Double standards maybe

[turtlemichael]

I imagine I am breaching some rule and this thread will be instantly vaporized but it is okay on these boards to talk about swinging, public sex acts, and numerous other activities which some straight people appear to get up to. This is the subject matter of the Love Stories board.

 

Apparently children will either not read or be harmed by these deviations from "normal" which are often described in great detail and certainly more explicitly than anything on the g+l board. However, they will be harmed by a largely humorous discussion on this board.

 

I wonder what the difference is?

[LenaDaLlama]

personally, I don't allow my children to get on the internet at home, because there can be "trash" no matter where they go or what they are looking up, that's just the way it is nowadays....if we have to look something up for a project, ect...I am the one sitting at the computer OR we do it the old-fashioned way and head to the library!! I have a password on my computer now and they can't do anything without me knowing it....of course, who knows what goes on at their friends' house!! And that is the scary part of parenting...oh well, my 2cents

[bdjam]

Apparently children will either not read or be harmed by these deviations from "normal" which are often described in great detail and certainly more explicitly than anything on the g+l board. However, they will be harmed by a largely humorous discussion on this board.

 

I wonder what the difference is?

I don’t think there is any difference, except that for a good percentage of people, being gay is already a bad thing and so any behavior associated with being gay is considered more tainted than deviant straight behavior. It is a matter of double standard and prejudice – and sometimes internal homophobia.

There are a number of straight Cruise Critic members who read these boards and while many are quite friendly to the community, others use what has been posted here negatively. I’ve been bashed on other boards based on what I’ve posted here…never stopped me!!

[turtlemichael]

bdjam!

 

 

 

Husband!!!!

[Blazerboy]

As much as I didn't take part in the discussion, other than reading the back and forth from the "live-and-let-live" crowd and the "behave-yourself" crowd, I do have opinions:

 

One, I'm not that comfortable with the idea of organized 4:00 p.m. group whatever, no judgement, just me:o . On cruise ships, on land, whatever. Call me boring, assimilationist, or just plain inhibited.

 

Two, on the other hand, there is a double standard. I read some of the posts in love lounge, or whatever it's called, and it's the same thing, just with general society's blessing or at least the turning of a blind eye.

 

We need to remember that, as unfair as it is, we are seen first as the "activity", second as a human, where with straights, it's the other way around. Your "activity" is a subset of who you are when you're straight, not the primary quality about you. Truly sad, but hard to explain even to many "open-minded" liberal straight friends. Almost makes me, on my next cruise, want to....nevermind

 

But to OP, you are right, for what it's worth.:(

[MILEMRKR63]

I think this goes to show that the Gay/Lesbian board has quite a following of readers that many may not have known.

[BigGayBob]

There is a double standard. Its a fact.

 

I would like to sumbit a few facts, though, for consideration. Public sex acts occur everywhere, in every culture, and every lifestyle: straight, gay, black, white, American, European, etc... And it occurs on cruise ships, either on a balcony in port, or against the funnel at 2am or whatever. Things happen, and I am not against the occurance of life's events in any way. Life is life and stuff happens.

 

But the straight community in general has not delegated itself a specific time/location standard for public sex cruisin' in such an overt way as the well-known 4pm gay steam-room. There is, for example, no "discreet straight sex in the library at 9pm" motto. And there is no "6am straight sex everyday in the top-deck jacuzzi." Yes those things may occur from time to time with different people, but the straight community has not planted its flag in the earth, and proclaimed itself a right to a specific spot and time for debauchery every day aboard a ship.

 

There is a modicum of overt egotism in the existence of the "4pm gay steamroom" that does not exist in the straight community. And on behalf of myself, my husband, my friends, and my children, I am embarassed and mortified by this type of organized hedonism. The "4pm steam room" standard is basically giving the finger to society.

 

Having something fun and sexual happen in public areas is different from a community of people organizing their at-sea days around a scheduled debauchery event. Totally different.

 

The gay community owns part of the blame for double standards. Not the largest part, but a small part at least. The double standard will never go away or weaken if we continue to do things that play into the hands of those that would hold us down, demean us, imprison us, or worse.

[Blazerboy]

BOB, In general, you and I probably comport ourselves the same way, but, I do have a problem with the apologist strategy that you espouse. First we were told we were not deserving of valid relationships, so we had a culture that revolved around sex, with those who found a mate having a very hard time of it. We were then accused of being immoral. We developed as a visible community, and more and more of us found long term relationships, and then we're told we're not suitable rolemodels and that we're perverts. We even go so far (some of us) to find spirtiuality and have our unions blessed by society, and then are told we're not suitable for such a venerable relationship as marriage. Well, News Flash, straight people have screwed up that institution beyond belief. And if anyone needs to apologize for the immorality in this world, and for what is truly harmful to society, it is said community, who finds the expression of of our physical attraction repulsive but such a topic of interest that they can't see their own hypocracy, that needs to start talking fast, and stop pointing fingers. (End of rant:o )

 

And just to keep on topic, I'm excited about my next cruise.:D

[tadjr]

I ended up skipping the end of the 4pm thread so I dont know why it ended up being pulled. Personally, I dont care about the thread or about most of the posts on the Romance board, but some of the discussions left on there are kind of strange given the reason in the note from the admin about "watching what is posted" and threads being pulled.

2 swinger threads, most daring place for sex and rookie nookie?

These are all great threads for the kids to be reading imo.

[LauraS]

The discussion of public sex, and private sex for that matter, have no business anywhere on Cruise Critic. And we don't care who the participants are....

 

Laura

[mcboo]

Very well said Laura.

mcboo

[Mrmacman]

Fair enough Laura, but please keep your diligent eyes on the "love and romance" board as well. It does appear that CC went through that board in the last 24 hours and cleaned out all the filth from those straight people as well. I can sleep better knowing CC is safe. Now can we all get back to real issues.....

[argosy]

I'm laughing at myself, because I skimmed through that vaporized thread, and in all honesty did not understand what it was about. I vaguely thought it was a way for gay people to socialize, like an unofficial FOD thing. I had no idea it was about sex.

 

I get an F in reading skills!

[gadawg1979]

the great world of censorship, I would visit the boards in CC telling people how to sneak Cuban Cigars into the USA. International law breakers OK, Express a true opinion Censored.

[Blazerboy]

It's amazing. Straight people are telling about 25 sexually graphic jokes a day over on float away lounge, but over here, we're held to a higher level both by the moderators and by fellow G/L posters. And just today someone posted about "hooking up" on Spring Break.

 

It's about equality, people. If you're going to claim to have one standard, then have just one, and apply it equally!

 

I know I shouldn't be so incensed, especially as I'm not advocating for the 4 p.m. thing, but I hate disingenous reasoning combined with false piety and puritanism when it comes to our community. I choose appropriate behavior (by my definition) for myself- I'm not so quick as some to try to determine it for others.

 

(THUD)

 

(That was me stepping off my soapbox.) :o

 

Happy weekend everyone, and happy cruising (and yes, I meant on ships...wait... I meant happy voyages in vessels...wait...wow, it's amazing- everything can be dirty if you want to see it that way;) )

 

Bette Midler in the movie "For the Boys" is telling about her conversation with her son: "Mommy, is sex dirty?" Her reply: "Only if you're doing it right!":D (just realized that wasn't the quote, but oh, well)

[turtlemichael]

Well said Blazer boy!

 

Following are on the list of words I'll try not use on these boards because I am a gentle fellow and don't want to offend anyone.

 

steam

cruise

meet

talk

entertainment staff

4.00pm

 

The quote at the end of Laura's input should be read by all.

 

Have a good weekend all.

[digby]

Is this 4 PM sex party in the steam room something that is true about all cruise ships? I've been on 4 cruises, and I have never heard of it, not that my partner and I would attend. (Not that we would be encouraged to at our ages!) I'm as open minded as anyone on most matters, but think this is a terrible idea whether it is gay or straight sex. It would be one thing if it took place in the privacy of a cabin, but in a public steam room with straights and maybe kids, it is not. Sometimes we create our own problems.

[mcboo]

It's amazing. Straight people are telling about 25 sexually graphic jokes a day over on float away lounge, but over here, we're held to a higher level both by the moderators and by fellow G/L posters. And just today someone posted about "hooking up" on Spring Break.

 

It's about equality, people. If you're going to claim to have one standard, then have just one, and apply it equally!

 

I know I shouldn't be so incensed, especially as I'm not advocating for the 4 p.m. thing, but I hate disingenous reasoning combined with false piety and puritanism when it comes to our community. I choose appropriate behavior (by my definition) for myself- I'm not so quick as some to try to determine it for others.

 

(THUD)

 

(That was me stepping off my soapbox.) :o

 

Happy weekend everyone, and happy cruising (and yes, I meant on ships...wait... I meant happy voyages in vessels...wait...wow, it's amazing- everything can be dirty if you want to see it that way;) )

 

Bette Midler in the movie "For the Boys" is telling about her conversation with her son: "Mommy, is sex dirty?" Her reply: "Only if you're doing it right!":D (just realized that wasn't the quote, but oh, well)

 

That is what your cabin is for! I don't need to see a gay couple or str8 couple going at it in a public place.

GET A ROOM ( OH I FORGOT YOU ALREADY PAID FOR ONE)

 

What you do in your own cabin is your own business. What you do in a public room is EVERYBODY'S business.

 

This coming from a stable gay couple of 15 years.:):)

Me 42 My Loving Partner 74

 

Let the flames fly.

mcboo

[turtlemichael]

This is very difficult because I a did not want to restart the content of the thread that caused the issue. That appears to be the case and will probably result in a complaint and this thread being pulled.

 

I only raised the issue because I do not like double standards. To me it is a double standard to allow the same sort of discussion for years in a straight context but not in a gay one. In fact the straight ones, most of which appear to have been pulled in the last 24 hours since I started this thread, were much more graphic and specific. They survived apparently under the noses of the moderators as acceptable.

 

I equal feel sorry for self loathing and internalised homophobia which to my mind some seem to demonstrate here.

 

Having said that, there were vitually no references in the thread to sex in public. There were lots of references to hooking up, meeting others, talking, checking the eye candy. Mostly it was done humorously. Although I have not done many cruises the idea that the steam rooms had become, by some sort of inter-cruiseline gay conspiracy, the floating equivalent of the Continental Baths in the early '70's, beggers belief. (hello to Bette Midler and everyone here over 50!)

 

On ships people do hook up and check each other out - sunbaking beside the pool, in steam rooms, bars, on excursions, and in lounges etc. On this gay and lesbian board half the posts are about meeting others. I am sure its for a variety of reasons. The major problem comes because in a steam room you tend to have less clothes on and that gets the moral crusaders very excited.

 

Blazerboy is told effectively to do it in his cabin. McBoo, you quote him but read his post again! He specifically says he is not advocating public sex. He says he objects to "disingenous reasoning combined with false piety and puritanism when it comes to our community"

 

For the record I am not advocating it either. I can understand that some people will be very offended if they stumble across it (so to speak). However, the chances of doing so on a ship are almost zero, in a steam room or anywhere else, and if it does occur I'd suggest that the chances are it will be straight couple you stumble over.

 

For those of us who are gay men here I think that our efforts would be much better directed at not seeing the worst in others, appreciating humor, being consistent, overcoming the false moral indignation and getting on with life.

 

As a member of a minority I think it is more than reasonable to shout loudly when someone applies different standards to the behaviour expected of me (including the things I can write about on this board) compared with others. I am glad that the moderators belated have noticed this. :)

[CruiserRick34]

It is truly sad that something as innocuous as a chat thread, begun (not by me,thankfully) as a question on the veracity of lore regarding ONE CRUISE LINE'S STAFF MEMBERS who may or may not congregate at a certain time at a certain place for socializing with guests has devolved into these tedious circles of opine, judgementals, hysteria and drama regarding decorum and relative levels of gay moral terpitude.

 

It speaks volumes to what several had mentioned in the thread in question: Never was anything illegal, immoral, or pre-ordained stated or advocated. Noone has staked a claim to anything, anywhere. It was a harmless question with some light hearted banter back and forth. I would concur with fellow thread writers that the other "special interest" threads are far more suggestive of inappropriate behavior than this one could possible imagine, and deserving of whatever "censorship" is exerted over such a board. As such, as a group we have a long way to go in the "just chill out" category.

[kwokpot]

I was one of the posters on the 'original' thread, and I was sad but not surprised that it was deleted. My contributions to it were not explicit nor offensive.

 

Anyway, I'm back tonight from my 5 night Carnival Sensation Cruise, and I STILL maintain that the sauna/steamroom is one place to meet people and have some nice conversations - with NOTHING to do about sex.

 

Someone on the original thread responded that they meeet people the old fashioned way, in the bar and lounges. Well, for me, that's not where I go spend time in. NOT all gay men go to the Martini Bars for drinks - I for one don't drink - I did not have one bar charge on my bill this whole cruise.

 

I did not travel with my partner on this trip - I was in a single.

 

I met several 'family' members in the sauna/steamroom, and had nice conversations (Carnival doesn't have FOD parties, and on this particular cruise, there were SEVERAL Southern Christian Baptist groups on board - talk about Red State/Blue State!). They were all traveling with their partners and/or families.

I also met many more 'straight' guys, both young and old, and had nice conversations about everything; being a New Yorker, 9/11, Bush, the weather, politics, vacationing, cruising, etc. Sex never entered into the picture. When you're in a small, confined space the size of a walk-in closet, it's a natural place to have conversations with others around you.

 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on this thread.

[Blazerboy]

Turtlemichael, I would say "thanks for watching my back," but that might be misinterpreted by others.:D And thanks for CORRECTLY interpreting my comments.

 

McBoo, be careful about claiming the high road because of the longevity of your relationship. The biggest letches I've ever encountered, gay or straight, were the ones in long-term "stable" relationships.

[DCT61]

WOW. Talk about painting with a broad brush

[Blazerboy]

DCT61, it was hyperbole- sorry. :)

 

This coming from a stable gay couple of 15 years.

Mcboo claimed a right to pass judgement based on the fact that he has been with his partner for 15 years. Many couples are monogamous, and that's great if that's their choice (It's actually mine, too) but let's not set up some false sense of moral superiority over those who choose otherwise, solely based on number of years in a relationship. There are many long term couples for whom "other arrangements" work. Not me, not Mcboo, it seems, but plenty of others I know, and you probably know, too.

 

Cheers.

[DCT61]

YEP blazerboy, you're correct...I do know couples like that. Although it works for them, it would not for me and my partner. By the way, enjoyed your comments on the CELEBRITY "gay" thread.