Internationally Adopted refused boarding?

[CI66774]

But Carnival is not the final authority on US Customs and Border Protection's rules. Carnival warns right on their website, "Carnival assumes no responsibility for advising guests of proper travel documentation... All guests must check with their travel agent or the appropriate government authority to determine the necessary documents."

 

Did the family state Customs was involved? It seemed to me the family indicated it was Carnival's decision (I could be wrong, though). Cruise passengers should be able to rely on the information posted on Carnival's website with respect to closed looped cruises and birth certificates. I think lots of people were confused and someone didn't know what they were doing.

[alreadypacked]

If the adoption wasn't complete, they wouldn't have been able to obtain a state birth certificate.

 

Now see, I am wondering too, if that is where the confusion is (and what might have happened at the port). However, the family states they have "an original, embossed birth certificate issued by North Carolina..", etc. Unless they are confused as to what the paper actually is, if it states "birth certificate" on it, then that should have been acceptable.

 

 

As another poster mentioned, maybe the document they had was a "Certificate of Identification" and not an actual birth certificate or maybe it was a birth certificate that had a notation on it indicating that the document is not evidence of U.S. citizenship for the child. Additional info below:

 

 

https://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/statutes/intercountry.pdf

 

Pages 4 and 5 of the document state:

 

Approximately 34 States, the District of Columbia, Guam, and Puerto Rico require adoptive parents to submit documentation from readoption or validation of a foreign adoption in a State court when they wish to request that the State Registrar of Vital Statistics issue a State birth certificate for the adoptee.

 

Approximately 11 States and the District of Columbia will accept the foreign adoption decree when adoptive parents request a U.S. birth certificate for their adopted child.

 

The State Registrar issues the birth certificate in the new name of the adoptee, if requested by the adoptive parents, and the certificate shows the date and place of birth. In approximately 22 States and Guam, a notation is made on the certificate that it is not evidence of U.S. citizenship for the child.

 

 

The North Carolina section of the document on the bottom of page 31 and beginning of page 32 states:

 

Application for a U.S. Birth Certificate Gen. Stat. §§ 130A-108(b); 48-9-107(a)

In the case of an adoptee born in a foreign country and residing in this State at the time of application, the State Registrar shall, upon the presentation of a certified copy of the original birth certificate from the country of birth and a certified copy of the final order of adoption, prepare a certificate of identification for the person.

 

In the case of an adoptee born in a foreign country and readopted in this State, the State Registrar shall, upon receipt of a report of that adoption from the Division of Social Services, prepare a certificate of identification for that person. The certificate shall contain the same information required by § 48-9-107(a) for persons adopted in this State, except the country of birth shall be specified in lieu of the State of birth.

 

Whatever the case, it seems we don't have all the facts.

[RDC1]

SmogMonster's info seems correct.

 

In the blog post, the parent states that they had the child's Ethiopian passport with entry visa, but they do not state whether his visa was an IR-3 or IR-4. As Smog pointed out, it makes a difference. See the following link:

 

http://www.uscis.gov/adoption/bringing-your-internationally-adopted-child-united-states/your-new-childs-immigrant-visa

 

The parent also states that the child has a green card (permanent resident card). This makes it sound as though the child came to the U.S. on an IR-4 visa NOT an IR-3 (IR-3's get a Certificate of Citizenship mailed to them after entering the U.S., NOT a green card). From the USCIS website:

 

http://www.uscis.gov/adoption/bringing-your-internationally-adopted-child-united-states/after-your-child-enters-united-states

 

All IR-3/IH-3, IR-4/IH-4 and IR-2 children are admitted as permanent resident aliens.

 

Depending on your child’s visa classification, USCIS will mail to your child either a permanent resident card, known as a green card, or a Certificate of Citizenship.

A child who immigrates to the United States as the adopted child of a U.S. citizen automatically becomes a U.S. citizen if the adoption is full and final before the child’s 18th birthday, if the child is "admitted" as a permanent resident before his or her 18th birthday, and if he or she "is residing" in the United States in the citizen parent’s legal and physical custody.

IR-3/IH-3 Children

 

 

• Generally, USCIS can readily verify whether a child admitted with an IR-3/IH-3 visa met the requirements for citizenship at the time of admission. For this reason, instead of issuing a green card, USCIS issues a Certificates of Citizenship for newly arrived IR-3/IH-3 children.
  

IR-4/IH-4 Children

 

 

• If your child was admitted to the United States on an IR-4/IH-4 visa, your child will receive a permanent resident card (green card)
  
• Once you have taken any final steps that you need to take to complete the adoption process in the United States, you should file a Form N-600. Refer to the form instructions for information about where to file
  
• USCIS will issue a Certificate of Citizenship if your child meets the requirements for automatic citizenship (if your child is over 14 years old the child will take the oath of allegiance before obtaining the certificate)
  

The fact that the child was re-adopted after entering the U.S. makes it sound as if the adoption wasn't fully completed abroad. Therefore, the child would have been issued an IR-4 visa, NOT the IR-3.

 

The bottom line is that the child had a green card, the parents did not bring the green card. The web site specifically says that pictures or copies are not acceptable, only the original documents. If they had brought the green card no problem.

[oncruisecontrol]

Did the family state Customs was involved? It seemed to me the family indicated it was Carnival's decision (I could be wrong, though). Cruise passengers should be able to rely on the information posted on Carnival's website with respect to closed looped cruises and birth certificates. I think lots of people were confused and someone didn't know what they were doing.

Regarding the bit I highlighted in red: The information posted on Carnival's website(or any cruise line's site) reminds passengers that it is the passenger's responsibility to ensure that they have all the necessary and required documents particular to their own situation to travel outside of the US. The cruise line assumes no responsibility if a passenger does not have all of the required papers. In short, the info on the cruise line's website does not cover all situations that passengers may find themselves in. If a passenger is in a complicated or uncommon situation, it is their responsibility to ensure that "all their ducks are in a row" so to speak. Passengers need to check, double-check, or even triple-check what is needed in their situation; it is incumbent upon the passenger and only the passenger. This is not an area where one can guess, assume, or bring only [digital] copies of documents.

[CI66774]

Regarding the bit I highlighted in red: The information posted on Carnival's website(or any cruise line's site) reminds passengers that it is the passenger's responsibility to ensure that they have all the necessary and required documents particular to their own situation to travel outside of the US. The cruise line assumes no responsibility if a passenger does not have all of the required papers. In short, the info on the cruise line's website does not cover all situations that passengers may find themselves in. If a passenger is in a complicated or uncommon situation, it is their responsibility to ensure that "all their ducks are in a row" so to speak. Passengers need to check, double-check, or even triple-check what is needed in their situation; it is incumbent upon the passenger and only the passenger. This is not an area where one can guess, assume, or bring only [digital] copies of documents.

 

Ahh - but here's the CBP statement regarding closed loop cruises:

 

"U.S. citizens on closed-loop cruises (cruises that begin and end at the same U.S. port) will be able to enter or depart the country with a birth certificate and government-issued photo ID. Please be aware that you may still be required to present a passport to enter the countries your cruise ship is visiting. Check with your cruise line to ensure you have the appropriate documents."

 

It refers paxs BACK to the cruise line. Carnival clearly states that a valid BC is sufficient on closed looped cruises. I stand by what I wrote - in this circumstance, paxs should be able to rely on what Carnival tells us - especially when the CBP refers us back to Carnival to "ensure" we have appropriate docs.

[CruisinCarps]

It refers paxs BACK to the cruise line. Carnival clearly states that a valid BC is sufficient on closed looped cruises. I stand by what I wrote - in this circumstance, paxs should be able to rely on what Carnival tells us - especially when the CBP refers us back to Carnival to "ensure" we have appropriate docs.

 

Exactly. They had an official U.S. birth certificate, according to the family. That *should* have been case closed and they get on the cruise. Also, it *appears* Carnival is the one who turned them away, not Customs. (Again, going by what the family wrote.)

[CruisinCarps]

For some reason it wouldn't let me edit to add:

 

The family has updated their blog, saying Carnival has reached them via Twitter. Said they will keep everyone updated on there.:) I fully believe in Carnival and that they will do what is right.

[oncruisecontrol]

Ahh - but here's the CBP statement regarding closed loop cruises:

 

"U.S. citizens on closed-loop cruises (cruises that begin and end at the same U.S. port) will be able to enter or depart the country with a birth certificate and government-issued photo ID. Please be aware that you may still be required to present a passport to enter the countries your cruise ship is visiting. Check with your cruise line to ensure you have the appropriate documents."

 

It refers paxs BACK to the cruise line. Carnival clearly states that a valid BC is sufficient on closed looped cruises. I stand by what I wrote - in this circumstance, paxs should be able to rely on what Carnival tells us - especially when the CBP refers us back to Carnival to "ensure" we have appropriate docs.

Re-read the link in the original post. This child may not YET have had the documentation to be considered a US citizen. The parents stated that they had the child's Ethiopian passport (which they must have known they'd need) but they only had a scanned copy of the child's green card. If a person is a legal resident of the USA, but holds a foreign passport, the original green card must be presented in order to leave and re-enter the United States. The parents admitted that they did not present the original green card; only a scanned copy on a phone:confused:. If I present my phone with a scanned copy of my original United States passport, will any cruise line accept it as proof of my right to leave and return to this soil? I doubt it. I suspect that if the parents had furnished the original green card along with the Ethiopian passport, it is conceivable that they may not have been denied boarding.

[sailinglisa]

Re-read the link in the original post. This child may not YET have had the documentation to be considered a US citizen. The parents stated that they had the child's Ethiopian passport (which they must have known they'd need) but they only had a scanned copy of the child's green card. If a person is a legal resident of the USA, but holds a foreign passport, the original green card must be presented in order to leave and re-enter the United States. The parents admitted that they did not present the original green card; only a scanned copy on a phone:confused:. If I present my phone with a scanned copy of my original United States passport, will any cruise line accept it as proof of my right to leave and return to this soil? I doubt it. I suspect that if the parents had furnished the original green card along with the Ethiopian passport, it is conceivable that they may not have been denied boarding.

 

Finally the voice of reason! All cruise lines state that the passenger is responsible for having the correct documentation for boarding. To me that means you check with the US State Department to make sure you have what you need....it is not always just the US requirements, it is the requirements of the countries that you are visiting!!!! Every country has their own requirements....and the US requirements are secondary to the foreign countries' requirements.

 

I am sure that the OP did NOT have the CORRECT documentation required by the US OR THE COUNTRIES VISITED ON THE CRUISE. That is on their shoulders and theirs alone.

[CruisinCarps]

I love how some of you are "so sure" as if you were there. Good grief. Mistakes do happen, ya know. Even though it would boggle all of our minds as to how it happened. I am sure Carnival wants everyone to have a great time and HATES having to turn anyone away. That being said, it is possible somebody made a mistake. Guess what- I've done it- you've done it. We will see, in the end, who it was who made the mistake and learn from it so we can help/warn others in the future.

 

Anyways, here is what U.S. Border Patrol/Customs website reads (excerpted from this link):

 

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1279/kw/adopted%20child

 

I adopted a child what documents are required for us to travel?

 

Adopted children: If the child is an adopted U.S. citizen, foreign-born naturalized U.S. citizen or is a LPR -

Traveling by Sea or Land: The child 15 years and younger must have a U.S. birth certificate, a consular report of birth abroad, a certification of birth, naturalization certificate or Certificate of Citizenship accompanied by the adoption decree with the adopting parents' names, a court order establishing custody, and/or a court order establishing guardianship.

 

If the family is posting the truth, they said they have a U.S. birth certificate for the child, given in North Carolina. Their names are on that said birth certificate!! Both adopted parents were traveling with the child.

 

If the child is not yet adopted, then how could they have received a U.S. birth certificate for the child, with THEIR names on it? Something is definitely screwy here...

 

By the way, out of curiosity, I was wondering if an adopted child's U.S. birth certificate would look any different, according to this, it does not.

 

http://ouradopt.com/adoption-blog/aug-2008/fostermommy/what-does-adopted-child%E2%80%99s-birth-certificate-look

 

I am curious also about someone else's comment stating that/wondering why they still have the green card. They stated they the way it works is that once you become a citizen, you no longer have that green card. Hmmm...curious indeed.

[Starlight Durban Cruising]

... I am curious also about someone else's comment stating that/wondering why they still have the green card. They stated they the way it works is that once you become a citizen, you no longer have that green card. Hmmm...curious indeed.

 

Most likely my comment that you are referring to. Green cards (PRCs) are only for permanent residents - to show that they have the right to enter the US, and to work in the US. Once a person becomes a citizen then one does not need that card anymore to enter or remain in the US as one is issued with a Naturalization certificate, and can apply to get a US passport. The Green card will need to be handed in to USCIS at the Naturalization ceremony.

 

USCIS says as follows on its Naturalization page:

 

"You must return your Permanent Resident Card to USCIS when you check in for your naturalization ceremony. ... You will no longer need your Permanent Resident Card because you will receive your Certificate of Naturalization after you take the Oath of Allegiance."

 

http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/naturalization-ceremonies

 

Therefore if the child was indeed already a citizen, then they would/should not have the Green card any longer.

[uksimonusa]

Most likely my comment that you are referring to. Green cards (PRCs) are only for permanent residents - to show that they have the right to enter the US, and to work in the US. Once a person becomes a citizen then one does not need that card anymore to enter or remain in the US as one is issued with a Naturalization certificate, and can apply to get a US passport. The Green card will need to be handed in to USCIS at the Naturalization ceremony.

 

USCIS says as follows on its Naturalization page:

 

"You must return your Permanent Resident Card to USCIS when you check in for your naturalization ceremony. ... You will no longer need your Permanent Resident Card because you will receive your Certificate of Naturalization after you take the Oath of Allegiance."

 

http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/naturalization-ceremonies

 

Therefore if the child was indeed already a citizen, then they would/should not have the Green card any longer.

 

Except that there is no Naturalization ceremony for children in this situation, as soon as the child is readopted in the US, they become a US citizen, as it appears happened in this case. There is no one to hand the green card to if there is no ceremony, so it is plausable that they still had the old green card in their possession.

[Herbaltees]

The family's situation seems so complicated. Why would they trust what was solely on a website?? I really feel bad for them but I don't see where Carmival doesn't owe them anything other than an explanation, so they can understand what is actually needed to travel in the future.

[MsTabbyKats]

IMHO:

The family should find out what was actually needed for the child to leave the country from their adoption attorney....and then send this letter to Carnival with their request for a refund.

 

Since none of us are "adoption attorneys" or "immigration attorneys", it's just our opinions.

 

I assume every country and every state has their own set of rules....and it's for the lawyer to interpret.

 

If they did indeed have the proper documentation....Carnival should reimburse them 100%.

 

Just another reason...GET THAT PASSPORT!

[Pine Bluff]

IMHO:

The family should find out what was actually needed for the child to leave the country from their adoption attorney....and then send this letter to Carnival with their request for a refund.

 

Since none of us are "adoption attorneys" or "immigration attorneys", it's just our opinions.

 

I assume every country and every state has their own set of rules....and it's for the lawyer to interpret.

 

If they did indeed have the proper documentation....Carnival should reimburse them 100%.

 

Just another reason...GET THAT PASSPORT!

 

Unfortuately, one of the self appointed adoption attorneys or immigratin experts has taken over the Carnival Facebook page making it an obsession. To take this issue on personally on behalf of Carnival Cruise Lines, as opposed to letting Carnival handle it with their experts.

 

This one thread just shows how different the law is being interpreted by different folks for different reasons.

[carmel]

Except that there is no Naturalization ceremony for children in this situation, as soon as the child is readopted in the US, they become a US citizen, as it appears happened in this case. There is no one to hand the green card to if there is no ceremony, so it is plausable that they still had the old green card in their possession.

 

Actually, if both of the adoptive parents are US citizens, the child becomes a US citizen the second they hit US soil. They do not have to be re-adopted in their home state. Some states mandate it - some do not. But it is a separate issue from citizenship.

[Herbaltees]

IMHO:

The family should find out what was actually needed for the child to leave the country from their adoption attorney....and then send this letter to Carnival with their request for a refund.

 

Since none of us are "adoption attorneys" or "immigration attorneys", it's just our opinions.

 

I assume every country and every state has their own set of rules....and it's for the lawyer to interpret.

 

If they did indeed have the proper documentation....Carnival should reimburse them 100%.

 

Just another reason...GET THAT PASSPORT!

 

I agree with you 100%.

[boo214]

Now see, I am wondering too, if that is where the confusion is (and what might have happened at the port). However, the family states they have "an original, embossed birth certificate issued by North Carolina..", etc. Unless they are confused as to what the paper actually is, if it states "birth certificate" on it, then that should have been acceptable.

 

Exactly.

 

All I know is that if I had an official birth certificate with me, that is all they should ask for- PERIOD- for a closed-loop cruise. If they asked for anything else, I would ask to see a supervisor and go on up until I spoke with Customs.

 

So: 1) Either we aren't being given all of the correct info by the family who had the issue- or they are still confused about the actual documents that have.

2) Carnival and/or Customs messed up. (But according to the family, they never spoke with anyone at Customs and only spoke with Carnival staff.)

 

People make mistakes. If Carnival goofed, they owe them their cruise money back (and honestly I think whatever costs incurred reaching port, hotels, kennel fees, etc.- that is what I would expect if I'd done absolutely everything correctly and someone else made a mistake costing me our trip!)

 

If Customs goofed, they need to find a way to refund this family if it isn't Carnival's fault.

 

I surely hope we hear what happens with this. This only occurred 5 days ago and someone (somewhere, on Facebook maybe?) said that Carnival has tried to reach them or there is some dialogue going on between the family and Carnival to find out what happened.

 

I guess we all have to stay tuned...

they had birth certificated for themselves. for the child they had his ethiopian passport and visa and a copy of the green card

[uksimonusa]

Actually, if both of the adoptive parents are US citizens, the child becomes a US citizen the second they hit US soil. They do not have to be re-adopted in their home state. Some states mandate it - some do not. But it is a separate issue from citizenship.

 

That depends in the type of visa used to first enter the US, if the child entered on an IR4, then you are correct, but if the child entered on an IR3, as seems to be the case here, as a green card was initially issued to the child, then a readoption is necessary for US citizenship to be conferred on the child.

[42CruiseCrazy]

The parent should have insisted on speaking to a US Customs & Immigration officer to confirm whether the child was a US Citizen or if the documents they had were sufficient for re-entry to the US. That would have settled the matter one way or the other.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

[carmel]

That depends in the type of visa used to first enter the US, if the child entered on an IR4, then you are correct, but if the child entered on an IR3, as seems to be the case here, as a green card was initially issued to the child, then a readoption is necessary for US citizenship to be conferred on the child.

 

 

True, I forgot about that.

[SmogMonster]

It would be nice to hear more details from the family. Some have said that too much documentation probably confused the boarding agent. I dont know that I agree with this but could be. I am sure that cruise ship boarding agents get handed all kinds of documentation that is unnecceary and are trained to sort through what they need and what is superflous. The original blogger states that the adopted child had a us birth certificate which would imply that the readoption process and us citizenship process was complete.

 

I really dont understand why Carnival didnt accept the US Birth certificate. To me, that is the big question.

[CI66774]

Look - if the child was a U.S. citizen and had a valid passport issued by a gov't agency - then that's the end of the story. Carnival should have allowed them to board. You CANNOT be issued a birth certificate without proof of citizenship. An adopted child is viewed EXACTLY the same as any child born in this country once they are deemed a citizen. If IR-3 - it's immediate upon landing in this country. If IR-4, it's upon re-adoption in his/her respective state.

 

I guess the bottom line is Carnival should make it right for this family. It appears that is what they are doing. This situation is all over the internet, etc. It's in Carnival's best interest to resolve it with all parties walking away happy.

[CI66774]

I meant to say "valid BC," - not "valid passport."

 

I think it would say a lot if Carnival refunded the cruise fare. Carnival doesn't need anymore bad press.

[Elaine515]

While I feel bad for the family not being able to board, am I confused in thinking that none of this is Carnival's fault but really Immigration and Customs? Aren't they the ones who decide what is needed (ie. paper, copy, cell phone, picture etc) and then look at the documents and decide ?

 

And between this thread and others, if indeed these parents had a copy on their cellphone and not the original or a paper copy, then why is everyone blaming Carnival and not the parents? Shouldn't the parents have had the real birth certificate, paper copy in their hands and not a picture on the cell phone???