Where were the Dutch and other Euros on Atlantis's recent Amsterdam-Barcelona cruise?

[IslandExplorer]

Just got off the Celebrity Constellation. Great cruise!

 

I forget the exact numbers, but on a ship with 2,000 gays only about 50 were Dutch -- despite the Amsterdam embarkation port.

 

What was that all about? I would have thought that Dutch guys would en masse have grabbed at the opportunity to take a cruise without having to pay for the initial flight.

 

In other words, the biggest gay boat ever to leave Amsterdam left with hardly any Dutch people on board.

 

There were also surprisingly few British and Germans on board. They are also within easy reach of Amsterdam. About 50 of each, if I remember correctly. Maybe it's a European thing?

 

Any theories?

 

(I'd be particularly interested in hearing from those who understand the Dutch, British and German gay travel market.)

Edited September 19, 2013 by IslandExplorer

[IslandExplorer]

Strange...in the two hours since I posted this almost 2 hours ago, 44 people have looked at this post, but not a single person has responded. This forum seems to get a lot of traffic, but few are posting.

[my crow's nest]

Perhaps none of us know enough about the marketing approach to potential gay Dutch and German cruisers?

[IslandExplorer]

Most people here are American perhaps?

[Roy&Adrian]

Hi IE,

We looked at the Atlantis (and RSVP) cruises for this summer, but none were during our vacation window.

A works in Education so had to be back at work on 2nd September so we were able to go on Pied Piper's Med cruise on the Equinox, but couldn't go on RSVP's similar cruise which finished a day later. And we would have gone on it just to get away from the screaming kids.

As for why other Europeans weren't there, I'm not sure. Atlantis and RSVP are a bit more expensive, but the exchange rate makes buying a cruise via a US travel agent more competitive.

We went on the RSVP cruise which went around the Med a few years ago and had a great time. We'd love to do another, but they do so few that we usually find one of the many PP cruises to go on (and PP always have a great price). In fact, we've already booked next year's with PP.

Roy

[cruisejames]

The likes of Atlantis don't work with UK Travel Agents so many don't even know they exist.

 

I think they are missing a trick with this as the UK and German markets would really embrace this

[relo]

I think the biggest problem is that in the Netherlands most people never have heard about Atlantis & RSVp (and gay cruises generally). This was our 4th Atlantis cruise and we did our first only after i saw an advertisement on the amercan Queer As Folk DVD.

[DutchCruiseFans]

Hi there,

I agree with others that Atlantis is really expensive compared to other cruise line companies. Although money is not a problem for us, we find it still very old fashioned that you can't even make your booking realtime and online with Atlantis. The entire marketing and communication is for US and Canadian citizens only as well as the onboard entertainment from what we can see on their website. We have visited their site quite a few times, but we are not interested in American stand up comedians or American drag queens. We love to cruise with gays and visit in the evening the regular entertainment shows of the cruise liners. It's not clear if they still have these shows during an Atlantis cruise. We also don't like to party every night till 4/5 am and this is the impression we're getting from their website. And last but not least why spend a full week on a cruise where the body is more important than the brain? If we have to believe all the pictures of Atlantis. There is also a big difference in culture between Europeans and Americans. We don't have so much the urge to be with all and only gays together in one hotel or on 1 cruise ship. It limits and restricts our view to the world. Hope all clear :)

Peter

[RJ2002]

Hi there,

I agree with others that Atlantis is really expensive compared to other cruise line companies. Although money is not a problem for us, we find it still very old fashioned that you can't even make your booking realtime and online with Atlantis. The entire marketing and communication is for US and Canadian citizens only as well as the onboard entertainment from what we can see on their website. We have visited their site quite a few times, but we are not interested in American stand up comedians or American drag queens. We love to cruise with gays and visit in the evening the regular entertainment shows of the cruise liners. It's not clear if they still have these shows during an Atlantis cruise. We also don't like to party every night till 4/5 am and this is the impression we're getting from their website. And last but not least why spend a full week on a cruise where the body is more important than the brain? If we have to believe all the pictures of Atlantis. There is also a big difference in culture between Europeans and Americans. We don't have so much the urge to be with all and only gays together in one hotel or on 1 cruise ship. It limits and restricts our view to the world. Hope all clear :)

Peter

 

Welcome to Cruise Critic!

 

Atlantis is a company that arranges charter cruises. It is not a cruise line. You will find that any charter cruise will have higher costs than a non-charter cruise.

 

Perhaps you should look at Pied Piper. They organize groups on mainstream cruises. I don't know how they compare in price to a full charter though.

[Oslo Dutch]

Altantis and RSVP are still considered to be very American based products and if you want to join them it can be quite a lot of effort. I can remember I had to book my Atlantis cruise via the UK and it was all very inconvenient.

I also get the impression that Rich is not interested in the European market apart from filling up space.

 

We Europeans just have to blend in and go with the flow. Interesting even though for example entertainment wise, most of the time we haven´t got a clue where our American fellow guest are on about.

 

Culture wise for us there is also not such a big need to be for a fortnight on a boat in a bubble with 2000 gay guys as in general the gay population is far more accepted and integrated into society.

 

Frank fully honest, most of my fellow Dutchmen and Scandinavians wince at the idea being stuck on a ship with thousands of stoned, drunk and over-sexed , circuit party one braincelled American muscle Mary´s. It´s very hard to convince people here that that´s not the case. Mind you, the Atlantis marketing doesn´t really help either to get rid of that stereo type.

 

I think gay cruising is just not such a European thing considering many initiatives taken in the past which were not successful. I can remember speaking to people from RSVP and Dan Howell but they just didn´t seem to be interested to look over the US border for new US clients

[amspinner]

Coming from this Amsterdammer, most Dutch don't feel the need for a gay cruise. Here Gay Pride only began in the late 90's. We had nothing to be unproud of. There are no gay ghettos in Amsterdam. We live and are welcomed all around the city. Partner and I did the Transatlantic on the Epic in spring 2012 and were overwhelmed with the 200+ gays on board.

[IslandExplorer]

Contacted Atlantis though their website. They replied by e-mail two days later.

Exchanged four e-mails with them.

Took a few minutes to pick out the room.

Paid by credit card.

It took no more than 15 minutes.

[EdmPair]

As a Canadian, I see Atlantis as an American product. The market is for a party ship. And so I hear clearly how some in Netherlands would see the same and not jump at the extra fair to go on a cruise with all gay men when they are so at home in their own country and know they will be welcomed on any ship. (From my POV, Atlantis does a similar dance with lesbians. "Of course, they are welcome." However, try to find a photo of some on the pages.

 

I hear you do not like some of the answers you have been given. I will post no more.

[IslandExplorer]

It's not that I don't like the answers.

 

And I do understand the impulse not to go on a gay cruise.

 

What I do notice here though is a lot of misinformation about what Atlantis cruises are actually like. The Atlantic cruises are tea parties in comparison to the La Demence cruises.

 

I also find it difficult to accept that gay Europeans would, as a policy, avoid an "American" boat.

 

Yes, it is a very American experience. I must say it was strange sailing down the IJ, looking at the Dutch countryside from a dining room filled with hundreds of older, successful gay Americans. Where were the Dutch people?

 

I'm still hoping a travel marketing expert from Atlantis or the European travel market will, armed with solid facts and marketing research, take the time to explain this.

 

Why are Europeans not going on these cruises?

[IslandExplorer]

Coming from this Amsterdammer, most Dutch don't feel the need for a gay cruise. Here Gay Pride only began in the late 90's. We had nothing to be unproud of. There are no gay ghettos in Amsterdam. We live and are welcomed all around the city.

 

No, this is simply wrong. This poster does not speak for most Dutch gays.

 

I agree that most Dutch people are not going on gay cruises, but I'd like to know why exactly.

 

This comment strangely mixes gay cruising with gay pride. My impression is that many of the people who take gay cruises are successful older gay men who don't particularly hang out at gay pride events.

 

Pride is currently huge in Amsterdam, and quite political. Everyone participates. To say that "pride" is not an issue for Dutch people is simply wrong.

 

There may be no gay ghettos in Amsterdam, but that has nothing at all to do with gay people. It has to do with the strange housing market.

 

Currently gay people living in Amsterdam and the Netherlands have a problem with homophobic violence (as occurs elsewhere in the world) so it's not correct to say that we are "welcomed" all around the city. How about the Bijlmer, for example? Are we welcome there?

[CruisinMaterial]

Altantis and RSVP are still considered to be very American based products and if you want to join them it can be quite a lot of effort. I can remember I had to book my Atlantis cruise via the UK and it was all very inconvenient.

I also get the impression that Rich is not interested in the European market apart from filling up space.

 

We Europeans just have to blend in and go with the flow. Interesting even though for example entertainment wise, most of the time we haven´t got a clue where our American fellow guest are on about.

 

Culture wise for us there is also not such a big need to be for a fortnight on a boat in a bubble with 2000 gay guys as in general the gay population is far more accepted and integrated into society.

 

Frank fully honest, most of my fellow Dutchmen and Scandinavians wince at the idea being stuck on a ship with thousands of stoned, drunk and over-sexed , circuit party one braincelled American muscle Mary´s. It´s very hard to convince people here that that´s not the case. Mind you, the Atlantis marketing doesn´t really help either to get rid of that stereo type.

 

I think gay cruising is just not such a European thing considering many initiatives taken in the past which were not successful. I can remember speaking to people from RSVP and Dan Howell but they just didn´t seem to be interested to look over the US border for new US clients

 

Oslo - As always you raise salient points and all of them I concur with. The marketing scheme from Atlantis is selling nothing but parties and the images on their website show you have to be between the ages of 25-40 and have a certain body type to fit in. With Atlantis acquiring RSVP their marketing materials have changed their focus too. Before it seemed RSVP would cater to the older gay market.

 

Your thoughts about Rich only using European folks to fill the ships is spot on. He's got the same attitude with most everyone these days on just getting his ships filled. His usual cruise from LA to Mexico yearly sells out in record time but this year he's bargained the price to dirt cheap just to get the cabins sold.

 

Rich likes to alienate people. When you go to the Atlantis reunion he comes off as pompous and like he's better than you, yet your the reason why he has a business to begin with. If he had half a brain he'd let Malcolm take over the company and he'd just be in the background somewhere and not seen in public on the sailings. Most of his office staff have the same problem he does so calling their you get some snot-nosed, probably minimum wage twinky boy who acts like your inconveniencing him by the call. The only person who has ever been any good there is Ellen.

 

Atlantis has a serious image problem at this point. The concept is great but I think it's time for a smarter competitor to come along who is more in touch with the gay market globally.

[Host Tyler]

Please stay on topic and watch the "flaming".

[mathan416]

It's not that I don't like the answers.

I also find it difficult to accept that gay Europeans would, as a policy, avoid an "American" boat.

 

As a Canadian who has lived abroad in the UK, Germany and Uruguay, I can completely understand why. It's just a different way of living, different ideologies, etc...

 

Scott and I chose a non-gay cruise for our first cruise because we don't have a need to be around gay folks. As for Atlantis, we don't fit their demographic, so...

Edited October 21, 2013 by mathan416
To be fair to the topic at hand.

[jamessemaj]

As a Canadian who has lived abroad in the UK, Germany and Uruguay, I can completely understand why. It's just a different way of living, different ideologies, etc...

 

Scott and I chose a non-gay cruise for our first cruise because we don't have a need to be around gay folks. As for Atlantis, we don't fit their demographic, so...

 

I agree completely. I have been in gay groups when I have scurried to the nearest group for relief and normal conversation. I appreciate being around people who understand and can relate to being gay, but that is not all that I am as a person, and there is no way I would sign up for an exclusively gay cruise. Some day, I hope for total integration into mainstream society, and gay segregation, such as on gay cruises are an obstacle to that integration in my opinion. Flame away, I am used to abuse and don't really care.

[Britboys]

I can't speak about marketing as I am only a consumer but I can say that as a British gay man, I have certainly been vaguely aware of Atlantis & RSVP for a number of years. I have been cruising with (mainly British Cruise Lines) since 1995, mostly with my partner. During our 26 years together, we were never attracted to an all-gay cruise. We always travelled as an openly gay couple and never felt rebuffed in any way.

 

Now that I am widowed, I continue to cruise either as a solo or with a friend but still do not feel remotely attracted to an all-gay charter. I am very comfortable going out for an evening in a gay bar but there is no way I want to be 'trapped' aboard a ship for a week or more with 2000+ gay people. My views on that are very similar to jamessemaj. Fortunately, my partner & I have always felt accepted by the heterosexual people we have cruised with.

 

My first cruise after Tony's death was last October, when I took his ashes along with me to be scattered. As fellow pax became aware of this by the end of the cruise I was quite humbled by the warmth and support shown to me by both fellow pax and staff members. Why should I feel the need for an all-gay cruise?

 

The OP expresses surprise at the lack of European gays aboard their cruise and says "what was that all about". I would say "All-gay cruises? What's all that about". Just my view guys. We all feel differently and I fully accept why some want to take an all-gay cruise. Just not for me - and probably not for many other gay people either.

[absolutboy20]

I don't get why when people post about why they don't go on a gay cruise, they take a negative tone against the people who do choose to take a gay cruise. A poster here would feel "trapped" on a gay charter, but not a mainstream cruise? So the ratio of heterosexuals vs homosexuals makes the difference? Why does another poster say when they are with a gay group, they need to "scurry" away to have a normal conversation? Then the post goes on to state that they can't wait for total integegration when if fact the poster is showing signs of prejudice himself by painting all gays into one group.

 

What gay doesn't want full acceptance? By that token of a all gay cruise leading to an obstacle into mainstream integration, we should not have pride celebrations, gay clubs, or even this category of a GLBT cruise board section. Is it possible that you checked out this forum as you may have a common interest with the people you are trying to avoid?

 

Believe it or not, on the gay charters I have been on, many of the people are from cosmopolitan areas where gays are more accepted, and as previous posters who actually have been cruises will tell you that the group is very diverse on board and not all twinks and circuit partiers. I blame that on the marketing direction by the charters. But I don't get where this its beneath me attitude comes from when talking about why they choose not to go on these cruises. I wouldn`t have a problem with someone who actually went on a gay cruise and give a reason why they didn't like the experience. I understand that just like every cruise line isn't for everyone`s taste. If I were looking at a mainstream cruise, I wouldn't be using the reasoning that I would feel trapped or feel he need to scurry away. I would be open to the idea.

 

As far as the OP`s question, coming from an American, I can't give you a first hand reasons why there are less Europeans. My experience is that I usually see some Europeans represented, but the majority are American or Canadian. From the alumni boards, I have heard fellow passengers in the past state that the entertainment was too catered towards the American audience with the performers and comediannes. I don't believe its just a simple reason as Europeans don't need it as they are all accepted in society,

 

I also saw gay charters that target the European market such as La Demence, which quite frankly I never heard of until about a few months ago, whereas I can name four or five US based gay companies.

Edited October 22, 2013 by absolutboy20

[Britboys]

As I used the word "trapped" in my post I feel the need to respond. Hopefully you will not feel that my post was too negative about Gay Cruises - I merely expressed my personal preference and clearly stated I understood why others may wish to choose a gay cruise. For me it is just about a sense of proportion. Being gay is only a part of my life - and probably not the biggest part any more. I really don't feel I need to be totally surrounded by other gay people on a cruise. It is much more comfortable for me to be with a standard cross section of people when I am on a cruise, rather than choosing to be defined by my sexuality on a particular cruise.

 

No, I have not tried a gay cruise but neither have I tried a coach tour holiday - but I still know I don't fancy that either.

 

As I said in my earlier post, if gay cruises float your boat, fine. They just do not appeal to me.

[cruzeluver]

Most people here are American perhaps?

 

More like the vast majority, would be my guess. And I'm also guessing the number of Dutch gay folks on here is virtually nil.

[Austcruiser84]

Believe it or not, on the gay charters I have been on, many of the people are from cosmopolitan areas where gays are more accepted, and as previous posters who actually have been cruises will tell you that the group is very diverse on board and not all twinks and circuit partiers. I blame that on the marketing direction by the charters.

 

I won't criticise those who choose to do gay cruises, but I admit I am one of those who shuns such cruises because of the marketing.

 

My experience of the Sydney gay "community" has convinced me I wouldn't enjoy myself on one of these cruises.

 

Plus, they don't seem to be very long cruises. That's an equal reason for why I don't choose them.

 

Everyone has a right to make choices that fit best with their wants. Gay cruising is a market, but one which has no appeal to me.

[CadillacRon]

I enjoy both straight and gay cruises. Every year I go on a mainstream cruise with my straight brother and I've also been on several RSVP and Atlantis cruises. The experiences are completely different and enjoyable for different reasons.

I don't go on the gay charters because I "need" to be "trapped" on a ship with gay people. The sense of community on the gay cruises is amazing. I've maintained friendships with people I've met on the gay cruises and the specialized entertainment is more hit than miss. No I'm not a tweaked out party boy. That stereotype of the typical gay cruiser is really unfair. The premium you pay for a charter goes for the extras that aren't on regular cruises. We went on a Turner Classic Movies cruise and it was even more expensive than RSVP or Atlantis. (FYI, Tippi Hedren, Eva Marie Saint and Ernest Borgnine were the special guests and were amazing.)

On the straight cruises, we don't meet as many of the other cruisers. My brother and I learned the hard way to be careful when booking to avoid school holidays. We did an Easter cruise on an RCCL megaship and heard the following announcement, "we have a record 1200 kids and teens on board this week." And it felt like it. Lots of screaming and crying babies, sullen teens who actually formed rival "gangs", and just too many families and stroller traffic jams for my taste. That said, I love having the gym mostly to myself on the straight cruises and enjoy the corny theater productions. October through the first half of November are a real bargain and most of the kids are in school.

I agree with Absolutboy20. We shouldn't denigrate things we haven't experienced. There is room for both gay and straight cruises and cruisers and we all have our own preferences. We are on this forum because we love going on cruises in whatever form. Let's find out what we have in common rather than what sets us apart.