Royal Caribbean Art Auction

[galavant3]

On the website, they quote a former auctioneer saying that those raffles are even a rigged affair. They are told to "find the money" and after talking with alcohol induced free lipped passengers who divulge that they have the money to "invest" they then rig the drawing. They even told just how they did this and that they are told to "keep the liquor flowing". They put the target ticket under a fold in the bottom of the container. Then when the peep wins they can do the real hard core pressure sales on the side. Of course just repeating the testimony this former employee gave under oath at the court hearing. Caveat Emptor takes on a whole new meaning doesn't it. If you are reeled in by these charletons, then you wear the shoe that fits. If however, you are buying the art because you like it, then the only thing is you are still being fleeced because you can buy the stuff out of a catalogue for much less and have it framed for much less at home. To each his own. If you're happy so be it. When I walk by one of these auctions, I just have to chuckle. But if you had been one of the couples in the class action suit, one of which lost over $400,000 of their money which it is looking like they will never recover, maybe you'd feel differently. Sotheby's appraised the collection of Dali prints they bought from PW, are actually worth $150 a piece and are forgeries. At least the forgeries are worth something! And get this, it is well known in the art business that Dali NEVER signed any of his Divine Comedy illustrations that PW is touting as being signed by the artist. What a scam..........

 

I see your point, however, I don't think there is much likelihood of us being duped. We don't part with money very easily. Interesting, all our free art (again, probably only worth the paper it is printed on) have included "appraisals" (again, worth only the paper they are printed on). I think my husband goes to people watch since he knows absolutely nothing about art.

 

We did by a Todd White (no idea if it is authentic) that was about $90 including the frame. It would have cost more than that just for the frame so we felt pretty good about it.

 

Bottom line is that I agree with you. It would be very easy to be taken advantage. I would never buy art (other than as an inexpensive accessory) on a cruise ship. But then, I would never buy jewelry either.

[NJcruisenewbie]

They had one on Explorer last month. I don't know what was worse, the art or the free champagne.

[Todd Cruise]

Todd, are you employed by Fine Arts Registry?

 

Very funny...nope just a computer guy...consumer watchdog past time. I got interested on this subject this morning after I read the first post and just Googled everything. It was very interesting and just confirmed what I originally thought about the art.

 

I find your fixation with this issue to be somewhat bizarre.

 

Don't know what is so bizarre about wanting to know the truth about a subject...but whatever....

 

The above quote shows how ridiculous this is...

 

To my knowledge, PW has NEVER served liquor. Cheap champagne, yes, liquor no. Might have said champagne, whatever, I thought champagne contained alcohol, i.e. liqour, arguing semantics IS silly.

 

Silly quote! You can check it for yourself if you don't beleive me.

 

BTW - Paragraphs can be your friend and make for easier reading.

 

Thanks for the grammar lesson, I'll do it any way I like it. This isn't a p_____g contest. I just thought some might like to be forewarned about a scam, and it's not JMHO but a lot of other knowledgeable people.

[alfaeric]

And some have absolutely been proven in a court of law are totally forged signatures. Yogi, you really should read the articles published by Fine Art Registry. In fact, anyone who has bought or could buy something from Park West should read them. Why RCI is still letting them on their ships is a complete mystery after reading the articles. There is even a video interview with a former employee of RCI about her efforts to help guests resolve a complaint. She was ultimately fired after that. Now I wonder if my revelations will incurr any negative ramifications.:confused:

 

Park West isn't who runs the auctions on board anymore. You apparenlty missed that development.

 

The Park West auctioneers and helpers were NOT RCI employees, they worked for PW.

 

RCI now does it themselves, calling it "Art on Royal".

 

That, and everything PW did were not fakes. Maybe the most recent stuff, particularly the Dahli's that were part of the FAR issue.

 

Being that we've met the artists that signed a lot of ours, even to the point of custom signing the back with new art, I know that everything ISN'T a fake, as you so like to post.

 

I know there are issues, and "buyer beware"- but you should also get your facts straight as well.

[Todd Cruise]

The Park West auctioneers and helpers were NOT RCI employees, they worked for PW.

 

I know that everything ISN'T a fake, as you so like to post.

 

I know there are issues, and "buyer beware"- but you should also get your facts straight as well.

 

Evidently you are missing a few facts yourself. The employee I was referring to was not a PW employee but an RCCL resolutions dept. executive who tried to blow the whistle on PW with RCCL.

Maybe you should read the articles also before inacurately quoting me. Nowhere did I say the word "all" or "everything" in relation to artwork from PW. I'm sure they have many pieces of art by other artists. I was referring only to the pieces that have been proven to be fakes mentioned in articles by FAR and other art periodicals. It's not just FAR that has accused them of this. Once would be enough for me. But I am glad you are happy with your purchases and like your artists. Good for you.:)

[alfaeric]

We have friends who will not be persuaded that the art they buy on every cruise is practically worthless. They have been brainwashed by these people so well, they cannot see that the same pieces are sold cruise after cruise after cruise and on multiple lines, multiple ships, etc. They cannot be that valuable from shear numbers alone. In fact, if you take the time to do an online search for them, you will find any number of the same prints available for cheap! When they go to sell their "investment" they will quickly find out just how much they have lost to the schysters. Same for jewelry. Any good gem authority knows that gemstones and jewelry in general is only worth what someone will pay for it, appraisal or not. Diamonds are the only stones that can be counted on unless you have a flawless ruby, emerald or sapphire, and how rare are those! JMHO:cool: BTW, you will also find online, any number of warnings about these companies that prey on cruise line passenger.

 

You start with this, which strongly implies that it's all fake, since real art wouldn't be worthless. And that is also says "everything" without using the word- so great for saying it without saying it.

 

I don't think they are all fakes. But I do believe they are copies or prints by a legitimate artist that you can buy for a fraction of the cost they are getting. I know I have seen many pieces on display that I know are not original works and have seen them in print catalogues. As I said, there are many warnings about them online. You just Google the art company or google "Cruise ship art reviews". In fact google this sentence and you should find the article: Michigan jury rules in favor of Fine Art Registry who claims cruise ship art auctioneers have been selling fraudulent works.

Ok, so then you back off to this.

 

And some have absolutely been proven in a court of law are totally forged signatures. Yogi, you really should read the articles published by Fine Art Registry. In fact, anyone who has bought or could buy something from Park West should read them. Why RCI is still letting them on their ships is a complete mystery after reading the articles. There is even a video interview with a former employee of RCI about her efforts to help guests resolve a complaint. She was ultimately fired after that. Now I wonder if my revelations will incurr any negative ramifications.:confused:

 

And then back up this. Back to implying that everything is worthless.

 

So which is it??

 

As you JUST posted, keep your references to the FAR articles, unless you know otherwise. Those articles are pretty clear what they are talking about.

 

And you think that PW is selling the art of board today? Seriously? That's the major fact that you have wrong. I know you love to rail against PW, which is fine, Don. And Pancho tries his best when you rail against the printing process- it's your windmills.

 

But at least 1) get your story and opinion straight- the issue with PW is mostly against Dahli art that's under major question (WRT the art), and 2) get your information correct- PW IS NOT ON RCI SHIPS anymore.

 

If you want to nit pick from that, great.

 

The number one thing- what is happening on board now is not what happened in the past. So at least get that straight.

[Todd Cruise]

Wow. What a diatribe, I guess you are one of the peole who has gotten ripped off by these folks. But why are you so angry with me, I didn't rip you off. I didn't acuse you of anything at all. Wow And I said "Pratically worthless" not just worthless.

And some means just that...some:rolleyes:

If you are that adement about it, why not look up the hundreds of consumer complaints against them online yourself. There are numerous consumer report agencies with these complaints from people who bought them and even though FAR won their suite against Park West and RCCL who was a co-defendent, in 2010 and that was when RCCL chose not to renew their contract, there are still class action suites being heard to this day. Since I just started researching this today, I did not realize they were not with RCCL anymore until you pointed it out. Thank you, I'm glad to hear it. Now dude, you seriously need to relax and have a glass of wine. Have a great day Dude!

Edited July 17, 2012 by Todd Cruise

[alfaeric]

Wow. What a diatribe, I guess you are one of the peole who has gotten ripped off by these folks. But why are you so angry with me, I didn't rip you off. I didn't acuse you of anything at all. Wow And I said "Pratically worthless" not just worthless.

As opposed to your posts? Have you read what you posted? Do you read that you basically are telling anyone who did business with PW that they are idiots. How many anti PW posts do you have in just this thread?

And some means just that...some:rolleyes:

If you are that adement about it, why not look up the hundreds of consumer complaints against them online yourself. There are numerous consumer report agencies with these complaints from people who bought them and even though FAR won their suite against Park West and RCCL who was a co-defendent, in 2010 and that was when RCCL chose not to renew their contract, there are still class action suites being heard to this day. Since I just started researching this today, I did not realize they were not with RCCL anymore until you pointed it out. Thank you, I'm glad to hear it.

 

If you say so...:rolleyes:

 

Seems as if you've read everything about this case based on your posts.

 

I have read the complaints, and have checked what we bought. And realize that while things got bad, that wasn't until pretty recently.

 

And, most importantly, knew immediately that the art auctions on board the ships we saw the auctions were not Park West. That was back in March.

Edited July 17, 2012 by alfaeric

[don24]

ive been to auctions and it seems they say what there selling.it may be the problem is (and please this isnt an insult or a judgement)people hear what they want to hear.many passengers are not knowledgable enough to understand the differance between posters ,limited editions and originals.ive purchased peter max mixed media on a ship and paid a little more than i should have but i knew what i was buying .i wanted the color combination i saw and that was that.

[yogimax]

 

If you are that adement about it, why not look up the hundreds of consumer complaints against them online yourself.

 

My dearest Todd... Do you have any idea how many pieces of art PW sells in a year?

 

Probably not... the answer please....

 

300,000

 

MY DEAREST TODD... DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT PW'S RATING IS WITH THE BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU?

 

PROBABLY NOT... THE ANSWER PLEASE....

 

A+

 

I know this will be difficult to comprehend, but when you have 3 million sales in ten years, of course there will be complaints. mainly buyer's remorse.

 

I'm really not here to defend PW. Your one-sided posts, however, have driven me to it. And who would I trust? Some internet company looking for cheap publicity or the BBB and the vast majority of buyers!

[iheartbda]

OOPS, double.:o

Edited July 18, 2012 by iheartbda

[iheartbda]

...............

I'm really not here to defend PW. Your one-sided posts, however, have driven me to it. And who would I trust? Some internet company looking for cheap publicity or the BBB and the vast majority of buyers!

 

Not going to get into the general fray but, the BBB ain't all it's cracked up to be. One can find numerous similar articles on it.;)

http://www.thebluesmokeband.com/bbb.php

[MikeKool]

I love these discussions about the art auctions! I've been buying art approximately 20 years and have no regrets what-so-ever. Many of my pieces have come from Park West at sea AND on land. NEVER had any problems with them. Have personally met several of the artists also courtesy of PW. I think many of the problems are caused by buyers who have no idea what they're buying and think everything is an ORIGINAL work. My last cruise on Enchantment in May had an auction by Royal Fine Arts. (Royal Caribbean). Many of the pieces were the same as what Park West sells but guess where the profits go? Why should RCI share with PW when they can pocket it themselves? I did notice Royal's prices were higher than PW and their customer service was terrible! Yep....the champagne is cheap no matter who's selling the art......because it's FREE. Personally I'd rather spend my time at an art auction rather than Bingo, Trivia, Cupcake Class, Wine Tasting or many of the other ship sponsored events. As for the whiners who complain about art blocking up the hallways etc,etc.......no worse than the ship sponsored photographers who block the hallways AND staircases. Not to mention the shops and their cheap sidewalk sales of $10 T Shirts, inch of fake gold etc,etc. I'm on Freedom in September and hopefully they'll be an art auction. I will only buy works I like... IF the price is right.......regardless of how much free cheap champagne I drink! (I think the champagne is the same free cheap stuff RCI supplies to it's Diamond members in their lounges). LOL.

[CruiseCrewGuy]

I have worked in the cruise ship art industry for over a decade.

 

The truth of it all is somewhere in the middle.

 

First, Fine Arts Registry is a joke, to be honest. I'm no fan of Park West Art Gallery, but FAR went after Park West because they refused to do business with FAR, not because they were trying to protect buyers.

 

Yes, there are always some art auctioneers who lie, cheat, steal and mislead in order to profit. You get a small percentage of those with ANY job that you take a close look at. The vast majority of people working in the cruise ship art auction industry love their clients, love art, love cruising and love to share their love of art with the guests who sail with them.

 

FAR used a few cases where auctioneers (who had all been fired when their lies were uncovered) had mislead buyers. Park West failed to respond to those lies in a fair manner, which is one of the reasons I am not a fan. If a buyer feels mislead, you give them back the money and move on, in my opinion. Park West was greedy and didn't realize how bad the publicity would impact their business model and how the general public would fail to understand the truth of the matter.

 

Yes, there were some works of art sold by Park West that were later found to be fake signatures. However, when being sold by Park West, they had been verified by Bernard Ewell.... a man who, at the time, was the FOREMOST DALI EXPERT. It was only after the sales that it was found out that Mr. Ewell had validated a number of forged signatures. Now, every Dali sold anywhere in the world must be validated by Albert Fields... the curator of Dali's museum.

 

So.... Park West thought they were selling valid Dali images. So they fought the charge that they were fake. Turned out they had been misled. It happens. By no means do I believe that PW was attempting to sell fake art at all. They simply got snookered... and it cost them MILLIONS in business.

 

As for Fine Art Registry.... no art companies use them still. They are basically an online database of art sales... no real reason for anyone to "register" their art with them.... to be honest, most people in the art business think they are the real scammers who simply went after PW in an attempt to increase their profile and gain business. It certainly did not work.

 

Having said that, I've conducted art auctions all over the world on nearly every cruise line. The art sold onboard ships ranges from offset lithographs for tens of dollars (copies in non art terms) all the way to original paintings for thousands and thousands of dollars. As with any business, you try to have products for all ranges.

 

Buying art on a cruise is only slightly different than buying it from a gallery at sea. I always go WAY out of my way to educate my collectors on what level of art they are buying. Is it a limited edition work...if so, how many exist. Is it a mixed media (or as one person here called them "fake brush strokes"). Is it a one of a kind, unique work.

 

The unethical art dealer will use the term "original" for almost all the works on a ship. Technically, they are accurate, but they fail to educate the buyer to know that a limited edition litho is actually an original work. Yes, there are more than one of the image, but each one has subtle differences that make them different. And with an etching (a print made from acid on metal plate), which of those is the original?? All of them are.....

 

So, the art world has a LONG history of failing to properly educate their buyers....sometimes without intention, sometimes on purpose. Like I said, there are good and bad in every profession.

 

As someeone who has trained HUNDREDS of art auctioneers for cruise ships, I can tell you that the vast majority try to do as good a job as possible to educate and help clients collect works they love.

 

And for those who think the art is crappy...well, that's the beauty of the art world, one man's gold is another man's crap. Half the stuff I sell on the ship I can't stand.... but I realize that it's still a valid work of art and that others have different tastes.

 

If anyone is cruising on the Mariner in Aug or Sep, or the Liberty from Nov thru the end of January, come say hello. I'd be happy to talk about art ALL DAY LONG. It's truly a passion and a love I enjoy sharing with others. And no, you don't have to buy a single thing for me to enjoy your company!

[yogimax]

I have worked in the cruise ship art industry for over a decade.

 

The truth of it all is somewhere in the middle.

 

First, Fine Arts Registry is a joke, to be honest. I'm no fan of Park West Art Gallery, but FAR went after Park West because they refused to do business with FAR, not because they were trying to protect buyers.

 

Yes, there are always some art auctioneers who lie, cheat, steal and mislead in order to profit. You get a small percentage of those with ANY job that you take a close look at. The vast majority of people working in the cruise ship art auction industry love their clients, love art, love cruising and love to share their love of art with the guests who sail with them.

 

FAR used a few cases where auctioneers (who had all been fired when their lies were uncovered) had mislead buyers. Park West failed to respond to those lies in a fair manner, which is one of the reasons I am not a fan. If a buyer feels mislead, you give them back the money and move on, in my opinion. Park West was greedy and didn't realize how bad the publicity would impact their business model and how the general public would fail to understand the truth of the matter.

 

Yes, there were some works of art sold by Park West that were later found to be fake signatures. However, when being sold by Park West, they had been verified by Bernard Ewell.... a man who, at the time, was the FOREMOST DALI EXPERT. It was only after the sales that it was found out that Mr. Ewell had validated a number of forged signatures. Now, every Dali sold anywhere in the world must be validated by Albert Fields... the curator of Dali's museum.

 

So.... Park West thought they were selling valid Dali images. So they fought the charge that they were fake. Turned out they had been misled. It happens. By no means do I believe that PW was attempting to sell fake art at all. They simply got snookered... and it cost them MILLIONS in business.

 

As for Fine Art Registry.... no art companies use them still. They are basically an online database of art sales... no real reason for anyone to "register" their art with them.... to be honest, most people in the art business think they are the real scammers who simply went after PW in an attempt to increase their profile and gain business. It certainly did not work.

 

Having said that, I've conducted art auctions all over the world on nearly every cruise line. The art sold onboard ships ranges from offset lithographs for tens of dollars (copies in non art terms) all the way to original paintings for thousands and thousands of dollars. As with any business, you try to have products for all ranges.

 

Buying art on a cruise is only slightly different than buying it from a gallery at sea. I always go WAY out of my way to educate my collectors on what level of art they are buying. Is it a limited edition work...if so, how many exist. Is it a mixed media (or as one person here called them "fake brush strokes"). Is it a one of a kind, unique work.

 

The unethical art dealer will use the term "original" for almost all the works on a ship. Technically, they are accurate, but they fail to educate the buyer to know that a limited edition litho is actually an original work. Yes, there are more than one of the image, but each one has subtle differences that make them different. And with an etching (a print made from acid on metal plate), which of those is the original?? All of them are.....

 

So, the art world has a LONG history of failing to properly educate their buyers....sometimes without intention, sometimes on purpose. Like I said, there are good and bad in every profession.

 

As someeone who has trained HUNDREDS of art auctioneers for cruise ships, I can tell you that the vast majority try to do as good a job as possible to educate and help clients collect works they love.

 

And for those who think the art is crappy...well, that's the beauty of the art world, one man's gold is another man's crap. Half the stuff I sell on the ship I can't stand.... but I realize that it's still a valid work of art and that others have different tastes.

 

If anyone is cruising on the Mariner in Aug or Sep, or the Liberty from Nov thru the end of January, come say hello. I'd be happy to talk about art ALL DAY LONG. It's truly a passion and a love I enjoy sharing with others. And no, you don't have to buy a single thing for me to enjoy your company!

 

Thanks for an excerllent explanation!

 

As you might have guessed, we have attended a number of PW auctions, as well as Art at Sea on Oasis. Just curious, if you wish, I would love to know your first name to see if we know you.

[CruiseCrewGuy]

Thanks for an excerllent explanation!

 

As you might have guessed, we have attended a number of PW auctions, as well as Art at Sea on Oasis. Just curious, if you wish, I would love to know your first name to see if we know you.

 

Yogi, Send me a private message and I'll be more than happy to figure out if we've sailed together before!

[webspec1]

I purchased artwork while sailing on Seranade of the Seas trans-atlantic cruise (April 21, 2012). I love the art however, Art on Royal privided a poor final product. The matting is done poorly ,one layer and no color on the matted edge, and the frame is a cheap black plastic frame. Additionally, I had to call Art on Royal 11 weeks after the sailing to find out why my art had not been received. I know I can return the art if I am not happy, but the cost of shipping and the hassle isn't worth it to me. I have purchased art on sailings from Parkwest and the the matting and the frame were done so lovely I was overly surprised. I will cruise where Parkwest is auctioning the next time I want to buy art on a cruise.

[ggo85]

Jumping into the fray . . . having attended a couple of art auctions just to learn something about art but NEVER having purchased anything . . . and not having any connection with the art industry or cruise industry . . .

 

Unless you know a LOT about art, you're relying on the word of someone -- the art auction person -- you've never met before and likely will never meet again (as compared to an owner of a local gallery) regarding the value of your purchase. Thus, if you don't know what you're doing, you have the huge potential to be ripped off. Then, if something goes wrong and/or if you get ripped off, you may or may not be covered under US laws (as you would be if you purchase from a dealer in the US).

 

I've read some of the PW and FAR legal stuff. My take is that there's a reason that PW is no longer on many cruise lines where they used to be and the reason probably relates to that lawsuit. That doesn't mean PW is the incarnation of evil but there are a lot of people who lost a lot of money. Of the others who purchased from PW on cruises, some probably got good deals, some probably got ripped off and don't know it, and most probably got more or less what they paid for. However, being fair to "most" customers doesn't make it OK to cheat even a few.

 

At the end of the day, if you're at a cruise art auction (regardless of who runs it) and like the art and/or the frame, go ahead and buy it. But, don't spend more than you're prepared to toss out the window. That way, if you get home and find that what you purchased is essentially worthless or worth a lot less than you paid, you won't feel badly.:)

Edited August 8, 2012 by ggo85

[macruisefan]

I would consider buying something if it was a piece I thought I would enjoy and I was comfortable with the price. However, I would NEVER buy anything because I thought it was worth it as an investment. That's for suckers.

[macruisefan]

We have friends who will not be persuaded that the art they buy on every cruise is practically worthless. They have been brainwashed by these people so well, they cannot see that the same pieces are sold cruise after cruise after cruise and on multiple lines, multiple ships, etc. They cannot be that valuable from shear numbers alone. In fact, if you take the time to do an online search for them, you will find any number of the same prints available for cheap! When they go to sell their "investment" they will quickly find out just how much they have lost to the schysters. Same for jewelry. Any good gem authority knows that gemstones and jewelry in general is only worth what someone will pay for it, appraisal or not. Diamonds are the only stones that can be counted on unless you have a flawless ruby, emerald or sapphire, and how rare are those! JMHO:cool: BTW, you will also find online, any number of warnings about these companies that prey on cruise line passenger.

 

This was the first of your many, many ranting posts in this thread. Unfortunately, you lost all credibility halfway through when you decided using what is largely considered an antisemitic reference was appropriate. Maybe you should do a little more research.:cool:

[nikatgram]

A "friend of a friend" told me that she has purchased PW art in the past, and has received FREE cruises from it. Have you ever heard of that?

[Darkwolfe]

A "friend of a friend" told me that she has purchased PW art in the past, and has received FREE cruises from it. Have you ever heard of that?

 

Eh, I'd be suspicious as all get out. That "Friend of a friend" might be Snidely Whiplash in disguise. Never ever heard anything like a free cruise from buying from PW. Loads of unhappy customers, I've heard of lots of those.

[alfaeric]

A "friend of a friend" told me that she has purchased PW art in the past, and has received FREE cruises from it. Have you ever heard of that?

 

 

I have heard of it for sure. I would not exactly call them free- they were events that were set up to sell more art.

 

The one thing I will note- the higher end art events Park West did were a lot more straight up than the issues that were found on ships, later in their contract. You meet the artists, see more of the rare art- the offerings are much more.

 

The cruises are those kind of events- once you reach a level of buying, you will be offered events so that you can get more art. Having been to some, the events are pretty nice.

 

For those who think they would take the free cruise and not buy anything- I would be pretty sure that they have a good model of who buys and who does not, and only offer events to people who will likely buy.

[alohanails]

From the Captain of the Rhapsody....a bunch of years ago...When asked who had the easiest and laziest job onboard..He said, with no hesitation..."the guys that run the art auction"

 

And if you read Cruise Confidential the author claims the art auctioneer has the ability to out earn the Captain! They work on commission....

Bonnie

[HydroAlbatross]

I would now advise to avoid these "art auctions." I went to a few, bought a few items. Never received. I've read other reviews here and on facebook of customers who did not receive their art. After bidding he offers the same thing to others for the same price. So you really don't "win" anything for your efforts.