20,000 have people have been carried is an insignificant sample of about 0.0009%. That not unusual... a comparable figure for P&O is less... about 0.0006% and for FOCLs it is even less... about 0.0002%. But it could show (no statistician would accept it though) that SAGA is better represented than other lines... the original question might then be "why so many "SAGA cruisers" post and one might wonder if "SAGA cruisers" like to use the internet more than cruisers on other lines. But this sort-of assumes that life is simple and there's an identifiable, stereotypical group of "Saga Cruisers." But in reality, it's difficult to pigeonhole reviewers to one line or another because many people use a range of different cruise lines... and 99.999% of cruisers don't post online reviews anyway. Those that do, often post vastly different reviews of the same experience on exactly the same cruise. For instance, our last cruise and our next cruise will be on SAGA. Should we be pigeonholed as SAGA cruisers? If so, what about the 30 cruises that we done with FOCLs... are we FOCL's cruisers? Or as we've used several P&O ships, should we be thought of as P&O cruisers? Should we then ignore CMV, Princess, Oceanwide, Poseidon, Cunard and what about the other lines that we've used as well? If the question is "Where is everybody?" and to wonder why there are so few posts about different cruise-lines, the question on SAGA is based on a rather dodgy premise and this is probably not the best place to start.

There is a major difference between "not like or use the internet" and one rep who "did not deny the website problems." SAGA's demographic in age, education and background are very well able (and indeed more able than some other demographic groups) to be able to hold constructive, effective conversations in exactly the same way as they do and have done for years in their professional and social lives. Far more can, in the right circumstances, be achieved in a short friendly call than over the internet. We're always really delighted to have fascinating conversation on SAGA with bright. confident, knowledge people who really do enhance our cruises... not only by their sociability but also by their humour, insight and their ability to share relevant understanding in an friendly accessible manner which often increases our enjoyment of the areas that we're cruising in. On a recent cruise, in the last month, we were delighted to be adjacent to a retired Royal Naval officer who was immensely knowledgeable and was really up on the very latest marine technology and digital control systems. A husband-and-wife team, both university research biologists, helped us to identify rare orchids and to understand better the very specific micro-climate that allow them to flourish in small patches. Others we met were a geologist. a glacial geomorphologist, a metallurgist and a meteorologist and a marine biologist all of whom were delightful to chat to over drinks and meals and who generously shared their ideas and insights. From their conservations, many of the people that we met had a high level of technological and scientific skills that were central to their career, business and to their outside interests... or had been before they retired. It may well be the case, that many SAGA cruisers chose personal contact rather that apps and internet. That's not because they can't use the internet. It's because they understand the limitations of many of these things and have the confidence and the ability to adopt a far more effective and efficient personal approach. Like many of our friends and associates, we do not tweet, twitter, Instagram, tic-toc or "follow"... that's not because we can't... it's because our "friends" are real people that we know, meet, join for meals, have enjoyable evenings with and support (as they support us) if and when the need arises. As an aside... Our recent cruise was on the Spirit of Discovery. One chap also told us these horror stories that the aft decks were "filthy" with soot deposits (he may have read the same reviews)... so we went to look... "spot the smut. This is what we saw... Not a smut in sight... so we had a loverly lunch on the Terrace!

Last night the forecast for today was thunderstorms all morning. But no rain in sight... just blue skies a balmy 21˚C and 26˚C is now forecast. Airing the house to get a through-draft, breakfast on the patio and a rain dance on what used to be the lawn to try and save a laburnum tree. Neighbour's "lawn" so brown that our local vixen thinks that she blends into it!

It's 30˚C here. Forecast is for 32˚C. Due to be our hottest night yet... 24˚C at midnight and not much lower than 20˚C overnight. Normally we would have to pay a small fortune to fly to the Mediterranean or the Caribbean for the privilege!

We are Saga cruisers, we do know the ropes, and we are internet savvy... our generation invented it. I was fluent in Pascal, Basic & Fortran my wife was at the cutting edge of the digital revolution in the offshore oil and gas exploration industry and in nuclear power stations. So as an ex-entrant in the World Who's Who of Computing etc, etc, etc... the idea that SAGA's demographic may not like the internet...is not easy to support with evidence. We came off a SAGA ship just a couple of weeks ago. It was interesting to meet ex Fred Olsen Cruisers, ex P&O cruisers, first-time cruisers and may who has travelled on other lines. So the idea that, "most SAGA cruisers are "regulars" doesn't seem to fit either. May I simply suggest that the number of people who comment on any cruise line is really tiny compared with the number of people carried by that line. Some lines do have an interesting and sometime witty small group of regulars who use these pages as a safe, pleasant very well-managed social-medial site... so some lines are better represented but try counting the number of unique individuals against the capacity of the line... it won't be 1% and its very unlikely to be even 0.1% or 0.01%. And to be totally honest... other people have other things that they prefer to do.

Many thanks David. We suppose that the real problem for FOCLs is the resistance of its current client base to paying more and the problems of attracting new clients to higher priced cabins where there is fierce competition from other cruise lines who are offering bright, modern attractive ships. There are two elements to consider; the viability of FOCL's older, less environmental friendly and less efficient ships on the one hand and the acceptability of the hotel offer onboard these ships to the target demographic of new cruisers who might consider using FOCLs for the first time. When we were on the Boudicca's last cruise, we were upgraded to a suite on the top accommodation deck. We soon discovered that only three of the nineteen suites on deck nine were occupied: one by a contractor and the other two by upgrades. Perhaps that was a sign of the times even then. We think that FOCLs need to have a really radical rethink about what it's doing and how it's positioned in the current market. Long, long ago when we started cruising with Fred Olsen on the Black Prince, the commonly held belief was that Fred Sen. was quite happy to run at a loss of a couple of million a year because that was a small price to pay for the great benefits that his cruises brought to places in Norway. Since then Fred Sen's various business ventures in the oil, glass and energy sectors has poured billions into the Norwegian economy and the Olsen family have had a very significant positive impact on the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund. And... in those intervening years, cruising and cruise ships have dramatically changed. We liked Fred Jun's idea of a fleet of two or four 600 pax exploration ships aimed at a boomer rather than a traditionalist market, and exploring ports and coastlines that many ships either couldn't or wouldn't consider. It was all set out and hinted at in a very detailed online questionnaire a two or three years ago. The idea of a personalised port exploration service (what do you want to do and we'll arrange that sort of thing), a quayside concierge at each port and a far fresher and more exciting dining option also appealed. It didn't happen. It may well have been the events of 2020 got in the way, there was uncertainty about how this new venture would sit with the existing business or doubts that the suggested starting price per-person of £300 per day would attract a sufficient market. We've cruised with Fred for almost 30 years and we do very much hope that new leadership will now breathe new life into the cruise line. We're certainly very keen to see what changes, if any, come about.

SAGA's latest 2022 Financial report. The £319 is their average per person per day. Some suites are at least twice the price of a standard cabin and so that raises the average price. We've likewise just returned from a SAGA cruise, also had a higher grade standard cabin and likewise paid less that the £319 average.

We, and many loyalty members that we know, have received exactly the same questionnaire over the last few months. In mid-May a number of higher tier loyalty members were also very well paid to take part in personal interviews by an independent research consultancy on their opinion of the Fred Olsen Cruise Line brand and to offer suggestions about how it might be improved. Some loyalty members on the highest levels have been asked to consider becoming members of focus groups. So very clearly, FOCLs was actively considering its offer and its market position before the resignation, for whatever reason, of Fred. Olsen Junior from the company and the immediate parent company on the 4th of July this year. The average occupancy rate of 73% across the Bolette, Borealis and the Balmoral over the quarter would normally be encouraging but with a net result for the same quarter of a loss of NOK 108,000,000 (£9.3 million) and a net loss for the first six months of 2022 of NOK 412,000,000 (£35.5 million) the picture is far less rosy... especially as the ultimate parent company announced early last year that it anticipated that the cruise sector would be back to pre-covid levels by now. Currently it looks as if FOCLs will carry less passengers this year than the company carried in the year before the cruise pause... Things don't look as good as they were forecast.. The new FOCLs leadership will certainly have a challenge. The easy answer would be to go into the growth sector of "boutique cruising" for the traditionalist market (Fred Jun. had a brilliant idea for specialist exploration ships at one stage and was reported as having had discussions with ship-building yards). But... given the present older, high maintenance and comparably inefficient ships that make up the FOCLs fleet, the expectations of many of the FOCLs' loyalty members who cruise several times a year and the problem that Fred had in past years that when the price point rose, the occupancy rate fell... a move to Boutique cruising for FOCLs could be fraught. A very obvious question is: would many of FOCLs remaining very loyal cruisers who really do believe that the company is "simply the best" and who "wouldn't cruise with anyone else" be happy for the company to change and would they be willing to pay for a more "premium" offer? FOCL's have now an average price of £194 per day per person. When the Fred's price rose from £180 to £193 in 2018, Fred lost over 25,000 passenger days per year. (By comparison, SAGA currently costs £319 per day per person... interestingly SAGA's current occupancy rate is higher.) We certainly have our own ideas about what would attract us book more FOCLs cruises. We've already had one personalise letter suggesting one particular cruise based on our recent booking history and we very much look forward to seeing what the new FOCLs leadership has to offer in the months to come.

We're in the same position and have been booking with SAGA because we don't want to play Russian roulette with prices.

According to documents filed with Companies' House, Fred. Olsen Jun. resigned as a director of Fred Olsen Cruise Lines Ltd and the immediate parent company, Fred Olsen Holdings Ltd, at the beginning of July 2022. The only Olsen left on the FOCL board is Annett Olsen, Fred's elder sister, who is essentially in charge of running that part of the multi-billion Olsen empire that comes under the banner of Bonheur. FOCLs has emerged from the Covid pause with massive debts and has lost millions and millions in the first six months of 2022. If Fred. Jun. has gone as Chairman of FOCLs, it will be interesting to see just if and how things at FOCLs change under new leadership and whether or not the company is able to win back many of the people who once were part of a very loyal client base. My wish would be for FOCLs to offer a far more competitive all-inclusive pricing package for his more expensive cabins and to ensure that anyone booking early was not disadvantages by later offers and price reductions.

Fred is still listing Terrace Cabins under "Balcony Cabins" on the website.

Fred advertises these terrace cabins as "balcony cabins." Cabins that really have balconies are some time referred by Fred as "private balcony" cabins... perhaps that's "the Olsen way." If you remember the rather uneasy veranda cabins that Fred added to the Boudicca... these terrace cabins on the old HAL ships have something of the same awkwardness about them... people who have "paid" for a bit of the prom deck as their "balcony" and others who feel a bit awkward when they can't linger on the rail or sit there. (no public seating only loungers reserved for terrace cabin cruisers)

Not as much as a single cruise!

And that is the really, really important point!

You pays your money and takes your choice as they say. Two seven-night Fjord cruises leaving Southampton on 13th/14th of this Month. P&O at £1,049 per person in a balcony cabin... FOCLs at £2,699 in a comparable balcony cabin. The difference for two people sharing is £3,300. At that price, we can take our own chocolates and still be thousands of pounds better off!

Fred's problem is that he's lost 1,000's of loyal, long-term customers and was doing so even before Covid. The idea of charging those who do board a small fortune will only drive more people away.

Great that you're enjoying the cruise. Were you able to get into Ilulissat... many try and few succeed! (We're among the former). Any wildlife?

It's up to you but SAGA include gratuities as part of the cruise price for everyone who would usually receive them.

Even before Covid, Fred's prices were off-putting because the headline price was later inflated with all manner of extras. We cruised the Corinth Canal with Fred in 2019. It was a nice trip but expensive in a balcony cabin. The additional price of drinks, "gratuities" and Wi-Fi and suchlike then significantly added to the basic cost. The same trip in the same cabin in 2024 would now cost us more than twice as much. By the time we added all manner of other costs... including excursions, in our opinion, the price would be exorbitant. Fred's cruises lost over £25,000,000 in the first three months of this year. It looks as if lots of once loyal FOCLs customers, like ourselves, aren't as attracted to the brand as they once were and that numbers on Fred's cruises are really low. Fred seems to be beginning to get the message. He recently commissioned an independent report into what people thought of his brand. But the problem is... once people are put off... it's really hard to regain their trust and get them back on board again. We used to do four or five cruises with Fred every year. Since Fred was reluctant to refund us promptly when we chose to have our deposit back at the beginning of covid we've not booked another cruise with him. The main reason is that we've been comparing the market. We have to pull up a spreadsheet to calculate the real price of what Fred's advertising. Once we move up to "Freedom" fare, add the Gratuities, the essential Wi-Fi and so on... the price is often eyewatering compared with brighter, newer, better ships being run by Fred's competitors. We had originally been attracted to a similar Fred cruise to your one... but ten we worked out that in a balcony cabin it would cost us about £1,000 a day. By comparison with three other cruise lines... all visiting the same areas at about the same time... Fred was by far the most expensive. We opted for a different line that we'd used before. We believe that the food, entertainment, service and accommodation is better for us than what Fred's offering. That's just our personal opinion... we've taken our choice and paid our money... and we feel much better about the choice having done our own research and worked out the real prices.

Would be interested to know where your ideas come from. According to the authoritative World Bank database, the UK has a much better doctor/patient ratio than most European countries... better in fact than Portugal, Austria, Norway, Finland, Switzerland, Sweden, Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, Ireland and Luxembourg... to name but a few. On the global scale, the UK also has a better doctor/patient ratio than the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Canada and many other countries.

Let's hope that we can all look forward to cruising with no worries as soon as possible!

The "dreaded Bay of Biscay" was far, far worse in the days of small stay ships with no stabilisers intrepidly making their way from one coaling station to another and through the Suez Canal to all points in the Orient and Pacific in the distant days of Empire. The only time that we were a bit on the green side was over 20 years ago in the mid-Atlantic on the Black Prince in the owner's suite just behind the wheelhouse... no wonder every item of furniture in the cabin was bolted down.... a plate of canapés levitating was a sight to behold! The ship was "stabilised" but not effectively! On that occasion my wife had an injection and was as right as rain in an hour or two. We've since completed over 40 cruises, experienced a Gale Force Nine in the Bay of Biscay and a Force Ten in the Irish Sea and Hurricane Force winds off the coast of Norway in the midst of winter without any unduly unpleasant effects. We've never experienced any problems on the SAGA fleet... past or present... but that may be a personal thing. The usual advice is... what you have already been given... but a moderate consumption of alcohol and food, remaining hydrated, lots of fresh air, staying warm and keeping busy and occupied really seems to help many people.