6 year old boy drowns on Carnival ship.,

[luvlake]

A neighbor of mine brokers insurance for large companies, like Disney. I don't even know if I used the correct wordage just now for what he does, but long story short, he once told me the presence of lifeguards on cruise ships and/or at hotels greatly increases their liability. A simple Swim At Your Own Risk sign, opposed to a lifeguard almost completely clears them of liability. I say almost because there could obviously be countless other factors. But regardless, that is the reason there are no lifeguards.

 

 

I was living in an apartment complex and they would not clear any ice or snow during winter. The liability is just what you are talking about. If they had cleared the snow and I fell and suffered serious injuries it then became the fault of the complex for not doing everything correct. So we were on our own. Quite a world we live in!

[Karysa]

A neighbor of mine brokers insurance for large companies, like Disney. I don't even know if I used the correct wordage just now for what he does, but long story short, he once told me the presence of lifeguards on cruise ships and/or at hotels greatly increases their liability. A simple Swim At Your Own Risk sign, opposed to a lifeguard almost completely clears them of liability. I say almost because there could obviously be countless other factors. But regardless, that is the reason there are no lifeguards.

 

Well perhaps saving the life of a child or preventing a teen from becoming a quadriplegic out weighs the cost of a life guard or a potential lawsuit. Sometimes doing the right thing costs money.

[halos]

. Sometimes doing the right thing costs money.

 

That cause of that child's death is inconclusive. We have no idea what caused the drowning.

If he had some sort of physical issue that cause him to drown, then a lifeguard may not have been any good. Remember, he was in a pool with other people and nobody noticed until it was too late.

 

This is one incident....if it wasn't for this incident, we wouldn't be discussing lifeguards. How many cruise ships sail the oceans every week, week upon week, all year long??

Lifeguards are not going to suddenly appear because of this incident. Not going to happen.

[Mrs. Squirrel]

I believe in prayer for healing of the heart and soul. Posts like cruisecritiquer's helps with awareness of a silent killer. Blaming the parents or Carnival for this terrible accident helps no one.

 

I agree and well said.

[Karysa]

That cause of that child's death is inconclusive. We have no idea what caused the drowning.

If he had some sort of physical issue that cause him to drown, then a lifeguard may not have been any good. Remember, he was in a pool with other people and nobody noticed until it was too late.

 

This is one incident....if it wasn't for this incident, we wouldn't be discussing lifeguards. How many cruise ships sail the oceans every week, week upon week, all year long??

Lifeguards are not going to suddenly appear because of this incident. Not going to happen.

 

There was a terrible near drowning of a small child last year and how many near misses. If you don't think lifeguards are necessary that is ok with me but I think that they are. A lifeguard would have most likely saved this child's life and the cost is really a small price to pay for that.

 

People are always complaining about children in the pools unsupervised. Lifeguards will also help to limit this as well.

[B6ConMe]

There was a terrible near drowning of a small child last year and how many near misses. If you don't think lifeguards are necessary that is ok with me but I think that they are. A lifeguard would have most likely saved this child's life and the cost is really a small price to pay for that.

 

People are always complaining about children in the pools unsupervised. Lifeguards will also help to limit this as well.

 

Actually, I'm afraid it won't at all. People will simply feel as though they have someone else to do their job. Accept your responsibility to watch YOUR child in the water or don't allow them in the water!!

 

Lifeguards can't be expected to police all children in all pools and if you think they should then please look around and find a lifeguard willing and capable of accepting that kind of responsibility, are you going to sue the Lifeguard the first time a child is injured or drowns under their watch because someone else, a parent, guardian or adult wasn't doing their job properly?

 

This thread can go on and on about who to blame and what to do, it still won't change the outcome or real reason this thread was started.

 

More prayers to the family and all those affected by this tragedy.

[Karysa]

Actually, I'm afraid it won't at all. People will simply feel as though they have someone else to do their job. Accept your responsibility to watch YOUR child in the water or don't allow them in the water!!

 

Lifeguards can't be expected to police all children in all pools and if you think they should then please look around and find a lifeguard willing and capable of accepting that kind of responsibility, are you going to sue the Lifeguard the first time a child is injured or drowns under their watch because someone else, a parent, guardian or adult wasn't doing their job properly?

 

This thread can go on and on about who to blame and what to do, it still won't change the outcome or real reason this thread was started.

 

More prayers to the family and all those affected by this tragedy.

 

There are lifeguards at beaches, camps and public pools. They don't get the recognization that they deserve but they save lives.

 

Trying to prevent this from happening to another child and their family is most certainly not disrespectful but doing nothing most certainly is.

[travelgirl87]

Well perhaps saving the life of a child or preventing a teen from becoming a quadriplegic out weighs the cost of a life guard or a potential lawsuit. Sometimes doing the right thing costs money.

 

People often greatly underestimate the cost of having lifeguards at a public pool. Lifeguards should generally work in 30 minute shifts before taking a break to maintain a proper state of vigilance. The American Red Cross recommends a ratio of 1 lifeguard on duty for each 25 pool patrons. The Boy Scouts require 1 lifeguard for each 10 swimmers.

 

The pools on most cruise ships are huge and have high capacities. If 50 lifeguards need to be hired to keep a single pool open for a stretch of time during the day (no pool would be 24 hours), then the ship will need to find a way to cover that cost. Would those using the pool be willing to pay a daily per person fee for the privilege? Or would these costs be incorporated into the cruise fares?

[Karysa]

People often greatly underestimate the cost of having lifeguards at a public pool. Lifeguards should generally work in 30 minute shifts before taking a break to maintain a proper state of vigilance. The American Red Cross recommends a ratio of 1 lifeguard on duty for each 25 pool patrons. The Boy Scouts require 1 lifeguard for each 10 swimmers.

 

The pools on most cruise ships are huge and have high capacities. If 50 lifeguards need to be hired to keep a single pool open for a stretch of time during the day (no pool would be 24 hours), then the ship will need to find a way to cover that cost. Would those using the pool be willing to pay a daily per person fee for the privilege? Or would these costs be incorporated into the cruise fares?

 

Trust me I have been to many Y's, wave pools, beaches, public pools and water parks where lifeguards are on duty and they work more than 30 minutes before a break and are responsible for more than 10-25 people at a time. It costs money to keep people safe. I get that, but after hearing about a story such as this I would rather more of my money go towards that than towards upgraded interiors and the like. Perhaps having one pool open with lifeguards for children and non-swimmers and having lifeguard qualifications as part of the children's club crew members per-requisite and incorporating life guarding into their jobs is the way of the future. Many camps require all camp councellors to have this distinction. Remember necessity is the mother of invention and with a little insight, brainstorming and cash a tragedy of this nature can be prevented.

 

This happened on a cruiseship but a tragedy such as this can happen around any open water and therefore, I am an advocate for swimming lessons as well for children and non-swimming adults and believe that swimming is a life skill as well as an enjoyable past time and great way to exercise. I think that communities should provide more subsidized swimming lessons and physicians and schools should educate parents, children and adults alike on the importance of being able to swim.

 

Stepping off of soap-box now.

[halos]

People are always complaining about children in the pools unsupervised. .

Indeed. The lack of parenting is at times unreal isn't it??

I am all about being a parent. To me, it's a parent's responsibility to be with their child in a pool, especially at a hotel or on a cruis ship or anywhere else where there is no lifeguard....as well as in places where there is a lifeguard.

Sadly, the kind of parents who don't keep an eye on thier kids will keep even less of an eye on them if a lifeguard is present.

 

Bottom line is the cruise ships are NOT going to start having them. It's about the numbers.....this rarely happens. Wishing for a life guard or believing there should be one will not make it so.

 

 

 

Actually, I'm afraid it won't at all. People will simply feel as though they have someone else to do their job. Accept your responsibility to watch YOUR child in the water or don't allow them in the water!!

 

Bingo.

 

 

Trust me I have been to many Y's, wave pools, beaches, public pools and water parks where lifeguards are on duty and they work more than 30 minutes before a break and are responsible for more than 10-25 people at a time. .

 

Ever seen one at a hotel?

You are talking apples/oranges here.

[Karysa]

Indeed. The lack of parenting is at times unreal isn't it??

I am all about being a parent. To me, it's a parent's responsibility to be with their child in a pool, especially at a hotel or on a cruis ship or anywhere else where there is no lifeguard....as well as in places where there is a lifeguard.

Sadly, the kind of parents who don't keep an eye on thier kids will keep even less of an eye on them if a lifeguard is present.

 

Bottom line is the cruise ships are NOT going to start having them. It's about the numbers.....this rarely happens. Wishing for a life guard or believing there should be one will not make it so.

 

 

 

 

 

Bingo.

 

 

 

 

Ever seen one at a hotel?

You are talking apples/oranges here.

 

 

The hotels that I have been to require a key swipe or entry code to enter the indoor pool room or outdoor gated pool. That would be a start. Brainstorming instead of blaming is definitely the way to go on this one.:)

[rhblake]

Brainstorming instead of blaming is definitely the way to go on this one.:)

 

Why would we need brainstorming? This is the first incident of a child drowning aboard a cruise ship I have ever heard of. From what I have read the parents failed their child by leaving their 6 year old, who did not know how to swim, with their 9 year old. That failure was an irresponsible act on the part of the parents not the cruise line. While this death is every tragic you don’t make an entire industry change for 1 apparent accident. Ultimately everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions, not try and transfer that responsibility to someone else.

 

You cannot protect everyone 100% of the time.

[halos]

The hotels that I have been to require a key swipe or entry code to enter the indoor pool room or outdoor gated pool. That would be a start. Brainstorming instead of blaming is definitely the way to go on this one.:)

I certainly don't blame the parents of this child who drowned....I have no clue what the circumstances of that situation were.

I do get upset when I see kids on ships that seem to have no supervision at any time...fortunately most do :)

 

I am sure there are ways like key card entry that work for hotels, however, it's not going to happen on a cruise ship.

 

Do you seriously think this would make sense on a ship?? :confused:

 

For those worried about their kids...WATCH THEM. What I believe would be so much more effective on every cruise line is that if a child is seen too often without their parents near by, and seems to be doing anything that could get him or someone else hurt, then the parents should be given a warning...if that doesn't work, they get tossed off the ship at the next port.

THAT would be efficient.

In this particular case, the father of the boy was supposedly in the water with him. I can't imagine what went wrong to have this boy drown in a small pool in front of what is likely a lot of people but I bet there were extenuating circumstances. If there were, a lifeguard would have been of no help.

If the father was indeed in the pool with the child, I assume if the pool was 'gated' (which I still can't imagine that on a ship...) he still would have drowned. because he'd have walked through that gate with his father.

bottom line, child is still gone. gate or no gate.

 

There are no simple answers. Just tossing out 'hire lifeguards or gate the pool' seem like a simple solution but in reality they make no sense because sometimes, no matter what, freak accidents happen.

That's what this was.

[rvsullivan]

Lifeguards are not the answer!!!! I was an officer of an home owners association for many years. Some wanted lifeguards for the pool when there was a spate of child drownings in the area. Our insurance carrier and all the others we contacted said absolutely not! We would be dropped if we opted to do it. Reason was, if the pool was secured for child entry (it was) and posted with the standard warning about unattended children, we were completely covered. As soon a you post a lifeguard (even for a few hours a day), you become liable for any accidents 24x7. It presumes a know hazard that you opted not to protect against.

 

Many years ago I was a lifeguard, and if you notice today, any pool that has a lifeguard, their rule is law. Act up or break the rules and your out of the pool!

Can you imagine mommy and daddy if a ships lifeguard dared ban little Johnny or Sally from the ships pool for acting up? Letters and calls to the CEO of the cruise line would swamp the office.

The ships don't need lifeguards, they need parents to take care of their families and be responsible for what happens. In this case it is now stated this child was with both his older brother and his dad, what would a lifeguard have done that his family did not???

 

In no way, shape or form do I think the parents did anything wrong, it was an accident or illness, that's all.

[Karysa]

I certainly don't blame the parents of this child who drowned....I have no clue what the circumstances of that situation were.

I do get upset when I see kids on ships that seem to have no supervision at any time...fortunately most do :)

 

I am sure there are ways like key card entry that work for hotels, however, it's not going to happen on a cruise ship.

 

Do you seriously think this would make sense on a ship?? :confused:

 

For those worried about their kids...WATCH THEM. What I believe would be so much more effective on every cruise line is that if a child is seen too often without their parents near by, and seems to be doing anything that could get him or someone else hurt, then the parents should be given a warning...if that doesn't work, they get tossed off the ship at the next port.

THAT would be efficient.

In this particular case, the father of the boy was supposedly in the water with him. I can't imagine what went wrong to have this boy drown in a small pool in front of what is likely a lot of people but I bet there were extenuating circumstances. If there were, a lifeguard would have been of no help.

If the father was indeed in the pool with the child, I assume if the pool was 'gated' (which I still can't imagine that on a ship...) he still would have drowned. because he'd have walked through that gate with his father.

bottom line, child is still gone. gate or no gate.

 

There are no simple answers. Just tossing out 'hire lifeguards or gate the pool' seem like a simple solution but in reality they make no sense because sometimes, no matter what, freak accidents happen.

That's what this was.

 

I most certainly do think that a locked gated pool with an attendant present at the gate during open hours would help prevent drownings and near drownings. Fenced in pools with a locked gate help prevent drownings, we have to have them in our city if we own a pool and I would like to see this on cruiseships.

 

Looking at the whole picture and not just this incident (by reading the very different takes on the situation from the previous 2 posters its difficult to know what exactly happened) is the way that I believe a solution that protects our most vulnerable can be found.

[Karysa]

Lifeguards are not the answer!!!! I was an officer of an home owners association for many years. Some wanted lifeguards for the pool when there was a spate of child drownings in the area. Our insurance carrier and all the others we contacted said absolutely not! We would be dropped if we opted to do it. Reason was, if the pool was secured for child entry (it was) and posted with the standard warning about unattended children, we were completely covered. As soon a you post a lifeguard (even for a few hours a day), you become liable for any accidents 24x7. It presumes a know hazard that you opted not to protect against.

 

Many years ago I was a lifeguard, and if you notice today, any pool that has a lifeguard, their rule is law. Act up or break the rules and your out of the pool!

Can you imagine mommy and daddy if a ships lifeguard dared ban little Johnny or Sally from the ships pool for acting up? Letters and calls to the CEO of the cruise line would swamp the office.

The ships don't need lifeguards, they need parents to take care of their families and be responsible for what happens. In this case it is now stated this child was with both his older brother and his dad, what would a lifeguard have done that his family did not???

 

In no way, shape or form do I think the parents did anything wrong, it was an accident or illness, that's all.

 

A lifeguard is trained to spot a swimmer in need and rescue them. So my answer to your question as to what would a lifeguard have done is ..The Lifeguard would have seen the child in trouble and rescued him.

[swedish weave]

This thread should be closed !!!!!!

[Va. Plumber]

This thread should be closed !!!!!!

 

I definitely agree!

 

Way to much supposition and few facts.

 

Nothing suggested here is going to happen including parents watching their children.

[ColinIllinois]

No comment from me on the issue but for you folks who think the thread should be closed you can contact the Mods by clicking on the red

triangle in any one of the posts.

 

Mods are the one who decide what gets closed and they usually make good judgements.

 

Cheers.

 

C.

[Karysa]

I definitely agree!

 

Way to much supposition and few facts.

 

Nothing suggested here is going to happen including parents watching their children.

 

The actual minnute details are really not necessary to have an open discussion on how gated and or guarded pools would help in the prevention of future drownings, near drownings or poolside accidents on a cruise ship and whether this is reasonable given the recent incident that this thread is about. Discussing a solution to prevent another tragedy such as this one is far more relevant and useful than many other threads. To me if it gets one parent to sign their child up for swimming lessons then it is worth it.

[mpk218]

R. I. P.

[punkincc]

Why would we need brainstorming? This is the first incident of a child drowning aboard a cruise ship I have ever heard of. From what I have read the parents failed their child by leaving their 6 year old, who did not know how to swim, with their 9 year old. That failure was an irresponsible act on the part of the parents not the cruise line. While this death is every tragic you don’t make an entire industry change for 1 apparent accident. Ultimately everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions, not try and transfer that responsibility to someone else.

 

You cannot protect everyone 100% of the time.

 

While I agree with you that everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions and not try and transfer responsibility to others, your comment that the parents "failed" their child is out of line, IMO. We really don't know what happened. Some reports say a parent was in the pool with the child at the time.

 

I have taken away two important things from this thread and hope that others have as well:

 

Thanks to cruisecritiquer for posting the link to 8 Quiet Signs of Someone Drowning. Simply posting it here may save the lives of other children and I wonder why I have never seen it anywhere before.

 

It was really an eye opener for me and I can attest to it, as I once got into some distress in the ocean at Cabo, surrounded by dozens of people and with my husband "watching" me from the edge of the water. It is terrifying to know that you are perhaps seconds from drowning and everyone around you is clueless. It is true that you are so focused on keeping your head above water and getting air in that you are unable to call out. A man nearby finally realized what was going on and hauled me out of the water. The DH took some serious heat for THAT one, believe me.;)

 

The second takeaway from this, posted by mjkacmom, is so true. It is the mental preservation that parents exercise in situations like this by asserting that it happened because the parents were neglectful, and therefore this could never happen to my child because I am "watching". The truth is that it can happen to anyone, even under watchful eyes, and tragically it can happen is a second. Read the 8 Signs and be ever more vigilant.

[Karysa]

R. I. P.

 

Your post yesterday on another thread about NCL watching and helping with real problems has given me hope that this is exactly what will happen regarding finding a solution to prevent having to write R.I.P. to another child who drowns on a cruiseship.

[Va. Plumber]

Cruisecritiquer's post was probably the most informative post I've seen on this thread.

 

In a pool full of people and with parents and siblings watching, a little boy drowned, and all of these people failed to realize what was happening.

 

No one's fault, no one's negligence. It just happened. Just like it does hundreds of times a year. We wouldn't be talking about it if it weren't on a Carnival cruise ship.

[halos]

I most certainly do think that a locked gated pool with an attendant present at the gate during open hours would help prevent drownings and near drownings. Fenced in pools with a locked gate help prevent drownings, we have to have them in our city if we own a pool and I would like to see this on cruiseships.

 

.

What I'm saying is that what you think means squat. Not to sound nasty, but this is the truth. The liability is just too high.

It's not going to happen.

(and I would LOVE to know how you propose to 'fence in' a cruise ship pool. :confused: