Costa Concordia SINKING

[Beachgal528]

none of thos "who" nonsence is going to bring back the 11+ dead.

 

omg... what are you talking about? Nobody said anything about that.... only about placing blame where it is due... thats with Costa not Carnival. Quit trying to start something

[lm8838]

I suspect there are some professional public relations users on here for spin control and to twist peoples preception of the facts.

[Seago2]

Once again, Cruisecritic is proving to be THE source for information on this tragedy. I am in the US and I wake to all of the info you Europeans have posted. Thank you especially for posting the links to what you are reporting. BBC, CNN, SkyNews are not reporting everything as this tragedy wears on. Thank you also to CC for keeping this thread open.

[dmwnc1959]

Carnival shares dropped by nearly 14 per cent yesterday on the stock market, if market traders are making the connection, I think we can safely assume it too

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g8KLA8mnoCzyVl4YHF2RmJaeHwLg?docId=CNG.ed784ce4307c6bac0da5db5c3f1de385.c1

 

Just because Wall Street or some investors 'make a connection' and panic sell their stock doesn't mean they made and intelligent or correct connection. Wall Street is known to make mistakes and stocks rise and fall all the time. In six months this will all be behind them and their stocks will have recovered. The loss of life and ship are truly unfortunate, but for the cruise line industry and Carnival Corp (and its subsidiaries Carnival Cruise Lines and Costa Cruises) this is a bump in the road. True investors and stock holders won't even flinch.

[Michigan Cookies]

I've just read the most recent postings on this (very long) thread, so perhaps this has been thoroughly discussed . . . my understanding (from the business section of the New York Times) is that if the fault is entirely the captain's then the cruise line and it's holding company can not be sued, as they caused no injury. Hence, their rush to condemn the captain. This latest news then, that the Concordia sailed this same shore-hugging route some months ago, should be very damaging to the claim that all is the fault of the 'hotdog' captain.

I do agree with others who have commented that all of us cruisers will be more alert and aware aboard ship; I hope that cruise lines will rethink their own policies and practices. On our Crystal cruise we reported to our muster stations with our life jackets on and met the crew responsible for us; on the two Celebrity cruises we sailed (one on the mega Solstice) we reported to lounges w/o lifejackets and just milled around. On those two cruises the emergency drills seemed so casual as to be just an annoyance to our fun.

[guernseyguy]

Looks like the conversation between the Coast Guard and the Captain has entered popular culture in Italy.....

[guernseyguy]

This latest news then, that the Concordia sailed this same shore-hugging route some months ago, should be very damaging to the claim that all is the fault of the 'hotdog' captain.

 

Costa says it happened 'once' with the approval of the Coastguard, to coincide with a festival on the island.

 

The Captain says he'd done it 'three or four times'.

 

Time will tell - but given he decided this one after leaving Civitavecchia, it seems unlikely it was cleared with Genoa...

[dmwnc1959]

This is all simanitics......they are all part of the same holding company.....Carnival Corporation.........

AKK

 

It wouldn't be 'all semantics' if the holding company was called Worldwide Cruises or Cruise Conglomerate' date=' anything that doesn't have the word [i']Carnival[/i] in it. People are ONLY making the connection, and an incorrect connection at that, because the word CARNIVAL is in the parent company's name.

[degarr]

I have seen on this forum comparisons of the action of Capt. Schettino and Capt. Scully. Of course, such comparison is invalid because the circumstances were so different. Capt Scully had acted entirely correctly until the unpredictable bird strike. He had every reason to remain confident in his competence, his skillls and his leadership abilities and he made a brilliant job of retrieving the situation. Capt. Schettino, on the other hand, had acted stupidly before the impact (and on previous occasions) and he would immediately realize that his own failure and lack of competence had caused disaster imperilling his ship and all its crew and passengers. He would also have been aware that his most senior offficers would know that he was the one entirelyto blame for what was happening........so he had lost their respect, lost all confidence in himself, his capacity to act decisively and his exercise of good judgement was damaged beyond repair.

 

I have never served in a military situation but my reading informs me that, in such military contexts, commanders are trained so that if they realise that, for whatever reason, they have lost the capacity to exercise command they should immediately relinquish that command and assign it to the next most senior officer, or perhaps to the most senior officer best able to deal with the situation. If Capt Schettino had acted in this way it is quite possible that the ship could have beeen evacuated before it was beached on the rocks on its side. More than an hour was lost when the ship was upright and all lifeboats could have been launched in an orderly manner. The crew are trained to do this and they regularly rehearse lifeboat lowering during port stops. The immediate damage assessment should have confirmed that restoration of power was impossible, the ship could not travel anywhere - but if evacuation had beeen started immediately it is quite posssible that they could all have got ashore without anyone ending in the water. Many serious injuries caused when the ship rotated on to its side would also have been averted.

 

However, I can't help but consider, also, the cultural context that encourages individuals like Schettino to act in this 'bravado' manner despite all their years of training. For example here in the UK the BBC, our national broadcasting station, disgracefully promotes television programmes in which a buffoon called Jeremy Clarkson, together with a couple of sidekicks, constantly drive at high speed in expensive cars, act rashly and stupidly, revel in risk-taking, insult people and foreign cultures and think that they are very clever in doing so. And if the BBC (and the Sunday Times) pays them high fees for all this they consider themselves even more clever. Fortunately, these people are not in a position where they can cause as much damage as Capt Schettino.... but they have damaged/written off expensive vehicles (eg driven them on to a beach to be lost to an incoming tide); injure themselves physically in crashes; caused diplomatic incidents, etc. And guess what, they continue to do more damage, the BBC continues to pay them, some people enjoy watchig their antics. My point here is that this institutionalisation of a bravo, macho, teosterone -fuelled culture affects not everyone of course but especially those individuals whose personality may predispose them to this kind of behaviour. In other words, people like Capt Schettino.

 

I do not say this to excuse his actions.... only in an attempt to understand what has happened! Also, in the hope that those who encourage and promote the kind of attitudes exhibited by Capt Schettino might reflect upon the consequences of their actions.

Well Said

[nellydean]

Just because Wall Street or some investors 'make a connection' and panic sell their stock doesn't mean they made and intelligent or correct connection. Wall Street is known to make mistakes and stocks rise and fall all the time. In six months this will all be behind them and their stocks will have recovered. The loss of life and ship are truly unfortunate, but for the cruise line industry and Carnival Corp (and its subsidiaries Carnival Cruise Lines and Costa Cruises) this is a bump in the road. True investors and stock holders won't even flinch.

 

I didn't say the effect would be lost-lasting, I said that the stock markets were connecting Carnival to Costa, which some are unwilling to acknowledge.

 

I'm sure Carnival WILL recover, but the damage to Costa could be more severe and that, ultimately, affects its parent company as well.

 

Whether the cruise industry in general suffers remains to be seen. It won't put off most regular cruisers, but first-time cruisers might hesitate, hence why the company has been quick to distance itself from the guilty party, the captain.

[guernseyguy]

Here's a link to the Giglio webcam - calm seas today.

[umieesa]

Watching some of the survivor video of the situation inside after hitting the rock is more upsetting since the ship at that point appeared to be in a good position to get everyone safely off since it had only listed slightly. For "fear" of his career, the captain doesn't give orders to abandon ship and thus passengers are waiting for instruction. Sadly, this resulted in unnecessary deaths. Hopefully no more to come. :(

 

As for the discussion about the behaviour of the passengers on the ship and how many of the Italians were pushing...well, like others have said, it does not reflect the character of all. PLUS, that is the one thing I love about travelling...we are able to remove our ignorance, and learn from each other. Here in North America we like order, but everything's very fast paced...while in Europe and other parts of the world it's more relaxed, but maybe not as "orderly". What a great world it could be if we could actually learn from each other. :)

[degarr]

I didn't say the effect would be lost-lasting, I said that the stock markets were connecting Carnival to Costa, which some are unwilling to acknowledge.

 

I'm sure Carnival WILL recover, but the damage to Costa could be more severe and that, ultimately, affects its parent company as well.

 

Whether the cruise industry in general suffers remains to be seen. It won't put off most regular cruisers, but first-time cruisers might hesitate, hence why the company has been quick to distance itself from the guilty party, the captain.

 

OR the PR where the "late rescued" Korean Couple said they want another honeymoon but not on a "cruise tour" were the words I think they used. So what would the Korean Market hear and interpret (not literally but how they feel) from those quotes?

 

I think it will be different markets in different countries and their appetite for risk based on the recent event. My 0.02 on the topic

[Davyjonesrugrat]

I'm sorry if someone has already covered this because as Joanie said, I apparently haven't read the entire thread. Aren't we ASSUMING that the seabead is dead level in the area where the ship is resting?

 

With all due respect, Davy, isn't it also possible that the seabed is NOT FLAT. In other words, maybe the ship is resting on an outcropping of rocks that are on the port side of the vessel causing it to list to starboard. Said another way, isn't it quite possible that the sea is deeper on the starboard side of the ship and as the ship settled it sank deeper into the water on its starboard side ?

 

Haven't the "powers that be" with all the time since this incident started, and with all the dangers of the ship "slipping" into deeper water, made efforts to secure this hull to the mainland or bottom in some way to ensure it can't move ?

 

If you look at the nautical charts it gives you an indication of the

state of the sea bed and whether it is flat or not but it is highly likely that its uneven in places.

 

I would have thought that it would be adventageous to pin the ship to its current location by maybe this might impede further rescue work or salvage work. If I had my way I would be putting mass lines to the shore to stop further movemenber.

[De La Cruise]

As being 100% italian and living here in Rome, i have to admit that this its by far almost true.

Even this behaviour can be accounted to not many people (around 20%) the result its that all italian seems be like that.

 

This its very embarassing for us, i really apologize for what such people doing when they are on a cruise.

 

This it is also one of the reason we like cruise with RCL instead with Italian Company Costa. And its also the reason we like cruise far from Italy.

 

Its very sad for us to say this.

You do not have to apologize. My point is that the demographics and passenger profile will have a bearing on how orderly an evacuation will be. Although not always true, passengers who are better educated and/or have come from a better socio-economic background will be expected to behave better in an evacuation.

 

For instance, you strike me as a gracious person and you are Italian, and you are proof that not all Italians are rude or inconsiderate!

 

Take the issue of greeting fellow passengers in the corridors. It can be expected that this would be more prevalent in ships where the passenger profile is better. Nationality has nothing to do with it.

[Seago2]

Best link of this morning's two-hour-long surfing:

 

http://translate.google.it/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corriere.it%2Fcronache%2F12_gennaio_18%2Fsarzanini-cosi-ha-abbandonato-300-persone_8bd3aae8-419d-11e1-9408-1d8705f8e70e.shtml&sl=it&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

 

The translation is a little rough and you have to know what they are talking about ahead of time..... Basically, the issue now is that Captain Courageous was on the phone with Costa management (and retired Coomandante Palombo, he of Isla de Giglio) for hours before he gave the abandon ship order. It can be extrapolated that Costa Spin Control told him to hold off on the lifeboat launching.

 

I'd like to know why all of the other officers were off the ship. Just a THOUGHT.

[JJSMaine]

It won't put off most regular cruisers, but first-time cruisers might hesitate, hence why the company has been quick to distance itself from the guilty party, the captain.

 

 

I disagree strongly.

 

This incident shows that there are some major issues with how the helm of a Cruise Ship is operated.

 

I will want to see an industry wide reaction to this incident.

 

I want to see Captains ans xeior crew of ALL cruise lines go through life like scenario training. All the experience in the world does no good if when disaster strikes you go "deer in the headlights".

 

I want to see cruise companies train some of their personnel in the same way. The person in charge of my lifeboat should not have only had training when the ship was level and the weather was fine. I want to see training in the pouring rain with the ship moving a bit... with people screaming at them while they try to make decisions.

 

The entire industry has some work to do to satisfy me that they are taking a more serious approach to safety. This incident proves that current training is inadequate for the crew to do a good job.

 

This incident shows how far a captain can go when their head is pumped up full of themselves and we adoring cruisers treat them like movie stars.... next time I meet a captain.. I am going to look him right in the eye and ask him if he ever had to abandon ship.

 

We, the cruising people that have fed this beast, are also responsible for not holding these companies to a higher standard. We likely thought that something like this could happen, but we also thought that with modern communications and systems, it just wasn't possible, not with so many people on the bridge etc etc. .. but it did.

 

As I said in some message way back in the thread.. .there had to have been a corporate culture and a command culture that allowed this to happen... and that must change.

 

A Captain is NOT a downhill skier, but this one certainly took on the role.

 

 

So nice damage control attempt... but I think the reality is many of us will be second guessing the lines we travel and when and if we will.

 

 

 

.and to whit... let this conversation not be filled with excuse makers or other damage control posts. There is no excuse at all for this incident.

 

 

 

Now comes the anger.

[LovesRoughWater]

 

There are only 2 options about this, on both case, on my opinion, the company should also be guilty.

 

1) the company do not know what are doing some capitains (they omiss to check)

2) the company know but did not sent any warning or better a mandatory order (as far as what we know, they didnt and this its even worst of case 1, since they could share the whole responsability).

 

I'm wrong ?

 

Hi Gio, your posts are very helpful.

 

Regards your question please consider this: when you make someone a "Captain", they are the sole and final authority for operation of the vessel, be it a ship, plane, or military device. Necessary because there often is no way to call home for advice. Having Costa watch every minute over your shoulder and call you with orders defeats the concept of Command. If you can't trust your Captain, you need a new Captain.

 

The true problem is that Costa elevated such an undisiplined fool to the position (I wonder whose nephew he is). I hope it's not true of their other Skippers.

 

So, just more to think about Gio, no offense intended. I love reading your information.

[luckybogey]

If you look at the nautical charts it gives you an indication of the state of the sea bed and whether it is flat or not but it is highly likely that its uneven in places.

 

My understanding is that the ship is resting on three large rocks.

 

----------

 

So now we learn that the Captain lied about using the "Greek manoeuvre" and did not drop anchor until after running aground? Did his lawyer lie also?

[gentlemancruiser]

Just because Wall Street or some investors 'make a connection' and panic sell their stock doesn't mean they made and intelligent or correct connection. Wall Street is known to make mistakes and stocks rise and fall all the time. In six months this will all be behind them and their stocks will have recovered. The loss of life and ship are truly unfortunate, but for the cruise line industry and Carnival Corp (and its subsidiaries Carnival Cruise Lines and Costa Cruises) this is a bump in the road. True investors and stock holders won't even flinch.

 

Carnival and Micky Arison are keeping a very safe distance from Costa for very a good reason. There is nothing good that would come from this sitatuion and Carival doesn't want it's name dragged into it further.

 

The Captain as part of this legal defenece may very likely go after Roberto Ferrarini (Costa's Director or Marine operations), whom it's been reported the captain was on the phone with for a most of that first hour. It's also beennoted that at that time there was nothing being done by the Captain Schettino or Roberto Ferrarini to help passengers.

 

Passengers and the family members of the deceased will be filing law suits against Costa.

[Seago2]

I disagree strongly.

 

This incident shows that there are some major issues with how the helm of a Cruise Ship is operated.

 

I will want to see an industry wide reaction to this incident.

 

I want to see Captains ans xeior crew of ALL cruise lines go through life like scenario training. All the experience in the world does no good if when disaster strikes you go "deer in the headlights".

 

I want to see cruise companies train some of their personnel in the same way. The person in charge of my lifeboat should not have only had training when the ship was level and the weather was fine. I want to see training in the pouring rain with the ship moving a bit... with people screaming at them while they try to make decisions.

 

The entire industry has some work to do to satisfy me that they are taking a more serious approach to safety. This incident proves that current training is inadequate for the crew to do a good job.

 

This incident shows how far a captain can go when their head is pumped up full of themselves and we adoring cruisers treat them like movie stars.... next time I meet a captain.. I am going to look him right in the eye and ask him if he ever had to abandon ship.

 

We, the cruising people that have fed this beast, are also responsible for not holding these companies to a higher standard. We likely thought that something like this could happen, but we also thought that with modern communications and systems, it just wasn't possible, not with so many people on the bridge etc etc. .. but it did.

 

As I said in some message way back in the thread.. .there had to have been a corporate culture and a command culture that allowed this to happen... and that must change.

 

A Captain is NOT a downhill skier, but this one certainly took on the role.

 

 

So nice damage control attempt... but I think the reality is many of us will be second guessing the lines we travel and when and if we will.

 

 

 

.and to whit... let this conversation not be filled with excuse makers or other damage control posts. There is no excuse at all for this incident.

 

 

 

Now comes the anger.

 

Agreed on most of this, Jason. I also wonder about a corporate structure that had him in the phone with the Costa Spin Department for hours when he should have been giving the abandon ship order.

[degarr]

I disagree strongly.

 

This incident shows that there are some major issues with how the helm of a Cruise Ship is operated.

 

I will want to see an industry wide reaction to this incident.

 

I want to see Captains ans xeior crew of ALL cruise lines go through life like scenario training. All the experience in the world does no good if when disaster strikes you go "deer in the headlights".

 

I want to see cruise companies train some of their personnel in the same way. The person in charge of my lifeboat should not have only had training when the ship was level and the weather was fine. I want to see training in the pouring rain with the ship moving a bit... with people screaming at them while they try to make decisions.

 

The entire industry has some work to do to satisfy me that they are taking a more serious approach to safety. This incident proves that current training is inadequate for the crew to do a good job.

 

This incident shows how far a captain can go when their head is pumped up full of themselves and we adoring cruisers treat them like movie stars.... next time I meet a captain.. I am going to look him right in the eye and ask him if he ever had to abandon ship.

 

We, the cruising people that have fed this beast, are also responsible for not holding these companies to a higher standard. We likely thought that something like this could happen, but we also thought that with modern communications and systems, it just wasn't possible, not with so many people on the bridge etc etc. .. but it did.

 

As I said in some message way back in the thread.. .there had to have been a corporate culture and a command culture that allowed this to happen... and that must change.

 

A Captain is NOT a downhill skier, but this one certainly took on the role.

 

 

So nice damage control attempt... but I think the reality is many of us will be second guessing the lines we travel and when and if we will.

 

 

 

.and to whit... let this conversation not be filled with excuse makers or other damage control posts. There is no excuse at all for this incident.

 

 

 

Now comes the anger.

Yes I Like all of that

[Clar5]

MSNBC is saying now that theres a fear that the ship could break into two. That would be an absolute disaster not only for the rescue and recovery, but for the wildlife sanctuary and potentially the entire Island of Giglio.

[IRL_Joanie]

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2012/01/18/pop_tragedia.shtml

 

Its show timeline and track of accident and also sea deept

 

Thank You Giorgio!!! This is a GREAT timeline to see, even if in Italian (which I cannot read or speak) which makes it extremely easy to understand!! It even shows the "Charted" rocks that Schettino did not see on his charts.

 

Joanie

[mferris77]

More from the MSNBC article:

 

"NBC News, citing officials involved in the rescue effort, reported that on Wednesday the ship had sunk 1.5 meters (4.9 feet) at the front and 1 meter (3.2 feet) at the back, raising concerns that the vessel may break up in the middle."

 

Also interesting/sad:

 

"The visibility is awful. Yesterday I couldn't see my hand in front of my face," Reuters quotes Giuseppe Minciotti, director of a school for cave divers in the northern city of Verona and part of the specialist team deployed on the wreck, as saying.

"I grabbed a piece of floating debris, and I couldn't see what it was until I had my head out of the water. It was a woman's shoe," he said. "We're waiting today for new openings to be made, and we'll see if the visibility is any better in those points."