Greek Economy could affect travel plans

[MANURULES]

That's just ignorant reporting.
For every Yiannis , there are thousands upon thousands of people making a fraction of his pension.
Reports like this just show the level of ignorance perpetrated on the international audience.
Most Americans would not last a single work shift in Greece,and if they do they would take the first anything out of the country at the end of the week,when they see their paycheck.
If they see a paycheck that is.
How about showing the 40 year old dads living the last few years without getting payed for months,depending on their 60+ year old parents for putting dinner on the table for them and their kids.
Rubbish ,just rubbish.

[vjmatty]

Pools and Porsches? Hardly. Anyone who has been to Greece knows it's more like public beaches and Fiats.

Instead of comparing retirements, let's look at consumerism and material wealth. The average US family has two cars, Greeks are lucky if they have one. Houses in the US tend to be twice as large as Greek homes, having multiple bathrooms and air conditioning unlike Greek homes where such amenities are less common.

As an American I am really getting tired of fear mongering....we don't need a new source of national paranoia. As a Greek I am surprised with the misrepresentations of the news piece... finger pointing from a country that is billions of dollars in debt to China.

[MANURULES]

[quote name='vjmatty']Pools and Porsches? Hardly. Anyone who has been to Greece knows it's more like public beaches and Fiats.

Instead of comparing retirements, .[/quote]


Well in this case the comparison was at best irresponsible to be polite.
The reporter is comparing a social security recipient in the US that was obviously a minimum wage earner, with a bank executive of some kind at a goverment bank ,that retired after 30 years of service in the public sector.
It does make for a good tv story though.

[vjmatty]

[quote name='MANURULES']Well in this case the comparison was at best irresponsible to be polite.
The reporter is comparing a social security recipient in the US that was obviously a minimum wage earner, with a bank executive of some kind at a goverment bank ,that retired after 30 years of service in the public sector.
It does make for a good tv story though.[/QUOTE]

Good point.... kind of like comparing a judge or district attorney's retirement over here with a bus driver over there.

[celebritydave]

[quote name='MANURULES']Well in this case the comparison was at best irresponsible to be polite.
The reporter is comparing a social security recipient in the US that was obviously a minimum wage earner, with a bank executive of some kind at a goverment bank ,that retired after 30 years of service in the public sector.
It does make for a good tv story though.[/quote]

This report was slanted to make the Greeks look bad. Sure, they have lived above their means for a while, but then so have we. Our government came close to a meltdown not too long ago, so who are we to point fingers at someone else?

Once we get our house in order (if that ever happens) then we can produce more reports like this one.

[TLCOhio]

[COLOR="Blue"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Georgia"] As of this morning from Greece and Europe, things have gotten even more complex and confusing. Italy seems next in line to have bitter government splits and uncertainty. Within the past five minutes, this NY Times story probably best summarizes the "mess" that is there.

They have this headline: [B][I]"Splits Deepen in Greece Over Referendum on Euro Debt Deal"[/I][/B] with these highlights: [I]"Hours after Prime Minister George A. Papandreou of Greece emerged from a meeting with Europe’s leaders here, pledging to hold a referendum on a new European debt deal, key ministers in his government rebelled against the idea on Thursday, deepening rifts within his government on the eve of a no-confidence vote in Parliament that could lead to its collapse. The turmoil threatened to eclipse what had been billed as a glittery summit of the G-20 nations, including the United States, in this French Riviera city more usually known for its star-studded annual film festival. But the drama has centered on Greece and the euro debt crisis, just a week after European leaders reached agreement on a broad bailout that Mr. Papandreou has now said he will put to a popular ballot. Faced with a growing insurrection among his own ministers, Mr. Papandreou called an emergency cabinet meeting at noon on Thursday. With the government in danger of crumbling, news reports spoke of defections among lawmakers, threatening the Greek leader’s razor-thin, two-vote majority in Parliament in advance of Friday’s vote."[/I]

From other news reports this am, it is unclear whether there will be a vote by the Greek people and on which of several questions. There might be a snap election to select new leadership. For the short-term, it does not appear that there will be any strikes as things are too fluid and unclear.

Reuters has this headline in the past few minutes:[I][B] "Euro zone mulls Greek exit, Papandreou on brink"[/B][/I]. The story lead is: [I]"Greece's government was on the brink of collapse on Thursday, casting doubt on plans to hold a referendum on staying in the euro zone, as European leaders contemplated a Greek exit to preserve their single currency."[/I]

Full stories at:
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/world/europe/greek-leaders-split-on-euro-referendum.html?_r=1&hp[/url]
[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/03/us-g-idUSTRE7A20E920111103[/url]

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

Recently back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from [B]Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik[/B]. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now at 47,429 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:
[B][url]www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474[/url][/B]

[Anapli]

Just one phrase for understand about Greece and Greeks:

[B] rich people, poor nation[/B]

[nick_arch]

I have to disagree wholeheartedly.

I see no rich people around me and i live in a "good" area of the city.

Greece has many rich people that live abroad and do business here or live here and evade tax payments.

Majority of people used to be middle class, pay their taxes and now are low class with no money to pay taxes or anything.

Making 20k here ( $26k ) you are considered rich. Even on such a low brakcet, you 'll not find many people that make that money now.

[vjmatty]

[quote name='nick_arch']I have to disagree wholeheartedly.

I see no rich people around me and i live in a "good" area of the city.

Greece has many rich people that live abroad and do business here or live here and evade tax payments.

Majority of people used to be middle class, pay their taxes and now are low class with no money to pay taxes or anything.

Making 20k here ( $26k ) you are considered rich. Even on such a low brakcet, you 'll not find many people that make that money now.[/QUOTE]

I think some might be confused by the visiting yachts in some of the island harbors.... I know when I'd spend summers in Kardamyla Chios there would always be a few, but they were either people from other countries or one of the few Greek millionaires who were the exception, not the rule.

Maybe the world thinks all Greeks are like Ari Onassis, which would be like assuming all Americans are Donald Trump :rolleyes:

[nick_arch]

Kardamyla rulez :)
This place and Oinousses island at the other side of the Straits is where those owning 25% of the globe's commercial fleet are coming from.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Merchant_Navy"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Merchant_Navy[/URL]

I still can't believe Greece has the biggest merchant fleet in the world and Greeks living IN Greece have to live on what's considered peanuts in the States. . . :eek:

[vjmatty]

[quote name='nick_arch']Kardamyla rulez :)
This place and Oinousses island at the other side of the Straits is where those owning 25% of the globe's commercial fleet are coming from.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Merchant_Navy"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Merchant_Navy[/URL]

I still can't believe Greece has the biggest merchant fleet in the world and Greeks living IN Greece have to live on what's considered peanuts in the States. . . :eek:[/QUOTE]

Really? I remember in the 1980's Greece having the fourth largest..... I didn't know they were up to first!

This past spring I was in Lisbon and the tour guide told us that one reason Portugal has suffered from being in the ECC is because of the restrictions on commercial fishing.....I wonder if Greece is dealing with similar restrictions, not just fishing but other maritime industries as well.

My father once told me a Kardamyla joke..... It had to do with people from Kardamyla thinking everyone who is not from the xorio, including people from elsewhere on the island of Chios, are "ksenous". I wish I could remember it. Though I do remember that "Chiotes paneh thio thio" (Chiotans travel two by two). ;)

[4774Papa]

[quote name='vjmatty']Pools and Porsches? Hardly. Anyone who has been to Greece knows it's more like public beaches and Fiats.

Instead of comparing retirements, let's look at consumerism and material wealth. The average US family has two cars, Greeks are lucky if they have one. Houses in the US tend to be twice as large as Greek homes, having multiple bathrooms and air conditioning unlike Greek homes where such amenities are less common.

As an American I am really getting tired of fear mongering....we don't need a new source of national paranoia. As a Greek I am surprised with the misrepresentations of the news piece... finger pointing from a country that is billions of dollars in debt to China.[/quote]
Ginny,
You got right the fact that the USA needs to clean up its debt as well. Some economists have stated that California's debt is on comparatively on par with Greece's, not to mention our Federal Debt.
Still, Greece's debt problems are in the extreme and Greece needs to right is ship. I read somewhere that at one time 50% those employed in Greece work for Government. That is obscene.

As far as the standard of living is concerned, such comparisons make little sense when the problem is Government.

I wish Greece the best. Greeks are wonderful people and have a beautiful country.

[vjmatty]

[quote name='4774Papa'] I read somewhere that at one time 50% those employed in Greece work for Government. That is obscene.
[/QUOTE]

No worse than where I live now, way up north in the good old state of NY.....also deeply in debt, by the way :o

[Anapli]

[quote name='nick_arch']I have to disagree wholeheartedly.

I see no rich people around me and i live in a "good" area of the city.

Greece has many rich people that live abroad and do business here or live here and evade tax payments.

Majority of people used to be middle class, pay their taxes and now are low class with no money to pay taxes or anything.

Making 20k here ( $26k ) you are considered rich. Even on such a low brakcet, you 'll not find many people that make that money now.[/quote]

I live in the worst area of Athens (Agios Pantelehmonas)... I take a look out of my window and I see:

1 Porsche Cayenne, 1 Mercedes SLK and 1 Audi R7 (jeep type)

and not belong all these to foreigners, belong to Greeks..

and the numbers say the truth:

depositing money in Greek banks = over 2 trillions
depositing money in out of Greece banks = over 500 billions

a day we must look our faces in the mirror and ask our self... "What am I doing wrong in my life?"

[vjmatty]

[quote name='Anapli']I live in the worst area of Athens (Agios Pantelehmonas)... I take a look out of my window and I see:

1 Porsche Cayenne, 1 Mercedes SLK and 1 Audi R7 (jeep type)

and not belong all these to foreigners, belong to Greeks..

and the numbers say the truth:

depositing money in Greek banks = over 2 trillions
depositing money in out of Greece banks = over 500 billions

a day we must look our faces in the mirror and ask our self... "What am I doing wrong in my life?"[/QUOTE]

Three luxury cars out of hundreds of thousands of vehicles in the city of Athens?

Like the ridiculous pension comparison story in the abc news link, people need to remember that anecdotes are not data.

[nick_arch]

Total of deposits in Greek Banks for the third semester was 187 bn euros. That includes the deposits of 2,5 million immigrants too.
Median of deposits were 14,000 euros per person, currently lower from any country in the Eurozone.

It 'd be better if we all kept some level of basic seriousness during these times, not reproducing whatever we read or, even worse, imagine.

A Porsche Cayenne would not "survive" in Aghios Panteleimonas more than 5 minutes before put on fire.

Wide scale tax evasion is a problem, but i have a hard time to imagine that Mercedes SLK or Porsche Cayenne are on Greek roads more than any car. They are definitely to be seen on the posh neighbourhoods, although i doubt this too. Re: Aghios Panteleimonas, i really don't think Porsche owners have moved into [I]gettho central[/I], en masse. Really.

[nick_arch]

Greeks are being constantly bullied for more than three years now as "lazy" and "hiding their richness". This is a consistent effort to make people all over the world believe that pain and destruction of an economy are morally acceptable for a "general good".
It reminds of me of all the WW2 propaganda about superiority of an Aryan race. We end up this way in Europe again, after 70 years.

Currently all Southern Europe is crippling under this and some hysterical voices still play their broken record.

You may want to read this:
[URL="http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/tag/ersi-sotiropoulos/"]http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/tag/ersi-sotiropoulos/[/URL]

[4774Papa]

[quote name='nick_arch']Greeks are being constantly bullied for more than three years now as "lazy" and "hiding their richness". This is a consistent effort to make people all over the world believe that pain and destruction of an economy are morally acceptable for a "general good".
It reminds of me of all the WW2 propaganda about superiority of an Aryan race. We end up this way in Europe again, after 70 years.

Currently all Southern Europe is crippling under this and some hysterical voices still play their broken record.

You may want to read this:
[URL]http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/tag/ersi-sotiropoulos/[/URL][/quote]
Nick,
I lived in Germany for four years and found no remnants of an attitude of Aryan superiority. Except for a few skinheads and 80 year old ****S, Germans are profoundly ashamed of what they did to Europe in WWII.

Also, I worked with a Greek expatriate while in Germany, who was one of the hardest working guys that I have ever known. Still, he came to Germany to further his career.

The link that you posted makes a few good points. We all know it is wrong to stereotype a country. However, reading between the lines, it appears to me that many Greeks still cannot accept responsibility for their own actions (or actions of their duly elected leaders).

Stop the name calling, but accept responsibility for the mess and work to correct the mistakes of the past.

Having traveled to nearly all the countries of Europe, I can say that while no country should be called lazy, there are levels of efficiency that prevail in Northern Europe that do not prevail in the South. This cultural difference is not really relevant to the economic issue at hand.

[nick_arch]

Comment about Aryan race is a metaphor and it should be conceived like this.

Responsibility when borrowing money is double sided.
The one getting the loans should accept responsibility.
Nevertheless, no one speaks about the responsibility ( or the risk ) of the one borrowing someone till death.

Case here is not about the reponsibility of the Greeks. We are receiving this every day in ways you can never imagine.

So, in practical terms and beyond any moral discussion, what is the way for a Greek to "accept responsibility" exactly?

We are taxed till death, most of us have no job for more than four years, our level of life is dropping day by day and some of us have no food.
What else exactly has to be done? What else do we have to give?

Head or arm? Because we have lost everything else.

My comment on Aryan philosophy is / intends to be a deeply degrading comment for a way of governing that believes in punishment instead of growth. This exactly, spiced with comments about productivity is the heart of the problem.

[4774Papa]

[quote name='nick_arch']Comment about Aryan race is a metaphor and it should be conceived like this.

Responsibility when borrowing money is double sided.
The one getting the loans should accept responsibility.
Nevertheless, no one speaks about the responsibility ( or the risk ) of the one borrowing someone till death.

Case here is not about the reponsibility of the Greeks. We are receiving this every day in ways you can never imagine.

So, in practical terms and beyond any moral discussion, what is the way for a Greek to "accept responsibility" exactly?

We are taxed till death, most of us have no job for more than four years, our level of life is dropping day by day and some of us have no food.
What else exactly has to be done? What else do we have to give?

Head or arm? Because we have lost everything else.

My comment on Aryan philosophy is / intends to be a deeply degrading comment for a way of governing that believes in punishment instead of growth. This exactly, spiced with comments about productivity is the heart of the problem.[/quote]
Nick, perhaps there is a degree of responsibility on the part of the banks loaning to a sovereign entity. However, I would opine that that responsibility pales in comparison to the debtor. If I max out 12 credit cards, are the banks responsible? Not so much.

Bankruptcy is an option if my debts is unpayable and I become a slave to the debt, however for a sovereign entity bankruptcy is technically not an option. Default is an option. Other countries have defaulted (Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, etc.), and extreme inflation was the result.

Prior to Mexico's default in the 70s, the Peso was 8 to one USD. It reached 8000 at some point, and Mexico changed the currency to eliminate three zeroes for the new Peso. That wiped out a lot of savings for those that had been thrifty and saved.

What do you think Greece needs to do?

[MANURULES]

There are two kinds of responsibility when we use the word.

At least the way I see things.

I for one do not accept responsibility for the actions of both parties here in the states .

I do not accept and vehemently oppose their actions during and after the 08 crisis, and the nations debt to name a couple.

Yet I am responsible for the bailout and the balance of the dept.

On one type of responsibility I have a choice of accepting or not ,the other ( me the taxpayer paying for the dept ) is in fact imposed on me, no choice there.

 

The fact is that citizens here and elsewhere retain the right to agree or disagree with the ways their imposed responsibility will be repaid.

This is what its all about both in DC and Athens.

I am the one cosigning the loan , I demand a say in the naming of the terms.

I want more favorable terms.I might or not succeed in that.

How is that skirting responsibility?

This is what I see as people not really understanding whats going on in Athens.

People are upset with the little guy carrying a disproportional load of the imposed terms.

They know they have to pay the money back.That's a given.

They are upset with the way the terms have been imposed.

The utter stupidity of The EU,IMF and WB to impose terms that practically shut down the economy overnight,yet act astonishingly surprised when the

deficit increases as a result, is beyond belief.

Even the simpletons among us will not expect tax revenue increase under such conditions.

The citizens have seen their taxes increase tenfold,and salaries cut dramatically in the last two years yet not a single act of helping the market grow has been initiated.

I for certain do not accept responsibility for such actions here or there.

But I will end up paying for it.

[nick_arch]

Greece is done. Finished. Caput. After three years on IMF - EU supervision, the patient is dying because the medicine is too strong.

 

Greeks now needs serious help for any kind of growth and anything that can bring jobs. This can probably generate tax income and stability conditions which would help us pay back.

 

What we have seen last three years is a constant raise on any kind of taxes, double taxation on the same things, extra taxation, taxation again. And then taxation, taxation, taxation. Amount of taxes imposed is simply inconceibable to any of you and this has the exact same outcome on bank accounts with a bankrpuptcy. Remember, this is the third year in recession here. Rent incomes have dropped 40%, taxes income for the government even more. Salaries have dropped 40%, tax income even more. Pensions have dropped and consuming has been crippled at an amount you can't conceive. Unemployment is raising day by day.

 

Greece needs a shock treatment on shrinking the number of employees on public sector and lowering pension payments. This would create a lack of tax income but it would ( with a lot of pain ) shrink the amount of money Greece has to pay annually.

 

Then it also needs an effective tax mechanism that would retain tax income of the government, without adding further weight to those already paying. Despite the stereotyping, many people pay their taxes here and those are harder hit now.

 

It also needs an initiative to create jobs and taxable income. Government income is generated by taxes. You can't get any taxes from a dry stone.

 

If you get all these to work: people, administration and taxation, you get some balance.

 

These were, at a great deal, the measures proposed by the IMF as a general guideline, back in 2008. Only one of these have been deployed and this is strictly raise of taxation without hitting any of the endemic problems of the economy. Reason? Nobody wanted to open the Pandora Box. Nevertheless, raise of taxation created more problems that those it fixed, so basically has got us into a death spiral which is difficult to end.

[4774Papa]

Greece is done. Finished. Caput. After three years on IMF - EU supervision, the patient is dying because the medicine is too strong.

 

Greeks now needs serious help for any kind of growth and anything that can bring jobs. This can probably generate tax income and stability conditions which would help us pay back.

 

What we have seen last three years is a constant raise on any kind of taxes, double taxation on the same things, extra taxation, taxation again. And then taxation, taxation, taxation. Amount of taxes imposed is simply inconceibable to any of you and this has the exact same outcome on bank accounts with a bankrpuptcy. Remember, this is the third year in recession here. Rent incomes have dropped 40%, taxes income for the government even more. Salaries have dropped 40%, tax income even more. Pensions have dropped and consuming has been crippled at an amount you can't conceive. Unemployment is raising day by day.

 

Greece needs a shock treatment on shrinking the number of employees on public sector and lowering pension payments. This would create a lack of tax income but it would ( with a lot of pain ) shrink the amount of money Greece has to pay annually.

 

Then it also needs an effective tax mechanism that would retain tax income of the government, without adding further weight to those already paying. Despite the stereotyping, many people pay their taxes here and those are harder hit now.

 

It also needs an initiative to create jobs and taxable income. Government income is generated by taxes. You can't get any taxes from a dry stone.

 

If you get all these to work: people, administration and taxation, you get some balance.

 

These were, at a great deal, the measures proposed by the IMF as a general guideline, back in 2008. Only one of these have been deployed and this is strictly raise of taxation without hitting any of the endemic problems of the economy. Reason? Nobody wanted to open the Pandora Box. Nevertheless, raise of taxation created more problems that those it fixed, so basically has got us into a death spiral which is difficult to end.

Nick, I like all three points of your plan.

However, I sense MANURULES has a good point about disagreeing with the bailouts we had in the States. Still, the problem is that Government created the problems that led to the debt bomb.

 

The bigger picture is how do Greece, Italy, Spain, UK, the USA and others resolve the overriding debt bomb that threatens at some point their survival? Cut the bloated spending and reform taxes(simpler without politically induced loopholes).

[nick_arch]

It's extremely difficult to conceive how USA and Greece compare, but actually, you are very correct that they do.

 

My main "problem" is that sizes of both countries are out of any comparison.

 

And yet, dramatically, thay seem to have fallen in a similar trap. How deeply ironic.

 

What crunches budget in both countries is different but outcome is exactly the same: Both countries pay more than what they "make" per year. And if "some" deficit is healthy to run an economy, i sense this is not the case.

 

Here in Greece, deficit is produced by a combination of overspending but also has a dimension that is difficult to get rid of: That's dumb management and lack of predictions for the future. Solution proposed / followed right now is based on a more Germanic concept of crunching down demand and services in favor of a future expansion of industry.

 

I wouldn't say problem in Greece has to do with benefits ( we have no significant benefits ). The so called "free health" here is not free, since we have to pay 300 - 600 euros per month, on top of tax payments to get this coverage.

 

Problem in USA is similar but solution mainly followed last years was some inflation and a struggle to raise demand and consumer trust.

 

These roads are completely different and, i am afraid both are short sighted and lack overall perspective of the problem.

 

Truth is somewhere in the middle and i am afraid struggle to get over debt in large scales like countries, is titanic and needs intelligent plans that will raise demand, create real jobs and in the same time raise taxation on those not paying or evading under the radars.

 

What makes me have a hard time to conceive things is that, besides the difference on size, in both countries, USA and Greece, we are speaking about rich countries, with lot of resources and mainly, people willing to work a lot and work their way out of the situation for both their personal interest and the national interest. I have a hard time to understand why we are failing, especially in the case of USA where size, population, abundance of resources and mentality can definitely guarantee an extremely good future. USA is a model for many countries in the area you know despite any unfortunate decisions. It is a model for healthy enterpreunership, a well built and administered country. I understand some things have been going a bit wrong during the last 30 yrs maybe, i also understand that center of monetary world is shifting perhaps towards Asia now, still, good qualities are always good qualities. These things don't dissapear like this.

[4774Papa]

It's extremely difficult to conceive how USA and Greece compare, but actually, you are very correct that they do.

 

My main "problem" is that sizes of both countries are out of any comparison.

 

And yet, dramatically, thay seem to have fallen in a similar trap. How deeply ironic.

 

What crunches budget in both countries is different but outcome is exactly the same: Both countries pay more than what they "make" per year. And if "some" deficit is healthy to run an economy, i sense this is not the case.

 

Here in Greece, deficit is produced by a combination of overspending but also has a dimension that is difficult to get rid of: That's dumb management and lack of predictions for the future. Solution proposed / followed right now is based on a more Germanic concept of crunching down demand and services in favor of a future expansion of industry.

 

I wouldn't say problem in Greece has to do with benefits ( we have no significant benefits ). The so called "free health" here is not free, since we have to pay 300 - 600 euros per month, on top of tax payments to get this coverage.

 

Problem in USA is similar but solution mainly followed last years was some inflation and a struggle to raise demand and consumer trust.

 

These roads are completely different and, i am afraid both are short sighted and lack overall perspective of the problem.

 

Truth is somewhere in the middle and i am afraid struggle to get over debt in large scales like countries, is titanic and needs intelligent plans that will raise demand, create real jobs and in the same time raise taxation on those not paying or evading under the radars.

 

What makes me have a hard time to conceive things is that, besides the difference on size, in both countries, USA and Greece, we are speaking about rich countries, with lot of resources and mainly, people willing to work a lot and work their way out of the situation for both their personal interest and the national interest. I have a hard time to understand why we are failing, especially in the case of USA where size, population, abundance of resources and mentality can definitely guarantee an extremely good future. USA is a model for many countries in the area you know despite any unfortunate decisions. It is a model for healthy enterpreunership, a well built and administered country. I understand some things have been going a bit wrong during the last 30 yrs maybe, i also understand that center of monetary world is shifting perhaps towards Asia now, still, good qualities are always good qualities. These things don't dissapear like this.

Nick, You are right about USA and Greece having people and resources to do well. Still, good governance can make a difference. A hundred years ago Argentina had a standard of living in the top 10 nations in the World. They lost it due to poor governance.