Stores that carry "FIRE" season clothing

[aoknkentucky]

Oh, how great is that!! Well, not the coffee on the computer screen, but just to know I'm not the only one. I don't feel nearly as bad now, since you have Anita's expertise for hands-on training, even if it is only during your short visits.

 

Thanks, Pam. You've made my day! --Debbie

[Member123]

Ladies, (Hi, Kim... welcome back! I've been thinking about you... BTW, those piles of "dirt" that you were wondering about alongside the highway. Lady friend! Those are our foothills! Just like your DH, DS, and I thought when you were describing them... I was on that highway the other day and thought of you.)

 

Posting the pictures is a dream/nightmare, isn't it? First, I go through the whole resistance to posting thing. Then, I get my emotions all stirred up waiting for some feedback and responses. Then I think that I'll never post another picture again. Then the responses come and the whole discussion plays out and I realize that I've had a bit of fun doing it. So, it's just something that I think we have to practice... practice... practice.

 

Kim, I'm so sorry that you're having problems with the computer. That just adds to the drama of the emotions about posting in the first place. Like... "is this a sign fform the universe that I'm not supposed to be doing this?" It isn't; be persistent. Sometimes the servers are non-cooperative. The best site that I can seem to use without as much difficulty is photobucket.

 

Wardrobe issues. Here are my current thoughts.

 

I'll relate it back to those white capris with the gold thread that I wanted so badly for my last cruise... and I thought would look stunning because of the nautical environment, etc. And I even convinced Anita that I could buy something that was definitely not in my palette because I didn't have to buy different shoes, etc. So we had that whole discussion about when we could "break the rules." Remember?

 

But, I also bought the exact same capris in a sand color, a very golden beige. When I saw the difference(s) in the pictures that were taken when I had the white capris vs the sand capris... well then I could visually see what an eyesore those white capris brought to my outfit and how wonderfully the sand capris just made a complete statement and enhanced my overall look. So now I'm convinced that "breaking the rules" isn't that wonderful... or justified.

 

But old habits are hard to break! I don't know why I'm so drawn to black/white dressing. Maybe because I did it for years and years? Those outfits that are displayed in catalogs and the mannequins look gorgeous to me! But at least I'm smart enough to know to resist them. As much as I love my black formal dress... it so doesn't look that gorgeous on me. Well, that's not true. The dress looks gorgeous and I get many, many compliments when I wear it. The compliments are all about the gorgeous dress... not a word about the gorgeous ME. I want to hear "YOU look gorgeous tonight" NOT "wow, what a gorgeous dress."

 

Here's what you have to do... here's opinion time...

 

just practice in front of a mirror with your current clothing...

 

... you have at least one item that you know, without hesitation, is FIRE...

 

Hold up fabric to your face and see what happens to your (a) complexion (b) eyes © hair. Just hold up the fabric, look for a while, take away the fabric, look.

 

There may be absolutely nothing that happens... that you can see...

 

Now, hold up the fabric that you know for certain is FIRE...

 

I can practically guarantee you that you'll see an immediate difference. Something will happen. You will immediately have the experience of... being drawn to your eyes... seeing your skin take on a healthier glow... etc.

 

Just try this.

 

Ditch the cards... and look in the mirror...

 

Why did the fabric that didn't appear to do anything act like that? Because it doesn't DO anything for you... it's not in your color palette... and the fabric that makes you appear healthier, less tired, brighter eyed.. well, it's FIRE.

 

If you practice this enough, you will SEE the difference. I know you will. Because you can see the difference in others. If you really can't see any differences at all, then enlist the help of your BFF. You'll be able to see the difference, perhaps, more objectively in another person.

 

When Anita came to visit, we just tried on some of my items that were questionable for me... like the Venice scene top... and it was so, so much prettier on her than on me. She said that she was going to post a picture of that top so that we could see the comparison. Smarty pants said, "the ladies can see what happens when an EARTH wears an EARTH instead of a FIRE wearing an EARTH! So they'll know it wasn't a problem with the top!" I think I just gave her a raspberry or some appropriate answer to that statement... not sure at the moment...

 

What was surprising was when she tried on some items that I thought were definitely mine. And we discussed whether the mistake was in the clearness of the fabric because it just looked better on her than we thought it would. That's when we had the whole discussion about a bright, clear color vs a bright, muted color.

 

Anyway, the point of this is that... it's not easy. And I have found myself getting pickier and pickier and pickier. Debbie, you're so right... it seems like such an effort in shopping.. and I never understood the whole "shopping" concept before.. but now I do. To find the perfect "something," in color, fit, fabric, style... it takes a lot of shopping. No more running in and out of stores. This is serious, serious business.

 

LOL.

 

But, it is serious! Because we know that we can look our best and we don't want to settle anymore for looking less than we know we can. So we just have to evolve through this learning phase and its associated frustrations.

 

IMO. :D

 

Looking forward to your pictures, Kim! :D

[Anita Latte]

LADIES!! Ya'll are cracking me up this morning...here is the long promised picture:

 

 

I'm a little puffy...but I'm still catching up on sleep from the holiday weekend. Regardless...you can see how healthy EARTH looks in EARTH! I wish we had thought to take a picture of me in Mom's FIRE print...so you could see how BAD Earth looks in Fire! LOL!

[Joby]

OMG, Anita, what a difference in EARTH v FIRE the pictures are! What a novel way to post too--a mother/daughter battle of colors :D

 

I can only post for a minute, I have to go to work for the whole afternoon. I'm going to try again tonight with the pictures. It's weird, I've never had this kind of trouble posting pics before. I still wonder if it has to do with the new camera.

 

Pam--the boys will love the dirt--they love it when they're both right ;)

 

Debbie--I think misery loves company, doesn't it? Every time I think I've gotten a good handle and confidence on FIRE, a new choice backfires. I'm determined to get a good grasp of this though!

 

BTW, I haven't seen the lovely TerriSea post on the FIRE thread forever. I miss her.

 

Terri--are you out there????????????

 

More later.

[Joby]

Let's see if this link works for the "study in greens".

 

http://s1094.photobucket.com/albums/i446/joby2/greens/

[Anita Latte]

Good morning Ladies!

 

I teach Zumba in one hour, and I still have to figure out my playlist...so I can't REALLY analyze these photos right now...but since I know how much we all love a response when we post photos...I DID do this little edit so that we could clearly talk about the different photos:

 

I give you A1, A2, A3, B1, B2, B3:

 

 

As crazy as this sounds...I don't think there are as many misses as you might first think...when you put a color together, remember, you can't help but start to call it YELLOW-green, BLUE-green...the word GREEN alone no longer seems sufficient...and our tendency is to automatically pick the blue ones as cool and the yellow ones as warm...but unfortunately, it's more complicated than that...my first glance at this...I think we are 50/50 for hits and misses...but want to look more before I post...which will have to wait until after class!

[Anita Latte]

OK.

 

My playlist was easy and I have some time...and I love talking about this!! Soooo....

 

First, the fact that some of the pictures are a little blurry and some aren't is a little distracting for me, simply because I need to make sure that I am looking for the right things in the photo and not liking one photo over another simply because it is a better PHOTO...KWIM?

 

So what are we looking for? First...we are looking for BLENDED skin...an even skin tone...we ALL have cells that are red or yellow...together they make our unique skin tone...when we wear certain colors...it can either enhance the DIFFERENCE in the red and yellow cells OR it can MINIMIZE the difference...the first makes us look blotchy...the second makes us look healthy and younger...

 

Redness usually appears in the cheeks, chin, and chest...yellow around the eyes, the sides of the mouth, and directly under the jaw line in the neck...can everyone see this on Kim? A2 REALLY shows this...

 

Another thing we look for is the focus of the picture...when you are wearing YOUR color...then YOU become the focus of the picture...the color ends up blending your skin tone...and as is natural...the features of your face (especially the eyes) will POP forward...when you first look at the picture your eyes are drawn to the face...IF you are NOT wearing your color...then it is like Sesame Street...the color is "doing it's own thing"...it is "not like the other ones" (the other ones being your skin, eyes, and hair)...and so your eye immediately goes to what is OFF in the photo...not that your face is "off" when you are the focus...LOL.

 

It IS interesting to note that a camera lens these days will go through all kinds of adjustments when the colors in the photo don't blend...and I have noticed in particular, when trying to take "color party" photos...that typically, when the party doesn't blend...I have a harder time getting a clear and focused picture...I think this is because my AUTO camera is doing a bunch of corrective techniques to try to FIX what it sees...and so...kind of like taking a picture in the dark...you have to hold the camera ULTRA steady to get a clear pictures.

 

I am running out of time...back later!

[Texaswinediva]

I love reading your posts but I can't see the pictures. It is just a box

with a red x in it. When I click on it, nothing happens. Can anyone tell

me what I need to do in order to see the pictures? I would appreciate it.

[Member123]

I love reading your posts but I can't see the pictures. It is just a box

with a red x in it. When I click on it, nothing happens. Can anyone tell

me what I need to do in order to see the pictures? I would appreciate it.

 

Good morning.

Are you saying you can't see the pictures in Anita's post above? Did you try the link that Joby posted? If you can't see the pictures in Anita's post, then use Joby's link because all Anita did was repost the pictures from the outside link into CC. Don't know why you can't see the pictures because they are there for me, but the CC gremlins tend to do strange things sometimes!

 

Just took a quick look at Joby's link. Don't know why Anita did it this way, but the numbering of the pictures 1 thru 6 using Anita's descriptions is A1, A2, A3, B1, B3, B2...

Edited September 8, 2011 by Member123
picture numbers

[aoknkentucky]

Texaswinediva - I'm not sure what's going on either, but I can't access the pictures using my computer. Is your computer set so that certain items are filtered out? My access won't allow me to use facebook or youtube. I'm not computer saavy enough to know all the correct terminology, but I wanted to let you know you are not alone. I CAN see the photos if I use my Iphone, however, so I'm just using both this morning. I'm looking at the pics on my phone and using my computer AND keyboard to type my response. There's more than one way to skin this cat!

 

Kim - Great Big A T T A G I R L to you!!! You know that you and I share this inadequacy of color, but I know how nerve-wracking it is to be waiting for responses, so I'll chime in. I saw your post late last night and looked at the pictures, but I chickened out and decided I'd let our more color saavy people post first. Since Anita has hinted 50/50, I'll give you my first thoughts.

 

A-1 is a lovely green color and I am drawn to it too, but I don't think it is a FIRE color. Too much blue in this green.

A-2 is an AIR green, maybe?

A-3 is sooooo not the green that I like, but I think it is a color that we can wear. (Caveat - only if it is hurt your eyes bright - any duller than that and I say we let Anita wear it!)

B-1 is my favorite for you. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE what it does to/for you. I see YOU.

B-2 is so similar to B-1 that I assume it is FIRE, but for some reason I like B-1 better. Is it because B-1 has the blue trim or is the photo a tiny bit out of focus?

B-3 is that lovely color of green with blue undertones, so this is a no for me.

 

Anita, while you are explaining the green-ness of it all, could you help Kim and I out on how we determine Emerald Turquoise (a CJW color name)? Aquas seem to be in everyone's color palette and I can distinguish an ICY aqua and sometimes an EARTHY aqua, but..... well, you know this is more of a challenge for some of us.....ME. Thanks.

[aoknkentucky]

Pam, thanks for the explanation about holding the colors to our face. I understand every word you are saying, but for some reason, it doesn't compute in my brain. When I have different shades together, I can see the colors as being more yellow-based or blue-based (sometimes!), but I have as much trouble seeing Kim's hair and complexion as bad-good-better-best as I do in seeing my own. I AM able to see how TERRIBLE I look in those EARTH colors that look so good on Anita. In fact, I have a top that is very similar to the comparison picture of you and Anita. Go figure!

 

I will try looking in the mirror with my Know-For-Sure Items and then using something questionable. I will do it over and over again and I WILL persevere!!!!! --Debbie

[Anita Latte]

I put the photos all together in a collage so that it can be easier to see the way that Kim's skin tone changes in relation to the colors she is wearing. I find it easier to look at the side by side comparisons...and I thought others might find that easier as well...

 

I mostly agree with Debbie...except for B3...not that I am positive about it...but on my screen...your skin looks really good in that photo...you are the focus of the picture...and your eyes are popping.

 

So this brings up questions...because I don't care for A1...B3 and A1 look similar...and one is in focus and one isn't...so it's confusing...

 

I understand what Debbie is saying about the BLUE in the green and how she is assuming that because there is blue in the green...it is a cool green...BUT...remembering the color cards...and knowing that I have muted BLUE green shirts...I am not ready to make a final judgement on B3.

 

I have a question...how does the shirt in B3 compare to the green shirt in this photo...a green which is obviously a BLUE green and matches the one color swatch on your cards?

 

 

The thing is that A2 is coming across as another blue green...but it is looking decidedly cool to me...there is a theory in gardening...when you are planting flowers...cool colors recede...warm colors advance...you can make a deep border FEEL more cozy by planting warm colored flowers in it...you can make a smaller bed FEEL like it is bigger by planting cool color flowers in it...especially when these colors are planted towards the back of the bed...

 

So take a look at A2 and A3...conveniently...the distance is similar...on my screen A3 (as a color) JUMPS forward...I feel like Kim is standing closer to the camera in A3 than she is in A2...but really...judging from the overall framing of the photo...these are similar. It's another clue that A3 is warm and A2 is cool.

 

Now look at B1 and B3...again Kim is a similar distance from the camera...and they feel the same...which would suggest that temperature-wise...they are the same...

 

But online photos are funny...so I could be totally wrong...

 

Which is why I am wondering how B3 compares to the shirt posted above.

[Member123]

OK.

 

Since we're having so much fun... here's what I think.

 

I immediately do not like A2 or A3.

 

I like the B's.

 

And, here's my methodology....

 

I'm not looking at the color(s) in each of the pictures. I'm just looking at the effect that the wearing of each color has on Kim's skin tone (specifically)... the skin tone is the most important. Second consideration is the hair because it's such a "crowning glory" if you will for all of us, being the second feature that has the most volume and therefore the most impact to our "look." The last feature to observe is the eyes and I think of all of our features, the eyes are the easiest for us to enhance, personally, with either eye shadow or mascara. It's not very easy to change our entire skin tone, especially in the chest and upper arms.. slightly easier with foundation, etc. to change the skin tone of the face... but, really, it's so much easier not to have to do that. It's virtually impossible to change the hair... and I'm not talking about a color touch up at the salon but the effect that clothing color choice has on the look of the hair...

 

So, in looking at the pictures, the first thing that I focus on is Kim's chest area. In that, all the B's are great... and A1. Now, I disregard the area under the chin... why?... because it's really in shadow to the camera's "eye." So, how does the skin tone of the face blend with the skin tone of the chest area? For me, the answer is all the B's... and A1.

 

So, by now, for whatever reason... I'm thinking that A2 and A3 are not right for Kim. Why? Well, I think that A2 is the wrong temperature... cool.. and I would classify that color in the AIR category. A3.. presents more of a problem... but here's what I'm leaning toward... I think that if Anita visited Kim that she would be able to take that color home... why?... because I think that the temperature is warm, but the color is one of those bright, muted colors that an EARTH can pull off... it's just not clear enough for Kim.

 

So, at the moment my votes are for the B's... along with A1.

 

It's difficult to look at the eye area because of Kim's glasses also providing a bit of shade to the camera's "eye." Her eye area looks very much like the area under her chin. So I'm not really looking at the eyes much...

 

but the hair... love what A1 and B3 do to Kim's hair... rich, wonderful deep tones come out...

 

here's my vote in order of awesomeness....

 

B3

A1

B1

B2

 

Now I'll go read what Anita says and see if we remotely agree!

 

Kim! What do you think of our observations? THANK YOU for doing this! I think it's extremely educational for all of us to see the effect of the colors... and I'd really like to know what everyone else thinks... I think focusing on one color like this was a super, awesome idea...

[Member123]

OK.

 

Well... we have some agreement... and some disagreement...

 

So I went back to try to figure out the problem with A1 and, I have to admit, I like A1 :p

 

So, Anita, explain what you're seeing that I'm not seeing? Or, are we now in a monitor/computer/display issue? Grrrr... that's always off-putting...:(

[Anita Latte]

OK.

 

Well... we have some agreement... and some disagreement...

 

So I went back to try to figure out the problem with A1 and, I have to admit, I like A1 :p

 

So, Anita, explain what you're seeing that I'm not seeing? Or, are we now in a monitor/computer/display issue? Grrrr... that's always off-putting...:(

 

I haven't really posted any definitive opinions...what I was trying to say is that I prefer B3 to A1...Kim looks a little more flushed in A1 than in B3...but maybe that's just because she was feeling funny about taking all the pictures and A1 is closer to the beginning of the picture taking session? The fact is that it would be great to see a photo of A1, B3, and the shirt in the color card pic all in one picture to see how those greens all compare to each other.

 

I just KNOW this is blowing Debbie's mind...

 

How can a blue green be warm!!??

 

Well...I don't know. But Kim's really looks good in that color! LOL.

[Joby]

I love reading your posts but I can't see the pictures. It is just a box

with a red x in it. When I click on it, nothing happens. Can anyone tell

me what I need to do in order to see the pictures? I would appreciate it.

 

Welcome to the party! I LOVE your name :)

 

Do you know your season? Please join in any time. It's always fun!

[Joby]

I'm having lots of trouble posting right now :( VERY slow.

 

OK, so, here are my thoughts--

 

A1--no--I think it's too much like an ICE green--it's in my "play clothes" pile

 

A2--no--I bought it a couple of days ago to bring home to see and I think it's AIR--it's going back

 

A3--I'm on the fence with this. I think it leans more toward our lighter granny apple green but, it also has that EARTH look to it, like chartruese

 

B1--yes

 

B2--yes

 

B3--I think this goes toward the blue'ish temps but not too far--it's in my "play clothes" pile

 

I'll do as Miss Anita suggests and take a photo of all 3 of the tops together.

 

BTW--DS did take the pictures and they ARE fuzzy looking. He took them really quickly and rather begrudgingly. He said he couldn't believe that we post our pictures and talk about color. He says "who cares?" And, I replied WE DO :)

[Joby]

Anita,

 

I forgot to ask you--how did you switch my pictures to here? They look so much better the way you posted them!

Edited September 8, 2011 by Joby

[Anita Latte]

In photobucket, if you select EDIT either across the top or on the word when you look at an individual picture...then you get to the area where you can mess with the photos.

 

In the EDIT area, there is a button on the far right called EZ Collage...it will go to a different screen, you have to click ok in a pop up box...and then there are several options of different numbered pictures to choose from...you pick one of the boxes on the left...and then it appears in a bigger way on the right...and in each box is the word SELECT.

 

Click on SELECT and then you can go through your photo albums to pick the picture you want to put in the collage.

 

There are controls to change the proportion of the picture (how much like a square or a rectangle it is) and how thick the lines are in between the photos.

 

Then you have to hit a button that says CUSTOMIZE and that takes you back to the EDIT area you were in before.

 

Click SAVE A COPY under the collage photo.

 

In order to get a 6-box...I had to pick the EZ collage that was for 9 pictures...I only filled the top 6 boxes...then I used the crop tool to only select the area that held the 6 photos and crop (or delete) what wasn't selected.

 

When you look at each individual photo, there is a box with four different codes on the right side of the screen. I think it is the last box that has the IMG tags around the address of the photo. If you click in that box, it will automatically copy that line. You can paste that into your reply. If you hit Preview Post before hitting Submit Reply, you can see that the photo will show up correctly.

 

Ask any other questions, if this was not clear.

[Joby]

Here is Anita's requested picture. One is with the color cards and one without. Hopefully they will both post.

 

[Joby]

I DID IT, Anita! Thanks bunches for the tips--you're a natural born teacher :)

 

Funny story about the middle top--it was in the dirty clothes hamper and I pulled it out to take the pictures. The dog got it and look at it now! I guess it goes from "play clothes" to rags.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Joby

[Anita Latte]

YAY!!

 

OK. Do you see what I see?

 

That looks like a color party to me!

 

Bummer about the dog and the shirt! The middle shirt is A1? And the right shirt is B3?

 

I KNOW. The ones on the right look MORE blue green than the others...but they don't FIGHT. They BLEND.

 

This is a repeat from the first page of the EARTH thread...but it's appropriate to repost, and hopefully get this photo close to yours...the picture below shows all kinds of EARTH green...in all it's yellow to blue to brown to gray muted splendor...note the BLUE-GREEN shirt in the middle...you can barely see it above the very brownish shorts...you might think it looks out of place...

 

 

But that just goes to show you how hard it is to find WARM muted blue-green. Because when I put the AIR green in the middle to show that it does NOT belong...you can SEE how warm that EARTH shirt is...it looks like a YELLOWY blue-green, if such a thing is possible.

 

 

Looking at your post again...the right shirts appear to blend into that one color swatch even better than the shirt on the left...like I did with that AIR shirt...you'd have to find the cool equivalent of those colors to really have your own AH HA moment with the color...but I do believe that those are FIRE colors.

[Member123]

Well, I'm having so much trouble trying to post. I think the CC gremlins are acting in overtime today. It told me that I blew up the database when I tried to post some images... so I'll be back in a bit.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Member123
trying for a bit more clarity? maybe?

[aoknkentucky]

I haven't really posted any definitive opinions...what I was trying to say is that I prefer B3 to A1...Kim looks a little more flushed in A1 than in B3...but maybe that's just because she was feeling funny about taking all the pictures and A1 is closer to the beginning of the picture taking session? The fact is that it would be great to see a photo of A1, B3, and the shirt in the color card pic all in one picture to see how those greens all compare to each other.

 

I just KNOW this is blowing Debbie's mind...

 

How can a blue green be warm!!??

 

Well...I don't know. But Kim's really looks good in that color! LOL.

 

Yep. Mind is in a million tiny pieces. ;) This is so much fun!

 

I think I focus on one thing and one thing only. The color of the item in question, I think.....maybe....well, I guess I'm not even sure about THAT anymore, KWIM? I have such low capabilities concerning colors that it does blow my mind to think someone can focus on hair, complexion, eyes, and then you go and say something like...camera focusing competing with the glasses, and WOW -- I didn't even notice the picture was out of focus until you mentioned it and I looked REALLY REALLY closely at it!

 

I have friends and a daughter that can look at an item and say "oh, I have a top at home that will match that." I can have the top in my hands and take it to the store with the express purpose of matching it with something and second guess myself about my choice sometimes. I don't mean this as a rant or a complaint. I just want others with my lack of color identifying skills to realize that we could form a club. It may be a very small elite group, but we do exist. :)

 

I understand why Kim started this thread and asked for store colors that are definite FIRE colors. If I know I can go into a store and look for a particular color and it be the right color for me, I can purchase it and use it as a control until I get a better handle on that particular red, green, or purple, etc. For me, this whole concept may well be right up there with rocket science! LOL

 

I'll be able to view comments but won't be able to post again until Monday. Ya'll carry on, PLEASE!!! It may soak in one day. --Debbie

[Member123]

These may not be the best pictures, but hopefully they will help to tell a story.

 

Here are the greens in my closet. I just spread them out on my couch and shot a quick picture. If I had to give them more descriptive color names than "green," I would start with: Granny Smith apple green, Chico's color name Glowstick, avocado, lime (I know we usually think of lime as ICE but it's what I would call that color).

 

 

You might think that the top that is second to the last looks... well... kind of blue-ish in this array of green tops?

 

So I took a picture of that specific top with more of the truly yellow-based greens in my closet: the Glowstick from Chico's and the Granny Smith apple green....

 

 

So, the reason that I'm doing this is to highlight what I'm thinking... and that is "relationships." The reason that the top looks more "blue" green is just that it isn't quite as "yellow" green as the others. But, is it really and truly blue green, or does its relationship to the yellow green make it appear to be blue green?

 

I took what I know, for a fact, to be a blue green out of my ICE-y DH's closet. And here you go:

 

 

So, in relation to a real blue-green... the top transforms into something quite a bit different, wouldn't you say as well? In looking at the second picture, there is a harmony to the picture because... well...I think that we call the relationships a "happy color party." There is just a discordant note that is struck with these two "greens" together: actually it feels like the ICE green just zapped all the energy out of the FIRE green; it appears to have lost its healthy glow and it has taken on an almost ashen kind of cast.

 

Now, admittedly, the green that I have that has the most hints of blue in it.... isn't a strong undertone of that blue. But I think that these pictures do tell a "relationship" story... The silver threads in the neckline detract from the warmth of the top. CJW used this top to help with his analysis of my season, and it was one of the first FIRE tops that I purchased. It makes me laugh a bit, now, because in comparison to some of the braver purchases that I've done... the color feels a bit less clear than I would now purchase.. and like. And I thought it was so BRIGHT when I first bought it! LOL. :eek: And, I will admit to everyone, I didn't even notice the silver threads... or care that they were there!

Edited September 8, 2011 by Member123