Concordia News: Please Post Here

[SomeBeach]

The storm last week tossed up something from the seas. A passengers piece of luggage came to shore on Elba, an island north of Giglio.

The following link has video with it. Course unless you speak the language, it's a little hard to understand. ;) The video is still interesting to watch.

http://www.giglionews.it/2012110759185/news/isola-del-giglio/una-valigia-della-concordia-ritrovata-allelba.html#addcomments

Edited November 8, 2012 by SomeBeach

[SomeBeach]

The storm last week that stopped work around Concordia turned up something on Elba, an island north of Giglio. A passengers suitcase has been found.

The link has a video with it. Unless you speak Italian, you won't understand the words but it's worth watching.

http://www.giglionews.it/2012110759185/news/isola-del-giglio/una-valigia-della-concordia-ritrovata-allelba.html#addcomments

[Ken711]

A portal dedicated to the removal of the Costa Concordia sank before the waters of the island of Giglio to follow in real time one of the more important and crucial of the entire project: the Parbuckling, or the rotation of the wreck in the vertical position, before the final rigalleggiamento. From today 'visible online at http://www.theparbucklingproject.com , the new website describing the project to the wreck Concordia. The site, in Italian and English versions, the intention of the Consortium of companies Titan - Micoperi and Costa Crociere who made ​​it, it can become an important point of reference for all national and international media, but also for those interested in better understanding the project and the technical aspects of removal. Browsing the site you will have access to project information, videos and photographs, multimedia materials available and some thematic analysis, as well as the profiles of the companies involved, the project partners, bodies and authorities.

 

http://www.theparbucklingproject.com/

[MorganMars]

www.theparbucklingproject.com

 

This is a new website that provides information about the salvage of the Costa Concordia.

[SomeBeach]

http://www.theparbucklingproject.com/

 

I saw the article this morning too. Looks like it will be a quick and understandable way to keep up with the news.

[Ken711]

I saw the article this morning too. Looks like it will be a quick and understandable way to keep up with the news.

 

From that website, first look at the platforms the ship will rotate onto:

 

 

[sidari]

Ken ... Looks like the yards have been very busy getting them built in a short space of time ... thanks for the pics.

[CostaSmurfette]

I want to know when the depth sounder failed.....was it before or after leaving Barcelona on the ill fated cruise?

 

I want to know if ships (all ships, not just pax ships) have a minimum equipment list in regard to such items as fully functioning radar, depth sounders etc...a case of sail/no-sail (identical to that already in place with pax aircraft, fly/no-fly list or MEL that can ground an airliner if any of a set number of vital equipment is unserviceable).

 

I want to know if the phone call PRIOR to the course change was from Palombo on Giglio...if so...potentially a conversation could be :

 

Palombo : "so...are you coming over tonight?"

Schettino : "we have no depth sounder, I am not sure it is such a good idea"

Palombo : "don't be silly, its a calm, clear night, what could go wrong?"

Schettino : " oh...I do not know...I am not comfortable with it, the ship is not right..."

Palombo : " oh for goodness sakes, don't be such a wimp...bring the ship over, you know how much pull I have with the boss, it would be good karma for you to come see your mentor"

Schettino : "hmmm...OK...but I am not happy about it"

Palombo : "look...if anything happens, I'll be right behind you...now will you come?"

Schettino : "OK...I'll do it...but I am not happy about it...see you later"

 

I want to know how much pull Palombo had on present captains, in view that he trained so many of them and apparently turned a blind eye to anything remotely questionable and seemed to place pressure on anyone who wasn't happy to go along with his requests...this I know happened after discussions with crew, a case of "do it and your future will be bright".

 

I want to know why glass elevators that were designed for use on buildings ever got certification for use on ships when they have no means of escape in a listing event, were they even tested for such events?

 

I want to know why cruise ship designers & builders insist of cutting stem to stern pax/crew access over several decks by placing galleys and other inaccessable areas within public areas of the ship...thus cutting escape routes and adding confusion in a panicked situation such as a listing event.

 

I want to know why watertight doors close horizontally when it is well known that they relax during power outtages and can let water egress occur under slight water pressure.

 

I want to know why so much money is spent on making the ship visually "pretty" to pax and such little attention is paid on basic evacuation routing and facilities. (I believe that as with Titanic, the cruise industry never believed that there would ever be a large ship loss and as such, no forward planning was built into ship design...it was a case of bigger is better, the more glitz and neon the better and don't worry about accidents cos they will never happen.)

 

I want to know why there was an apparent lack of bridge resource management...why did no-one question the actions or instructions being given during the run up to the course change and after the event....especially since it was known that the ship was not 100% fully functional.

 

Finally....if nothing was wrong with the ship and it was all down to human error...why was there a full repair crew waiting for the ship in Savona who were to board and complete an array of critical equipment repairs during that day and during the next cruise?

 

To me, looking at the technical aspects, the throwing under the bus less than 24 hours after the event appears to have come from Miami and not Genova. It was a cynical way of diverting attention from several issues surrounding the ship that would have inevitable knock-on effects to the rest of the ships of that design/build and potentially every large cruise ship across the industry. It is always easier to blame the human.....Schettino and others DID make errors, they DID react badly and they certainly could/should have done better...BUT...the ship's own participation needs closer scrutiny and so far, it is not getting that scrutiny...and they only reason for that is money...if the ship is bad, it will cost billions to put right the issues on the rest of the ships like her.

[Max49]

Palombo was not even on the island nor the ship so when did this concoction conversation happen?

 

"

 

Schettino would later tell investigators that he had intended to salute a great old man: Mario Palombo, a retired captain. Palombo was at sea for 43 years, including 23 years with Costa. Schettino served as a first officer under Palombo. And Palombo has a house on Giglio.

 

While the ship was bearing on the island, Schettino called Palombo on his mobile phone. He allegedly told him to look outside and that they would shortly be sailing past his island. "We'll sound the siren for you," he said.

 

Italian mariners refer to this greeting from a passing ship as a "bow." This would be the last bow from on board the Concordia. Palombo had apparently just called back to say that he wasn't on Giglio at the moment, but on the mainland, when the ship ran aground and the connection was lost. It was 9:45 p.m., and at that moment, about 50 meters below the bridge, a rock was tearing a massive hole into the left side of the Concordia. The hole was about 70 meters long, and hundreds of tons of water began pouring into the ship.

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-doomed-costa-concordia-a-maritime-disaster-that-was-waiting-to-happen-a-810761-2.html

 

You want to know lots of stuff:D

Edited November 11, 2012 by Max49

[mickey_d_mouse]

Damn its not mine...............

 

 

The storm last week tossed up something from the seas. A passengers piece of luggage came to shore on Elba, an island north of Giglio.

 

The following link has video with it. Course unless you speak the language, it's a little hard to understand. ;) The video is still interesting to watch.

 

http://www.giglionews.it/2012110759185/news/isola-del-giglio/una-valigia-della-concordia-ritrovata-allelba.html#addcomments

[Vampire Parrot]

I'm not going to directly answer all of CostaSMurfette's questions but I would like to make a few points that some people may find informative.

 

Ships do have a MEL. However something failing after you sail which means you no longer meet the MEL does not necessarily mean you must return immediately to port.

 

The same principal applies to aircraft. For example if you are in a 747-400 flying from say San Francisco to London Heathrow and an engine fails one hour into the flight, it is still safe and legal to carry on to London. You still have more redundency that you would if you were flying a fully-functional 767.

 

All elevators on board ships are designed for ships, not for buildings.

 

All passenger areas on a modern ship have at least two seperate well signposted/highly visible exit routes They may involve going through doors marked "for emergency use only".

 

Horizontally closing watertight doors do not let significant amounts of water through once they are closed.

 

If you want to read an example of really poor bridge resource management, go to the maib website at www dot maib dot gov dot uk, search for K wave and read the report.

 

VP

[CostaSmurfette]

I'm not going to directly answer all of CostaSMurfette's questions but I would like to make a few points that some people may find informative.

 

Ships do have a MEL. However something failing after you sail which means you no longer meet the MEL does not necessarily mean you must return immediately to port.

 

The same principal applies to aircraft. For example if you are in a 747-400 flying from say San Francisco to London Heathrow and an engine fails one hour into the flight, it is still safe and legal to carry on to London. You still have more redundency that you would if you were flying a fully-functional 767.

 

All elevators on board ships are designed for ships, not for buildings.

 

All passenger areas on a modern ship have at least two seperate well signposted/highly visible exit routes They may involve going through doors marked "for emergency use only".

 

Horizontally closing watertight doors do not let significant amounts of water through once they are closed.

 

If you want to read an example of really poor bridge resource management, go to the maib website at www dot maib dot gov dot uk, search for K wave and read the report.

 

VP

 

Thank you VP.

 

In relation to the MEL....since no-one as yet knows when the depth sounder failed along with other equipment that was not 100% functional, would the authorities in Barcelona or Civitavecchia be held accountable for the MEL not being complete and thus it would be their responsibility to hold the ship in port til repairs had been made - assuming that the depth sounder (at least) was not functioning?

 

The airline MEL would ground a plane if the CVR and/or the FDR were not functioning 100% (this was the case of the Spanair MD80 a few years back, it was fixed but the plane then went on to crash on take-off anyway). So aside from the already unserviceable depth sounder - which is safety related and thus should be in the MEL - having the BVR/BDR not fully functional, or at least intermittantly faulty as in the case of Concordia, that surely should also impede the MEL?

 

If the depth sounder IS included in the MEL, could the operator (in this case Costa Crociere) make some form of guarantee to repair at another port in order for the ship to sail....ie, the fact that the repair crew were waiting at Savona for the 14 January arrival, would that have allowed the ship to sail with an incomplete MEL?

 

In relation to the signage for escape routes....as much as I would agree that there is generally ample signage around the ship, it isn't always large or noticeable, especially in areas that would normally be for crew access use only. And in the half light of emergency power settings, signage is not always illuminated and in many cases the signage itself is frequently the same colour as the door or wall that it is attached to...ie...tan coloured walls or door with crean coloured signage. Would you agree that improvements could be made in making the signage clearer, especially on decks that are cut by galleys etc and even more especially where foreign languages are the standard have the signage easier to comprehend?

[Uniall]

A New Investigation Tool has been discovered.

 

It will be used by the Italian Judiciary to reveal the truth in the Corcordia case.

 

Click On Photo To Enlarge

[CostaSmurfette]

Vampire Parrot.....

 

Maybe you can clarify something, please.

 

If there is a known problem with equipment that is a part of the MEL, is the cruise line or crew legally obliged to notify the port authorities of that problem or not?

 

Or is it a case that the crew can notify the cruise line who then arrange for suitable repairs to be carried out at a later date, or if significant enough, repairs at the next available port?

 

Reason for asking is if these equipment failures were known about after leaving Savona, Marseille, Barcelona and/or Civitaveccia and the port authority(ies) had been informed, would that place some level of responsibility onto those port authorities for not placing a "no sail" order on Concordia....and thus a percentage of blame, albeit relatively small, for what happened?

 

According to the Paris-MoU website, Concordia was last inspected in Valletta on April 15, 2011 and no deficiencies were found. Her two previous inspections in Lisbon and Rhodes also were clean sheets - as you would expect for a ship of her age.

 

The inspection in Valletta covered :

 

Inspected Areas

 

Accommodation and galley

Engine room

Navigation bridge

Outside decks and forecastle

Passenger spaces

Steering room

 

http://www.parismou.org/inspection_efforts/inspections/inspection_database_search/

 

That sort of narrows down when the failures of equipment happened to just over 8 months, she was due another inspection in late March/early April 2012 had she not foundered. Obviously things break down on a regular basis and it can happen at any time, I am just enquiring as to whether or not there is any obligation to report deficiencies or defects in the MEL to port authorities....and if not....do you think there should be an obligation to notify at least the next port of call in the event of an en-route failure?

[Max49]

What ship problems do you suspect there may have been to make it get a 160' gash and sink it? If the Capt would have stayed on course it would not have crashed into the rocks causing it to sink. If the depth sounder was not working, the concordia would have been just fine if the captain stayed on the approved course.

If the depth sounder was not working, and since the ship cost a half billion dollars and a depth sounder cost about $100, I would imagine they had at least 12 back ups. However,even if all back up depth detectors failed ; and the captain still decided to go well off the programmed course to do his fly by of Giglio, do you think the captain should get even extra time in prison for jeopardizing 4000 lives with a defective ship? If you are right about the defective ship and capt arrogant still wanted to show off with it , he deserves even more punishment. Even a lowly truck driver is responsible to know his truck is safe to operate on public roads.

Can you please post links to all these safety hazards that you say the Concordia had? I have not seen them.

Or do you just like Captain Schettino and want to put the blame on someone else?

[Uniall]

What ship problems do you suspect there may have been to make it get a 160' gash and sink it? If the Capt would have stayed on course it would not have crashed into the rocks causing it to sink. If the depth sounder was not working, the concordia would have been just fine if the captain stayed on the approved course.

If the depth sounder was not working, and since the ship cost a half billion dollars and a depth sounder cost about $100, I would imagine they had at least 12 back ups. However,even if all back up depth detectors failed ; and the captain still decided to go well off the programmed course to do his fly by of Giglio, do you think the captain should get even extra time in prison for jeopardizing 4000 lives with a defective ship? If you are right about the defective ship and capt arrogant still wanted to show off with it , he deserves even more punishment. Even a lowly truck driver is responsible to know his truck is safe to operate on public roads.

Can you please post links to all these safety hazards that you say the Concordia had? I have not seen them.

Or do you just like Captain Schettino and want to put the blame on someone else?

 

Max

 

Stop being such a cynic. We've already been given a partial verbatim transcript of the events that night and, probably, will be give more in the future.

 

So, just sit back, relax, pour youself a cold one (not at room temperature, UK style, it could send you to fantasy land) :D

Palombo : "so...are you coming over tonight?"

Schettino : "we have no depth sounder, I am not sure it is such a good idea"

Palombo : "don't be silly, its a calm, clear night, what could go wrong?"

Schettino : " oh...I do not know...I am not comfortable with it, the ship is not right..."

Palombo : " oh for goodness sakes, don't be such a wimp...bring the ship over, you know how much pull I have with the boss, it would be good karma for you to come see your mentor"

Schettino : "hmmm...OK...but I am not happy about it"

Palombo : "look...if anything happens, I'll be right behind you...now will you come?"

Schettino : "OK...I'll do it...but I am not happy about it...see you later" :eek:

Edited November 13, 2012 by Uniall

[SomeBeach]

Damn its not mine...............

 

I thought of you when I heard the news.

How are you doing now?

[SomeBeach]

From Giglio News

 

November 14 to 15, "lesson learned ON COSTA CONCORDIA EMERGENCY"

 

A discussion on lessons learned in dealing with the emergency shipwreck Costa Concordia: this is the subject of two days organized by the Civil Protection Department together with the European Commission, which will be held at Giglio on 14 and 15 November. Experts of the Department and operating structures directly involved illustrate to delegates from all the countries participating in the European Civil Protection Mechanism technical activities of search and rescue implemented as a result of the disaster, in order to identify practical solutions that can be taken up by member countries in addressing similar emergencies and improve the capacity for response under the Mechanism, with particular reference to research and rescue at sea. opened by the work, at the City of Giglio, will be the Head of the Department of Civil Protection Franco Gabrielli and Mayor Sergio Ortelli.

[gatour]

You are worried about glass elevators in a listing situation? What about all of the the other elevators on-board ship? Where has it been said that listing was an issue. More than likely the power outage would have taken them out of commission. What about on-shore elevators in the event of earthquakes.

 

Not sure why you are stressing about stem to stern access. If I am at the stern on my cabin deck at the bottom of the ship, I have no interest in getting to the stem on my deck. Instead I am more interested in getting to the nearest stairway to head up to my muster station. Also on airliners they always say "the nearest exit may be behind you." Cruise ships have two escape routes from public areas, including once you leave the doorway of your cabin.

 

So far, from what I have read there was gross negligence by the captain. There is also an opportunity to revise/upgrade training/procedures and policies.

 

My feeling is that the major cruiselines were geared towards fires and not sinkings. Considering you have 3000+ people onboard ship which any one of them can haphazardly cast aside a cigarette or leave an iron on, that is a logical conclusion.

 

But the Costa Concordia disaster revealed places where policy/procedure/training can be improved that would be applicable to both scenarios.

 

 

 

I want to know when the depth sounder failed.....was it before or after leaving Barcelona on the ill fated cruise?

 

I want to know why glass elevators that were designed for use on buildings ever got certification for use on ships when they have no means of escape in a listing event, were they even tested for such events?

 

I want to know why cruise ship designers & builders insist of cutting stem to stern pax/crew access over several decks by placing galleys and other inaccessable areas within public areas of the ship...thus cutting escape routes and adding confusion in a panicked situation such as a listing event.

 

I want to know why watertight doors close horizontally when it is well known that they relax during power outtages and can let water egress occur under slight water pressure.

 

I want to know why so much money is spent on making the ship visually "pretty" to pax and such little attention is paid on basic evacuation routing and facilities. (I believe that as with Titanic, the cruise industry never believed that there would ever be a large ship loss and as such, no forward planning was built into ship design...it was a case of bigger is better, the more glitz and neon the better and don't worry about accidents cos they will never happen.)

 

I want to know why there was an apparent lack of bridge resource management...why did no-one question the actions or instructions being given during the run up to the course change and after the event....especially since it was known that the ship was not 100% fully functional.

 

Finally....if nothing was wrong with the ship and it was all down to human error...why was there a full repair crew waiting for the ship in Savona who were to board and complete an array of critical equipment repairs during that day and during the next cruise?

 

To me, looking at the technical aspects, the throwing under the bus less than 24 hours after the event appears to have come from Miami and not Genova. It was a cynical way of diverting attention from several issues surrounding the ship that would have inevitable knock-on effects to the rest of the ships of that design/build and potentially every large cruise ship across the industry. It is always easier to blame the human.....Schettino and others DID make errors, they DID react badly and they certainly could/should have done better...BUT...the ship's own participation needs closer scrutiny and so far, it is not getting that scrutiny...and they only reason for that is money...if the ship is bad, it will cost billions to put right the issues on the rest of the ships like her.

[black forest]

I have learned by our security officer: in case of emergency never use a elevator. In case of fire, the elevator may open and then won't close again due to smoke - then you are trapped. Same if power/elextricity doesn't work. Is this the same with cruise ships?

[CostaSmurfette]

What about on-shore elevators in the event of earthquakes.

 

 

Highlighting the above...

 

On-shore elevators in buildings...whether they are the old fully enclosed shaft system or the single track/suspended glass type are packed full of safety equipment and a recognised escape route...

 

However....

 

Elevators on land are built within the strongest part of the building, often the core, where the structures around them are significantly stronger than the outside walls....a classic example of a core that failed was WTC...it took alot to force that core to fail but it showed that the core that encloses the elevators can and will collapse under certain conditions and in certain circumstances.....the designers and architects never imagined having to build into a core the ability to withstand two airliners cutting them in half, it just wasn't considered a possibility.

 

Likewise the use of glass elevators on a ship...the designers and architects had never anticipated a ship to flop over onto its side like Concordia did. The design of the glass elevator pods are identical to those that you can find on buildings but the difference being that a ship can and will drop over given the right set of circumstances. Just as the WTC collapse made architects have a sharp intake of breath when their tried and tested design failed, the same will no doubt have happened at Kone (who provide many of the glass elevators found on cruise ships across several cruise lines).

 

There is no way out of a glass pod elevator....yes, you have a hatch on the roof but once out there, where do you go when the top 5 decks are semi-enclosed in one huge shiny atrium and the lower 5 decks are wide open landings that are often almost the full width of the ship?

 

Eyewitness accounts from passengers escaping Concordia's atrium landings stated that at least three people were in the glass elevators when Concordia commenced her list and they could be heard screaming for help.

 

Those passengers in the elevator(s) would most likely have been in them before the power outtage...since there was no notice that the power was going to fail and the elevators are automatically dropped from the power grid in an emergency situation leading to emergency gensets kicking in.

 

Buildings are designed to stay upright, those built in earthquake zones are built with extra strength in the cores for emergency evacuation via stairs that run around the enclosed elevator shafts...it is basic construction 101. It is only when something like WTC's collapse comes along that all those well rehearsed and well thought out and previously safe design ideas get tossed off the drawingboard.

 

Ships move...they tip over...until Concordia's accident, none had tipped over to and beyond the point of no return...and that event showed that glass elevators have design flaws that could potentially cost lives. At this stage, no-one knows what happened to the three passengers seen and heard inside the glass elevator(s) that night...hopefully they were able to get out before the list became too acute.

[watertheodds]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/captain-coward-costa-concordia-shipwreck-prove/story?id=17740221

 

11/16/12

 

'Captain Coward' Vows to Clear His Name in Costa Concordia

[Armitage Shanks]

I have learned by our security officer: in case of emergency never use a elevator. In case of fire, the elevator may open and then won't close again due to smoke - then you are trapped. Same if power/elextricity doesn't work. Is this the same with cruise ships?

 

Have you really only just learned this? I thought it was common sense. At least here in the UK, it's something they teach at school!

 

You should never use a lift in an emergency, whether it be in a building or on a cruise liner. The implications are far greater on a cruise liner. If it loses power, there's a high chance you will end up stuck inside.

[black forest]

Well - perhaps it is my age. When I was young there was no elevator in the town I lived - so no need to teach about it. Even at High School / Gymnasium this was nothing to talk about.... My children haven't learned it either, because there is no elevator in the school building. So different countries - different experiences. I can add: I prefert to take steps - healthier :-)

Edited November 18, 2012 by black forest

[SomeBeach]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/captain-coward-costa-concordia-shipwreck-prove/story?id=17740221

 

11/16/12

 

'Captain Coward' Vows to Clear His Name in Costa Concordia

 

Of course he's going to say that. It's the only way he can sleep at night. Also encourages people to buy his book by making claims that there is more to be learned.

Look we all know the ship had a few issues and was in need of some repair. I expect him to elaborate on what was wrong with it. The point is, he took the ship off its course. Had the ship stayed its scheduled course, we would not be having this discussion.

I noticed now he claims his "little dingy" was taking on water so he had to be on land to direct the operations. The man is nothing but inconsistant.