Concordia News: Please Post Here

[watertheodds]

You are assuming that the sole responsibility for your own personal safety rests with you, this is not so. Of course we should all look after ourselves in any situation but the providers of public transport have a responsibility to provide as safe a system as possible. You obviously think they are, I and others think not. We must agree to differ.

 

If you board an aeroplane that is not safe to fly and it falls out of the sky no amount of looking around will prevent that happening.

 

And it is worth remembering that the worst colour for highlighting on boards such as this is red. Simple underlining or caps would be kinder.

 

David.

 

I am happy to acknowledge that there are different ways to view things and agree to differ - but don't change my words - you say that I assume sole responsibility for my own safety rests with me when I clearly stated that people should take SOME responsibility for their own safety. Yes, you are right that I cannot keep an airplane from falling out of the sky by knowing where the exits are thus my comment that living life is risky. Every large corporation that provides services to the public have safety plans in place and people that are supposedly trained to implement them insuring there are many layers of safeguards for an accident to get past - if not they could not even get the basics required to conduct business, such as liability, property and other forms of insurance.

[Ken711]

Could have moved off due to the poor weather.

 

Looks that way.

[CostaSmurfette]

A pax on a ship (ferry or cruise) can do a personal risk assessment by checking the evacuation route(s), checking/practicing lifejacket condition/wearing and FEEL that they will be OK in an emergency.

 

The crew around you can be trained to the highest levels, they can be drilled countless times and know the ship that they are sailing aboard like the back of their hands.

 

BUT....

 

Nobody...NOBODY....knows what any of us will be like in a REAL emergency. You hope that everyone will be able to cope with everything that is thrown at you in an emergency situation, that we will all keep a calm head and that all that personal risk assessment and practice will work faultlessly and we will all get off that ship fit and well.

 

All the personal risk assessment and all the training in the world won't save your life if the fear consumes you....the question that you have to ask is not whether you know where the evacuation route(s) are but can we control that fear which will try to overtake all senses, all logical thinking and all that training and checking and practice.

 

If the answer is "I don't know"...or "I hope so"....then you could be in trouble along with anyone around you.

 

Even seasoned professionals get scared...it is down to how you handle that fear that will ultimately decide if you live or die.

 

Schettino made a few errors of judgement that night, but his downfall came not only as a result of those errors but the fact that he could not control his fear. His fear consumed him....and all the training in the world would not have prepared him or those around him for those perfectly natural emotions.

 

He didn't keep a calm head, he was paralysed with fear...and there by the grace of God go every single one of us cos until we experience something like that night ourselves, no-one can ever foretell how they would react in that situation.

 

Which is where psychological checks would help in the choices of senior officers and crew.....being qualified is only half the job, they must be able to conquer that fear in all situations otherwise, like Schettino, those officers and crew are about as much use as a chocolate frog sat on a hot radiator....they are useless to their crew and the pax.

[MDSue]

That stems from the union mentality of the worker VS management and collective bargaining work rules that make it next to impossible to fire a bad employee until after they've been convicted of a crime. It's not just cops, it's most government workers. I think we got most of these ideas from Socialist Europe. :rolleyes:

 

I'd just like to say that as a hard-working government worker who also happens to be a union worker (we have no choice in this matter) that we are not all of what is wrong with the world. It gets a little old getting blamed for a whole host of issues that we have nothing to do with, including the financial meltdown of the economy (or the sinking of the Concordia).

 

I realize that some collective bargaining rules make it hard to fire bad apples, but they also prevent greedy bosses from firing older, experienced employees so they can hire cheaper, young employees and a host of other misdeeds that employers choose in order to put more money in their pockets at the expense of the average worker.

 

If people would think before they bash public workers, they might realize that we are human beings, neighbors, and friends. We are the ones that rush in to save lives, and protect the public when they need help, and build technology that keeps us as the number one country instead of a third world nation. We don't ask for much in return, but in today's world we are treated as if we should work for minimum wage and live in cardboard shacks.

 

I've really enjoyed keeping up with everyone's opinions and information about the Concordia disaster, but I am so tired of the union-bashing sentiment that plagues this world.

 

Sorry, off my soapbox now- Just wish the bashing would stop. Once upon a time, people appreciated our contributions to our country.

[sidari]

Unions are the only difference that stops employers hiring slaves on slave wages!

 

Uni ..... the ship is the MSC Poesia which scored 100% in St Thomas on its U S Coastguard Inspection

Edited November 28, 2012 by sidari

[Uniall]

I'd just like to say that as a hard-working government worker who also happens to be a union worker (we have no choice in this matter) that we are not all of what is wrong with the world. It gets a little old getting blamed for a whole host of issues that we have nothing to do with, including the financial meltdown of the economy (or the sinking of the Concordia).

 

I realize that some collective bargaining rules make it hard to fire bad apples, but they also prevent greedy bosses from firing older, experienced employees so they can hire cheaper, young employees and a host of other misdeeds that employers choose in order to put more money in their pockets at the expense of the average worker.

 

If people would think before they bash public workers, they might realize that we are human beings, neighbors, and friends. We are the ones that rush in to save lives, and protect the public when they need help, and build technology that keeps us as the number one country instead of a third world nation. We don't ask for much in return, but in today's world we are treated as if we should work for minimum wage and live in cardboard shacks.

 

I've really enjoyed keeping up with everyone's opinions and information about the Concordia disaster, but I am so tired of the union-bashing sentiment that plagues this world.

 

Sorry, off my soapbox now- Just wish the bashing would stop. Once upon a time, people appreciated our contributions to our country.

 

Considering I'm a retired government worker and began my working career as a union boilermaker, I'm not inherently anti union. But, in the last 25 years, the American Union has adopted the European Socialist Class warfare model. My wife, Sharon, is a retired educator who walked the pricket line 30 years ago fo smaller class size. A friend of hers recently took an early redtirement as general counsel for the teachers' union because he refused to denfend and protect the tenure and job of pediphile teachers.

 

Sharon and I were once a proud union members but now despise the socialist mentality they have adopted and their motivation of greed and corruption.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Uniall

[Max49]

Well for one thing, you can start by weeding out skirt chasers. Once you spot a "hound" you know where his priorties will probably be and whether his profession or hormones will take up the bulk of his time and attention.:eek:

 

:rolleyes:

 

Another hint might be when a captain takes off from port in a storm, or after he was disciplined for speeding into port. Another hint may be when he he knocked a hole in the front of the Concordia when he crashed into the dock.

[CostaSmurfette]

Another hint might be when a captain takes off from port in a storm, or after he was disciplined for speeding into port. Another hint may be when he he knocked a hole in the front of the Concordia when he crashed into the dock.

 

I believe that you'll find that it was a different captain that caught Concordia's snout in Palermo in 2008...and it was before Schettino had reached captaincy level too.

 

Schettino was safety officer aboard the ship that I was aboard at the time, Costa Allegra, that was running out of Hong Kong.

 

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20081123/local/cruise-liner-damaged-after-leaving-malta.234247

[balf]

Considering I'm a retired government worker and began my working career as a union boilermaker, I'm not inherently anti union. But, in the last 25 years, the American Union has adopted the European Socialist Class warfare model. My wife, Sharon, is a retired educator who walked the pricket line 30 years ago fo smaller class size. A friend of hers recently took an early redtirement as general counsel for the teachers' union because he refused to denfend and protect the tenure and job of pediphile teachers.

 

Sharon and I were once a proud union members but now despise the socialist mentality they have adopted and their motivation of greed and corruption.

 

I take it you are not an Obama man then.

 

David

[Uniall]

I take it you are not an Obama man then.

 

David

 

That's true but the two are not causally interrelated. The American labor movement had two diametrically opposed and competing philosophies for 75 years:

The CIO: based upon the theories of Eugene Debs, a 19th century socialist who bought into the class warfare theories of Marx and Engels.

The AFL: based upon the theories of Samuel Gompers a 19th century believer in the theories of individual craftsman Guilds.

Both my wife and I were active members and/or supporters of unions that followed the AFL craft (Trade: Boilermakers, Shipbuilders & Blacksmiths & Profession: Teacher) model until a seismic shift in the 1990s when the socialist CIO overwhelmed the indvidualist AFL.

 

The casual observer might ask, what has this to do with the Concordia disaster? The answer is "a lot". The work and job protection rules promolgated by CIO socialist in the US are the same rules adopted by socialist Italy that are the basis of the recent news that Captain Coward was improperly dismissed from his job.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Uniall

[Ken711]

The Micoperi 30 platform is back.

[cruiserfanfromct]

NEW -- Schettino interview by Canada's 5th Estate -- Tonight at 9pm

 

Here's a preview:

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/06/captain-fifth-estate.html?cmp=rss

 

Not sure we'll be able to access this from the US, UK or Australia -- would our Canadian friends please update us on this if possible?

[Uniall]

NEW -- Schettino interview by Canada's 5th Estate -- Tonight at 9pm

 

Here's a preview:

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/06/captain-fifth-estate.html?cmp=rss

 

Not sure we'll be able to access this from the US, UK or Australia -- would our Canadian friends please update us on this if possible?

 

Wow, this guy might get off with an insanity defense. He is absolutely delusional. The prosucutors better start preparing an argument that he's not nuts just an egomanical sociopath who is never wrong and it's always somebody else who is a fault.

[sidari]

The fifth estate reports 'black box' evidence appears to support captain's story

 

 

Surely the Media are Always Right ... :eek:

[balf]

Wow, this guy might get off with an insanity defense. He is absolutely delusional. The prosucutors better start preparing an argument that he's not nuts just an egomanical sociopath who is never wrong and it's always somebody else who is a fault.

 

Well Uni there have been many cases in the UK where accused were universally thought to be guilty in the end walked free. I know the UK is not USA but I am sure there have been similar there. And of course Italy is different again.

 

If he is correct, and the black box backs up his defence things are not quite so cut and dried as they were.

 

David.

[clive and anne]

Hi Everyone.

Back from my 8 weeks in Spain and trying to catch up with whats been happening while I've been away.

Is the cargo on the barge at the bow likely to be the "Caissons" which will be attached to the port side ?

Do we have an estimated date as to when the parbuckle will take place ?

I presume that most of the recent work will be the underwater platform being erected.

Pity they never turned the port camera to the wreck after the summer season.

 

Clive

[Uniall]

Well Uni there have been many cases in the UK where accused were universally thought to be guilty in the end walked free. I know the UK is not USA but I am sure there have been similar there. And of course Italy is different again.

 

If he is correct, and the black box backs up his defence things are not quite so cut and dried as they were.

 

David.

 

 

I've maintained from the beginning that ordering the ship in close to shore for a salute is gross negligence (in and of itself), exacerbated by leaving the bridge to wine and dine a paramour. I've also maintained that he abandoned his post and left crew and passengers to their own fate. None of that is changed by the black box data. He's still guilty and meglo maniac and sociopath as well.

 

John

Edited December 8, 2012 by Uniall

[sidari]

Uni ... The course he says he set was 0.5 mile from the coast which in itself is not dangerous and previous evidence is available to prove that case ie previous sailbys.

 

Not being on duty ie a 4 hour shift the Captain of any vessel is entitled to leave the bridge and have dinner with whom he chooses, that is the reason they have a Staff Captain and other officers as you well know.

 

The part that so far has not been confirmed by anyone else is whether Captain Schettino did in fact trip,fall or slide from the boat deck of the Concordia due to its inclined state as i believe some passengers did.

 

Whether he could have got back onto the ship only he knows the answer and the reason why he did not do! one thing for certain is that to be able to climb from the boat deck which was touching water to the Port side would have taken ropes or a rope ladder.

 

The above is not a defence for what happened but for those who think logically you can understand what he is saying, but then again there is no proof as yet that it is not made up of course.

[Uniall]

Uni ... The course he says he set was 0.5 mile from the coast which in itself is not dangerous and previous evidence is available to prove that case ie previous sailbys.

 

Not being on duty ie a 4 hour shift the Captain of any vessel is entitled to leave the bridge and have dinner with whom he chooses, that is the reason they have a Staff Captain and other officers as you well know.

 

The part that so far has not been confirmed by anyone else is whether Captain Schettino did in fact trip,fall or slide from the boat deck of the Concordia due to its inclined state as i believe some passengers did.

 

Whether he could have got back onto the ship only he knows the answer and the reason why he did not do! one thing for certain is that to be able to climb from the boat deck which was touching water to the Port side would have taken ropes or a rope ladder.

 

The above is not a defence for what happened but for those who think logically you can understand what he is saying, but then again there is no proof as yet that it is not made up of course.

 

You and I have been round and round on this and will never agree.

 

I know from personal experience that triers of fact (judge and or jury) always adopt the simplist and most common place explanation as the truth. Any tier of fact will conclude Captain Coward abandoned the ship, crew and passenger over his assertion that he fell into a lifeboat, especially with his refusal to reboard after ordered to do so by the coast guard.

 

As to the half mile salute, I know the tier of fact will most probably conclude that the salute was an inherently dangerous act regardless that it had been done previously without incident. In fact, if (as alleged) Costa knew it had been done (most likely true) they will be held liable for not banning it and Captain Coward held liable for ordering it.

 

I base my opinions on 40 years of courtroom trial experience and a learned knowledge of how the trier(s) of fact reaches its conclusions.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Uniall

[sidari]

Uni .... I am guessing that you base your fact on American Law and not that of Italy, maybe you tell us how many people you have either prosecuted or defended in Italy ?

 

You ascertain that half a mile from shore is in your eyes a dangerous place to be despite not being a mariner nor having comanded a ship of any size, it is quite clear that the distance quoted is not unusual in this case and that the depth of any underwater obstruction at that distance would in no way impede a ship.

 

Nowhere in the conversation with the Coastguard did Captain Schettino Refuse to reboard the Concordia despite your claim although Schettino did claim that he was sat on the rock close to the Concordia which is somewhat odd seeing as he also says he slipped,tripped or fell into a lifeboat.

 

The Coastguard made a statement to Schettino and told him to "get back onboard and tell me how many Men,Women and children are still there" maybe you could explain how he was supposed to give that information without knowing how many had been taken off ?

[Uniall]

Uni .... I am guessing that you base your fact on American Law and not that of Italy, maybe you tell us how many people you have either prosecuted or defended in Italy ?

 

You ascertain that half a mile from shore is in your eyes a dangerous place to be despite not being a mariner nor having comanded a ship of any size, it is quite clear that the distance quoted is not unusual in this case and that the depth of any underwater obstruction at that distance would in no way impede a ship.

 

Nowhere in the conversation with the Coastguard did Captain Schettino Refuse to reboard the Concordia despite your claim although Schettino did claim that he was sat on the rock close to the Concordia which is somewhat odd seeing as he also says he slipped,tripped or fell into a lifeboat.

 

The Coastguard made a statement to Schettino and told him to "get back onboard and tell me how many Men,Women and children are still there" maybe you could explain how he was supposed to give that information without knowing how many had been taken off ?

 

You just don't get it and never will. Go to law school and get a hundred trials under your belt and then you will be qualified to discuss the issues. Attoneys' trial techniques and the mental process of the finder of fact are the same in any western culture. They reach their conclusions based upon their every day experiences and daily knowledge of human nature not some theoretical class room instruction of the law.

 

I"m tired of debating this with you ad nauseum. As one final example (and then I'm done discussing legal issues with you) the finder of fact will conclude the Cap Coward affirmed his abandonment of the ship with his failure to respond to the coast guard's order to return. It's called "silent affirmation" and is one of the universal principals that pervades the trier of facts psyche.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Uniall

[Max49]

"Not being on duty ie a 4 hour shift the Captain of any vessel is entitled to leave the bridge and have dinner with whom he chooses, that is the reason they have a Staff Captain and other officers as you well know."

 

 

 

So I assume he is saying he ordered the ship in close to Giglio and the rocks while he wined and dined his dancer friend. If he's off duty does he still have the power to order his staff captain to go off course into a possible precarious situation?

 

"When he arrived on the bridge to command the salute, however, he said the ship wasn't on the course he had ordered. As he took control and turned the ship, he saw foam and realized he was in shallow water. The Costa Concordia had in fact been heading at full speed toward rocks."

 

Should'nt he know where the ship is before he takes control or pretty damn quick any way if he ordered a dangerous sail by and how long was he at the controls before he hit the rocks? He's making it sound like as soon as he took control he knew the ship was in trouble and tried to avoid it (like the hero he thinks he is)

I should know this but , how long was he at the cons before he hit the rocks. I think this should be important if he's trying to blame some one else for this.

[orangearmy]

Just watched the Captain's story on the 5th Estate. Although I believe he is guilty of something he did make some points which were interesting. He pointed out that ships had come as close as .12 nautical miles to the island in the past. So his .5 mile pass would have been fine according to him. Also he ordered a turn to starboard & his helmsman turned to port. He realized the error and turned back to starboard but it was to late. (The Black Box confirms this happened.) He did not want to order lifeboats being used till the ship had drifted into shallower water so thus the delay in deploying them. He has said he steered the ship into shallow water but that point is under debate as the ship had no power! As for his lifeboat story he maintains he was on the starboard side helping evacuate passengers till the ship's list became such that evacuation was impossible. He never addressed falling into a lifeboat but says he was on the roof of his lifeboat helping the crewman steering it get out from under the listing ship. He feels he is not guilty of a crime as the sinking was an accident!!

[Max49]

It would be refreshing to hear from just one, as in 1 passenger that said Schettino helped him or her.

 

" He never addressed falling into a lifeboat but says he was on the roof of his lifeboat helping the crewman steering it get out from under the listing ship." quote

 

Now that sounds like Schettino, saving his own butt. He's quite a character. I think he's reading the contradicting and confusing news reports and his lawyer is teaching him what happened that night.

Maybe the only crime was Costa entrusting the ship, crew and passengers to an incompetent, arrogant, daredevil, pompous man to be "captain" of the ship.

It's odd that Schettino is the only one talking. Will we ever hear what the other crew members have to say?

[orangearmy]

I should have mentioned that some of the lifeboat crew have confirmed that he was on the top of the lifeboat directing it away from the listing ship. Also it was pointed out that his exchange with the Coast Guard commander from Livorno accorded at 1:42 a.m. & he had been in contact with the Coast Guard before the infamous exchange. Also by 1:42 it would have been almost impossible for him to get back on the ship due to it having tipped. That said an official from Gigilo Isalnd (2nd in authority to the Mayor) got on board the Concordia & failed to find any of the Senior officers. He assited with evacuations and was one of the last to leave the ship.