Man overboard detection technology

[chengkp75]

Thank you for your reply.

And your honesty.

 

Would you think it could be a useful additional aid to those onboard?

 

ex techie

 

Yes, it could be useful, but it still would require extensive testing.

[Ex techie]

Yes, it could be useful, but it still would require extensive testing.

 

But how does it get extensive testing if no cruise line will adopt it?

I get the cost implications, but if the system is autonomous unless a detection occur's, then surely its a surveillance system add on, or if they haven't one, the bridge officers would be the ones to respond?

 

Doesn't seem like a lot if any extra labor?

 

ex techie

Edited December 3, 2013 by Ex techie

[chengkp75]

But how does it get extensive testing if no cruise line will adopt it?

 

ex techie

 

The same way that a company came to NCL pushing a "green" fluorescent light fixture. The manufacturer fronted the cost of the equipment (every fixture on the ship) and the cost of installation, in exchange for half of the savings in power usage over the next two years. If a company believes in it's product, and there is no market interest for it, it must create it. If the product is as great and beneficial as the company claims, then they need to put "their money where their mouth is".

[Ex techie]

The same way that a company came to NCL pushing a "green" fluorescent light fixture. The manufacturer fronted the cost of the equipment (every fixture on the ship) and the cost of installation, in exchange for half of the savings in power usage over the next two years. If a company believes in it's product, and there is no market interest for it, it must create it. If the product is as great and beneficial as the company claims, then they need to put "their money where their mouth is".

 

That is true!

 

I hope the company do approach a cruise line to install their product FOC and prove it's ability.

 

ex techie

[Tonka's Skipper]

A easy solution here is for he company to install a system on a vessel free of charge and see how it works over time.

 

AKK

[ducklite]

I would hope that they pass that cost onto the moron who goes overboard and needs the rescue rather than the rest of us. As I said earlier, it takes effort to go overboard on a cruise ship. The rest of us should not have to pay for buffoonery.

 

 

Autocorrect responsible for most typos...

[Ex techie]

Chief,

 

Just read this article on the site:

http://www.rzdmpa.com/index.php/resources/news-a-articles/83-the-cruise-ship-business-is-booming

 

Although they do not categorically say the system has been deployed, there are suggestive terms within?

 

Gone are the days when The Seaborn Spirit used water hoses and the crew on the Balmoral brandished fake wooden rifles to try and scare off the pirates.

 

When another cruise ship the MSC Melody was attacked by pirates last year, their first line of defense was the vacationing passengers' throwing deck chairs at the gun-wielding Somali pirates who were climbing up the side of the cruise ship. Today a video surveillance camera system alone is not going to prevent pirates from boarding a ship, but an integrated security system incorporating radar, thermal imaging, communications and defensive countermeasures will protect passengers.

 

I wonder if it has already been deployed on some ships that travel to high risk countries and sail through high risk waters for counter piracy measures?

 

ex techie

[chengkp75]

Chief,

 

Just read this article on the site:

http://www.rzdmpa.com/index.php/resources/news-a-articles/83-the-cruise-ship-business-is-booming

 

Although they do not categorically say the system has been deployed, there are suggestive terms within?

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if it has already been deployed on some ships that travel to high risk countries and sail through high risk waters for counter piracy measures?

 

ex techie

 

I laugh when they imply that THEIR cruise ship business is booming, when it is in fact the industry as a whole that is booming. I would think that they would be advertising their clients if any were deployed on cruise ships. I also think that they are exercising wishful thinking about the use aboard cruise ships. Their MEDS system relies on "defensive countermeasures", which means things like lasers and acoustic stuns, which I really don't see being installed on cruise ships, even if they are sailing in questionable waters. It is far, far cheaper for the cruise lines to avoid these areas (just not offer cruises there), than to install systems to protect against pirates, etc.

[Ex techie]

I laugh when they imply that THEIR cruise ship business is booming, when it is in fact the industry as a whole that is booming. I would think that they would be advertising their clients if any were deployed on cruise ships. I also think that they are exercising wishful thinking about the use aboard cruise ships. Their MEDS system relies on "defensive countermeasures", which means things like lasers and acoustic stuns, which I really don't see being installed on cruise ships, even if they are sailing in questionable waters. It is far, far cheaper for the cruise lines to avoid these areas (just not offer cruises there), than to install systems to protect against pirates, etc.

 

I didn't read it that way, it says "The Cruise Ship Business is Booming"?

 

There is another company offering a similar type of system here:

http://www.seafaringllc.com/services_2.html

 

So there must be a market for it?

 

And if CLN is to be believed, it sounds like the two newest NCL ships have a detection system installed, but the providers screwed up and they had a NDA in their contract online and they had to remove the webpage?

 

In addition, the the U.S. Coast Guard posted a Federal Register Request for Input from the maritime security Industry, and received a number of proposals, but there is no indication that these have been acted upon. Proposals were received from Seafaring Security Systems and Radio Zealand DMP Americas, along with supporting documentation which was posted on the U.S. Coast Guard website.

I have found only one cruise line which has agreed to install a state of the art man overboard on some of its ships.

Norwegian Cruise Line (NCL) recently agreed to install a system by Seafaring Security Systems on two of its newest ships which are being built. The Seafaring company describes the "Varuna Man Overboard System," or V-MOB, as a "revolutionary system designed to enhance safety, security and situational awareness aboard ships." Here's the company's description of the product.

"The V-MOB is a unique integration of advanced cameras, sensors and a customized graphic interface that automates surveillance and detection around the ship’s perimeter, alerting the crew to anomalies such as man-overboard, fires, and unauthorized boarding.

When an overboard incident occurs, the V-MOB sensors detect it, GPS coordinates to the overboard site are recorded, and designated personnel are alerted via specific alarms. The V-MOB significantly enhances the opportunity for rapid rescue of overboard personnel.

The V-MOB system detects the presence of fire sooner than contemporary fire detection systems (recent testing provided alarms two minutes before existing fire detection systems) commonly found on ships, thereby maximizing fire suppression and extinguishing efforts.

The V-MOB system also detects unauthorized attempts to board from deck railing, alerting security personnel onboard the ship to provide critical response time to meet and deal with the threat in a timely manner."

I first read about the Seafaring system in a July 24 2013 article in Maritime Executive entitled "Seafaring Security Systems Wins Surveillance Systems Bid on Norwegians New Ships." (The article is no longer available on line.)

 

ex techie

Edited December 4, 2013 by Ex techie

[truck1]

Its a good job the Wonder didn't wait until this guy was actually spotted before launching the rescue boat/lifeboat!

 

http://afterthemouse.com/node/2448

 

ex techie

 

Ah, but they had audio indication that the man was close. They most likely also used a search light after getting the ship stopped and quieted to pick him out, because you can't see s**t while sitting in a rescue boat (visibility in the day of maybe a hundred yards, and picking out a floating head isn't easy.

 

I was on that cruise. It was dumbluck that we (the Wonder) happened to come up on that course. We could hear that Darwin attempt, but because of the acoustics at sea, they couldn't tell which direction he was in. If IRC, the MOB was on the Wonders ports side, and the Sensation was a few hundred yards in front of us, also on our port side. He was picked up not more then 300 feet from the Wonder, probably at least 1000 from the Sensation.

[truck1]

I completely understand both of your reservations to additional costs added to the cruise fare.

IFAIK, DCL has only ever had one MOB incident that has never been confirmed: http://www.rebecca-coriam.com/

 

ex techie

 

Theres been at least 3 that I know of. Rebecca, and 2 others in port.

1 was a kid that jumped over the side on a dare, and someone else that fell or jumped from one of the upper decks on the Wonder. The person fell past my grandparents cabin, and we saw the body being placed in the ambulance on our way to Atlantis that night in Nassau.

[Ex techie]

I was on that cruise. It was dumbluck that we (the Wonder) happened to come up on that course. We could hear that Darwin attempt, but because of the acoustics at sea, they couldn't tell which direction he was in. If IRC, the MOB was on the Wonders ports side, and the Sensation was a few hundred yards in front of us, also on our port side. He was picked up not more then 300 feet from the Wonder, probably at least 1000 from the Sensation.

 

It is hard to feel sorry for people that get so drunk they think it is a good idea to see if they can swim or jump off.

Amazing that they make it to the water level in one piece!

But there are also those that try to end their lives, those that end up overboard because of others actions.

Civilized countries provide assistance to those too dumb, intoxicated or too desperate to rescue them.

 

And it was great that the Wonder was able to rescue that Guest from another ship by chance.

 

ex techie

[Ex techie]

Theres been at least 3 that I know of. Rebecca, and 2 others in port.

1 was a kid that jumped over the side on a dare, and someone else that fell or jumped from one of the upper decks on the Wonder. The person fell past my grandparents cabin, and we saw the body being placed in the ambulance on our way to Atlantis that night in Nassau.

 

I'm sorry to hear you report that Truck.

I hope the kid survived.

 

 

ex techie

Edited December 4, 2013 by Ex techie

[ducklite]

Theres been at least 3 that I know of. Rebecca, and 2 others in port.

1 was a kid that jumped over the side on a dare, and someone else that fell or jumped from one of the upper decks on the Wonder. The person fell past my grandparents cabin, and we saw the body being placed in the ambulance on our way to Atlantis that night in Nassau.

 

I remember the kid who jumped off in port. They caught him because he tried to get back onto the ship, dripping wet, without his room card. He was uninjured. That must have been 15 years ago now.

 

 

Autocorrect responsible for most typos...

Edited December 4, 2013 by ducklite

[ducklite]

Double post

Edited December 4, 2013 by ducklite

[truck1]

It is hard to feel sorry for people that get so drunk they think it is a good idea to see if they can swim or jump off.

Amazing that they make it to the water level in one piece!

But there are also those that try to end their lives, those that end up overboard because of others actions.

Civilized countries provide assistance to those too dumb, intoxicated or too desperate to rescue them.

 

And it was great that the Wonder was able to rescue that Guest from another ship by chance.

 

ex techie

 

 

This particular darwin award winner, apparently got into a fight with his wife/gf/lover/....miss right now. I think he did have too much to drink, and apparently told the woman Im going to jump. she said OK. So he did. considering where the balcony rooms on the sensation Class are, Im really surprised he wasny pulled under by suction.

[truck1]

I'm sorry to hear you report that Truck.

I hope the kid survived.

 

 

ex techie

 

I remember the kid who jumped off in port. They caught him because he tried to get back onto the ship, dripping wet, without his room card. He was uninjured. That must have been 15 years ago now.

 

 

Autocorrect responsible for most typos...

 

Thats the one. He did survive, though I think Capt John got a hold of him and his parents, and he was pretty much under adult supervision the rest of the cruise. I remember seeing it either on a FB post from another board member or another board.

[Ex techie]

This particular darwin award winner, apparently got into a fight with his wife/gf/lover/....miss right now. I think he did have too much to drink, and apparently told the woman Im going to jump. she said OK. So he did. considering where the balcony rooms on the sensation Class are, Im really surprised he wasny pulled under by suction.

 

As a FireFighter and first responder who put's their life on the line when someone is in danger, what are your thoughts on a automated MOB alerting system Truck? (testing aside as it may already have happened and been installed on a lines new ships if speculation is to be believed)

 

Useful, not worth the expense for a few dumb people, wouldn't trust it?

 

I personally would pay $10 a cruise per person if I knew that the ship had a system that could provide an early detection alert if someone did fall overboard.

 

Your thoughts would be appreciated as someone that works to save lives.

 

ex techie

[truck1]

Without having looked too far into the tech, I could see it either way.

On 1 hand, it would confirm that a person went over the side, and if foul play is involved, accidental etc. Even if the body was never found. (I dont want to get too graphic on that one) It could give a family some type of closure.

 

On the other hand, assuming that a person is noticed going over the side for what ever reason, and is spotted quickly enough, to that person and there families, its more then worth it.

 

With that said, I would want to think, that there are cameras already monitoring the sides of the hull. More for security reason then anything else. (I know that most ships have a camera on the stern usually somewhere around the flag pole or stern lights) It shouldnt be too hard that if a camera(s) picks up something out of the ordinary, that the camera not only zeros in on that location, but also flashes a warning until an operator looks over the camera and makes a determination. I know the emergency buttons on our radios do that exact thing to every screen in the dispatch center.

 

The million dollar question is, what are they actually using to spot a body over the side. Thermal has its limitations. Mirrors, windows,distance even water can fool a thermal imaging camera. Even using it to find someone yelling in the water, is hard. Been there done that.Its a literal needle in the haystack.

A laser field same thing. Waves and spray will fool that.

 

I havent had a chance to look over the article, but Id have to agree with Tonka. The best thing is to put it on a ship(s) and see what happens. If it catches everyone over the side. Great. Its well worth it and I doubt youll see that addition added to the cruise price. If it doesnt, then it would need work or adjustment. Kind of trial and error for lack of a better term.

 

Theres ways they can test it, without ever endangering a human. Crash test dummies come to mind.They can be warmed to the average body temp. Alot of times a ship will sit in the middle of the ocean to kill time at night. That would be a good time to drop a dummy over the side to see what happens. Or tied to a pier at night. The PC ships come in around 5/530. Thats a good time. Traffic is at a minumum, and its dark, and the ship is tied to a pier.

 

If I had to hazzard a guess, an interested line could have the maker come out and do some type of demo.(and I dont mean a video demo. An actual put a camera up, throw a dummy over the side, and see what the result is. ) We do it all the time with trucks, and equipment. Id be curios to see what the results are.

[Ex techie]

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and considered reply Truck.

I appreciate your thoughts, insight and knowledge on it, rather than just dismissing it off the bat.

 

Hopefully a tech type or someone in the know will spot if these devises have been deployed on NCL's newest ships (if the ambulance chaser is to be believed) and they do save lives!

I guess time will tell, and if it does work, even in a medium to large percentage of the time, then they will be enforced rather than just recommended.

 

ex techie

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Host Mick]

It is.

We were taught to jump feet first and crossed with the lifejacket over one shoulder, never worn around the neck for the reason you stated above.

 

And yes I did read about the system on "that site" lol!

 

 

ex techie

 

We were taught to jump overboard, legs crossed, chin down, teeth clenched and pull down on the neck of the lifejacket with both hands. The reasons being that you don't want the neck of the PFD to pull up on your chin, the more important reason is that you don't want the crotch straps to become taught.:eek:

[chengkp75]

We were taught to jump overboard, legs crossed, chin down, teeth clenched and pull down on the neck of the lifejacket with both hands. The reasons being that you don't want the neck of the PFD to pull up on your chin, the more important reason is that you don't want the crotch straps to become taught.:eek:

 

Yep, that's the preferred method. You wouldn't believe the number of passengers I've found that take the back strap and pass it through the handle loop at the top of the lifejacket. When I explain to them that all that would do is place them in the water, floating, but face down, they get a real shocked look on their faces.:eek:

Edited December 5, 2013 by chengkp75

[ducklite]

As a FireFighter and first responder who put's their life on the line when someone is in danger, what are your thoughts on a automated MOB alerting system Truck? (testing aside as it may already have happened and been installed on a lines new ships if speculation is to be believed)

 

Useful, not worth the expense for a few dumb people, wouldn't trust it?

 

I personally would pay $10 a cruise per person if I knew that the ship had a system that could provide an early detection alert if someone did fall overboard.

 

Your thoughts would be appreciated as someone that works to save lives.

 

ex techie

 

My husband is a first responder, he feels that the return is not worth the expense. The ratio overboard to passenger and/or crew is like 1:6,000,000.

 

 

Autocorrect responsible for most typos...

[chengkp75]

Okay, did a little rough research:

 

Number of "overboards" from 2000-2013: 217 (source Cruise Junkie, not necessarily valid, but also includes falls in port, and "missing at sea"), so this works out to 16.7 per year.

 

Number of cruise passengers carried per year: 15,449,000 (source Market Watch, total of all passengers worldwide, including ferries, etc, which is similar to Cruise Junkie's reporting)(this is an average, it goes from 7m in 2000 to 23m in 2013)

 

So the ratio is 1:1,000,000 or 1 in a million.

 

So now the lines will do the math, since to them this is a dollars and cents issue, and determine whether it is cheaper to pay for the system, and pay for maintenance, every year, or have the possibility of a lawsuit every million passengers. Cold, but corporate truth.

 

Now, to the family of the millionth person who goes overboard, would having this technology, which could perhaps save their loved one, be worth it? Of course. Would it make any cruisers feel safer knowing it is there? Probably not, given the attention paid at muster drills. Is the corporate math cold hearted, and any reasonable person could not think of a reason not to install this? Yes. But the world is the world, and as I've said, until there is a famous person lost at sea, or some sort of world outcry over the number of people lost, there won't be any regulations, and there is virtually no one to lobby about it, as the IMO isn't an elected body.

 

Techie, I know you're pushing hard for this, but I'm just trying to be realistic about it. There are a lot of things out there that would be great to have, but will never see the light of day because of cost benefit.

[Tonka's Skipper]

!. Right on the Mark chief.

 

2. Has anyone a price on what these systems may cost?

 

 

AKK