Informal night was misunderstood by most.

greatam · June 18, 2004

You guys are freaking me out!!! I booked the Prinsendam, transat in November. The only reason I considered HAL was the supposedly more "formal atmosphere".

I own a logistics mangagement company-read glorified trucking company with logistics planning. Levi's and T-shirts are the order of the day. I sit here answering the phones in sweat shorts and T-shirt. If NOT for a business meetings or travel someplace, I DO NOT get out of these clothes. I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY look forward to getting dressed to the nines.

I have sailed X 6 times and Princess once. And four other cruises that were so far off the charts most people don't know what I am talking about (Icebreaker to the North Pole, tramp steamer around Asia, etc) I always do longer cruises (10-27 days) and have generally had my fantasy of formal ambiance satisfied.

HOWEVER, my Princess cruise (7 day Dawn Princess- Alaska) was a disaster AFAIK.

I paid for top of the line suite, got little extra for my money except extra room, AND the PAX were disgusting. One gentleman showed up at formal night in his robe and pajamas from home and spent the whole night in the atrium (talk about eccentric!!). Another whole group-about 20 people-thought T-shirts with ALASKA in sequins were formal wear. It really ruined it for me. Their dress definitely represented the decorum and ambiance. Sloppy table manners, rude pax, yada, yada, yada.

I can sit in my office, NOT SPEND A PENNY WITH ANY CRUISELINE, and look at my driver's, mechanics and office staff to see T-shirts, khakis, shorts, etc.

I travel a lot-117,00 air miles last year all over the world, most on business. I really want and need the fantasy of cruise ship ambiance. If HAL is as degraded as some of the other lines (fill the ship at any cost-forget enforcing the "rules"), I am cancelling my HAL transat and booking something else. HAL looses my money. Some of these cruise lines just need to step up to the plate, declare themselves as "old time values and ambiance" cruise lines and some need to be "new" cruise lines. Maybe everyone would be happy.

DON'T tell me not to cancel my cruise if you believe a majority of PAX show up "underdressed" on HAL. What do you think???

jhannah · June 18, 2004

I'd go right ahead and enjoy the cruise. There will always be some people ... on all lines ... who don't want to conform. But this will be the exception rather than the rule. You will find that HAL has something a little different than other lines. Certainly a cut above a tramp steamer! [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

'Vegas Jim

superstein61 · June 18, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by revneal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> My question is why are the two formal nights not enough to passify those that desire a more formal or elegant cruising experience?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's an interesting question. Frankly, two formal nights a week IS sufficient for my tastes. Indeed, there ARE times when I DO enjoy just relaxing and not having to "suit up" and look all spiffy -- especially on nights after a LONG day of shore excursions.

This being said, I also enjoy something in-between. There are times when I DON'T feel like dressing up in my tux but I DO feel like putting a jacket on over my dockers and blue button-down shirt. Out of habit I'll also put on a tie; that's no big deal, and makes for a nice finish to the outfit for dinner. Other nights, however, I want to wear a suit and tie or clerical collar but NOT a tux; if all we had were formal nights and casual nights, I would have to waste a formal night (when I'd otherwise wear my tux) to get to wear a nice business suit.

Thankfully, I normally take cruises of 10+ days, meaning that I usually get 3 or more formal nights and at least a couple of informal nights on each cruise. That's a good balance.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
\
RevNeal - A question.

I respect your desire on occassion to dress up - but if their were no informal nights and just one Formal Night - no one would stop you from dressing up on the non-formal nights, correct?

So how is your enjoyment limited or reduced if informal nights dissappear?

Feel free to get as "spiffy" as you want - but no need for everyone to follow suit.

People are individuals - with different tastes , likes and silikes. to each his/her own I say !!!

superstein61 · June 18, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mariposa:
I wish it weren't so complicated to have one 'informal' with coat (with or without tie) dining room and one 'informal' without coat or tie dining room ~ not just dining room vs Lido. Then everyone could eat with those who feel the same way about this 'informal' attire debate.

Mariposa [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

mariposa - actually, it ain't complicated. NCL does this fabulously well. On formal night, those who want to dress to the nines have their own sit down restaurant, and those who wish to remain casual and relaxed have their own sit down restaurant. Actually depending on the ship, each may have their choice of more than one "formal" or non-formal restaurant. And the codes at those are strictly enforced.

HAL should follow suit - It works tremendously well for NCL.

Simply make the Upper level formal and lower level non-formal - with open seating at both the specified early / late times.

Then people aren't shunned to the Lido buffet - and everyone gets what they want

[This message was edited by superstein61 on 06-18-04 at 07:43 PM.]

superstein61 · June 18, 2004

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hotspur:
I really don't understand why people who like to dress don't simply wear their formalwear every night so they can feel self-important, and leave the rest of us who think it's a silly, dated affectation alone. If you think it's cool to play dress-up, then by all means do so.

[QUOTE]

STANDING OVATION FOR AN EXCELLENT POST HOTSPUR !!!!! Your first paragraph says it all. And you are right on the money when you say "I remain convinced the first formal night is there solely to sell pictures."

superstein61 · June 18, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by revneal:
Hotspur, did you forget to take your meds again?? I mean ... yeeeEEeeessssh ... why don't you just tell us what you REALLY think??? [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

C'mon Rev - thats uncalled for !!! Hotspur's post is the truth and you know it

Orcrone · June 18, 2004

Let's avoid the "meds" and the "self-important" comments or the board fairies will go poof and make this thread go bye-bye.

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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Till sailing on the Maasdam

ryansmemom · June 18, 2004

Dear Greatam,

The "truth" and I mean the real "truth" is a very rare thing acheived through the application of the scientific method and mathematics. The [B]opinions[/B] expessed on this message board are based on personal experiences filtered through a persons attitudes and biases as well as their mood of the day and personal agenda.

I don't think it would be wise to either book or cancel a cruise based on the extreme views (positive or negative) written on this or any other message board. If you read a post, and feel you emotions being strongly stirred, my advise would be not to react the information offered in that post. Read the posts that are well thought out, have a calm tone and are written to inform, not to "get a reaction".

My last cruise was last December on the Rotterdam. I also sailed on the Maasdam last November. I personally enjoy an elegant, refined, quiet cruise. Do they take pictures, yes. Are there shops on board, yes. Did these things diminish my cruise, no. I live in the real world. I am a professional woman and a full fledged sane adult. I do not reside in a fantasy world. HAL ships are elegant, decorated with antiques and artifacts. I enjoyed the elegance of the Explorers Lounge at night. People, not all people, but most people dressed well. HAL staff will treat you with dignity and grace.

Enjoy your cruise.

Linda

Thanks for listening

Orcrone · June 18, 2004

Linda,

That was a well thought out, intelligent response. We will not tolerate that in any discussion about dress codes. [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Let the mud-slinging continue.

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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Till sailing on the Maasdam

RevNeal · June 19, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I respect your desire on occassion to dress up - but if their were no informal nights and just one Formal Night - no one would stop you from dressing up on the non-formal nights, correct?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one would stop me, true, but I would nevertheless be out of place -- and would, as a result, attract looks and be made to feel conspicuous and uncomfortable -- if I were to dress in a Tux on casual nights. If people decide to not dress up on formal nights, THEY are the ones who are out of place; if I decide to dress up on casual night, I am the one who is out of place.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>So how is your enjoyment limited or reduced if informal nights dissappear?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is limited by me not having an extra night (in addition to the 2 formal nights) in which I don't look out of place if I decide to wear a suit and tie.

Now ... the contrary question is EQUALLY valid: How is your enjoyment limited or reduced if informal nights and the standard two formal nights a week are maintained???

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Feel free to get as "spiffy" as you want - but no need for everyone to follow suit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And stand out like a sore thumb, be conspicuous, and have the beer drinking, wet-t-shirt contest crowd pointing their fingers and laughing at me? No thank you. And ... if your response is "we don't have those kinds of people on HAL cruises" ... well, guess what ... we WILL.

Greg+
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superstein61 · June 19, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by revneal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I respect your desire on occassion to dress up - but if their were no informal nights and just one Formal Night - no one would stop you from dressing up on the non-formal nights, correct?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one would stop me, true, but I would nevertheless be out of place -- and would, as a result, attract looks and be made to feel conspicuous and uncomfortable -- if I were to dress in a Tux on casual nights. If people decide to not dress up on formal nights, THEY are the ones who are out of place; if I decide to dress up on casual night, I am the one who is out of place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But why worry about what others think? Why dress for someone's approval? Or not to feel out of place? Clothes do not make the man.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>So how is your enjoyment limited or reduced if informal nights dissappear?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is limited by me not having an extra night (in addition to the 2 formal nights) in which I don't look out of place if I decide to wear a suit and tie.

Now ... the contrary question is EQUALLY valid: How is your enjoyment limited or reduced if informal nights and the standard two formal nights a week are maintained??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because, with more freedom of choice, everyone gains. People will be free to do as they choose. You can still get as dressy as you want - and I can wear my khakis - and I am sure the world will not stop and we both would enjoy ourselves

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Feel free to get as "spiffy" as you want - but no need for everyone to follow suit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And stand out like a sore thumb, be conspicuous, and have the beer drinking, wet-t-shirt contest crowd pointing their fingers and laughing at me? No thank you. And ... if your response is "we don't have those kinds of people on HAL cruises" ... well, guess what ... we WILL.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again - why worry about what others think. Isn't it Matthew who declared "Judge not, lest ye be judged." ???

Why not follow those words of wisdom and don't judge those who dress differently than you - and I am sure they will do the same. People of all types can coexist, no matter how well or poorly dressed each one is

RevNeal · June 19, 2004

Dear superstein61,

I know that you gave hotspur a standing ovation for the following statement:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I really don't understand why people who like to dress don't simply wear their formalwear every night so they can feel self-important, and leave the rest of us who think it's a silly, dated affectation alone. If you think it's cool to play dress-up, then by all means do so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I, however, took [B]GREAT OFFENSE[/B] at it. I viewed it as a ridicule-filled personal attack which belittled and made fun of those of us who like to dress up on formal nights. My response, however, was to make light of it so as not to continue the war. As such, my response was IN NO WAY "uncalled for."

Hotspur's post was NOT "truth." I do NOT dress up so that I can feel "self-important." I dress up EVERY WEEK, several times a week, in connection with my work as a pastor. I wear robes every Sunday and have MANY opportunities, throughout the year, to go to formal events. I don't go on cruises so that I can pretend I'm someone important by dressing up on formal nights. I don't believe it is a silly, dated affectation ... and I certainly don't believe that I am being silly, false, or pretentious when I put on a suit and tie, or a tux, for a formal night on a cruise. Hotspur ... and, now, you ... have passed judgment on me and on those of us who like to dress up for formal nights. Do you REALLY expect me to agree with that judgment???

So ... no ... in my opinion my remark was NOT uncalled for. Was I sarcastic? YES. But, in my opinion, that was much nicer than what would have happened if I had gone through hotspur's post and blasted it to kingdom come via a point-by-point response.

Greg+
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RevNeal · June 19, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> But why worry about what others think? Why dress for someone's approval? Or not to feel out of place? Clothes do not make the man.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some people don't like standing out like a sore thumb. Some people like to abide by the published dress code.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Because, with more freedom of choice, everyone gains. People will be free to do as they choose. You can still get as dressy as you want - and I can wear my khakis - and I am sure the world will not stop and we both would enjoy ourselves<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The world will also not stop if you were to abide by the dress code and not try to change it on other people.

Freedom of choice is nice ... but everyone does not gain if dress-codes are reduced to one formal night a week. Those who want to dress formally and enjoy the formal-type environment will lose: firstly, because it's a reduction in the number of nights where the atmosphere will be geared to formal wear; secondly, because there will be many who will view one formal night a week as not being sufficient reason for bringing formal wear -- and, hence, they will whine and carp for all nights to be casual. The only winners will be the whiners.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Again - why worry about what others think. Isn't it Matthew who declared "Judge not, lest ye be judged." ???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What in the world does that have to do with the price of tea in china ... I'm not the one judging other people for how they dress; rather, I don't want to be the one judged for wearing clothing that is out-of-step with the dress code.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Why not follow those words of wisdom and don't judge those who dress differently than you - and I am sure they will do the same. People of all types can coexist, no matter how well or poorly dressed each one is <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What makes you think I'm JUDGING the eternal salvation or moral perfection of anyone who prefers to dress differently than I? THAT is the context of those words, you know ... any other application is isegesis, not exegesis.

Sorry ... all I ask is that people abide by the minimal standards outlined for each night in the dress code. Is that so much to ask?? And, is it JUDGING someone to ask it?

Frankly, it would appear that you can't coexist with a cruise line that has a dress code outlining 2 formal nights, 1 informal night, and 4 casual nights per week.

Greg+
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RevNeal · June 19, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Let the mud-slinging continue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it fun? In mud-slinging those who argue for all-casual-dress have a definite advantage ... they don't have to worry about getting mud on their cummerbund! [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

DUCK!

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ woosh! ------>>> *SPLAT*!

That one was CLOSE! [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Better help me with the catapult.

Greg+
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localady · June 19, 2004

My best girl friend and I have taken cruises where we really were not interested in dressing up, it was more of a "girls snorkeling week".

I understood the expected dress beforehand and make my choice accordingly. Why should I go to dinner in my lounge wear and stick out like a sore thumb. On those formal nights, we'd check the menu and order to our hearts delight, eatting on our balcony! We actually found our evenings spent on our balcony eatting a meal while the sea passed us by to be some of the best[img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

I think we can all coexist and enjoy our vacations our way[img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] We are so blessed to get the opportunity to go on them.

Happy Cruising!

7/04 Ryndam Alaska B2B
12/04 Rotterdam Panama Canal
7/05 Prinsendam Baltic
11/05 "Veendammers" Carribean

RCCL x2(1999), Volendam (2000), Millinneum (2000), Maasdam (2001), Disney (2001), Statendam (2003), Amsterdam (2003)

superstein61 · June 19, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by revneal:
Dear superstein61,

I know that you gave hotspur a standing ovation for the following statement:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I really don't understand why people who like to dress don't simply wear their formalwear every night so they can feel self-important, and leave the rest of us who think it's a silly, dated affectation alone. If you think it's cool to play dress-up, then by all means do so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I, however, took _GREAT OFFENSE_ at it. I viewed it as a ridicule-filled personal attack which belittled and made fun of those of us who like to dress up on formal nights. My response, however, was to make light of it so as not to continue the war. As such, my response was IN NO WAY "uncalled for." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RevNeal - Sorry, but I guess I should have clarified my response to Hotspur. I don't condone the ridicule and condescending attitude of anyone. So I am not supporting that. But I do applaud at his/her basic message that I really don't understand why people who like to dress don't simply wear their formalwear every night and those who do not, don't. Leaving the rhetoric out of it - I fully support that.

And sorry - but your response WAS UNCALLED FOR. i did not see it as making light of his/her post - but rather an attempt at your own ridicule of him/her. You are implying he/she must be psychotic / mental to post what he/she did. Thats wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Hotspur's post was NOT "truth." I do NOT dress up so that I can feel "self-important." I dress up EVERY WEEK, several times a week, in connection with my work as a pastor. I wear robes every Sunday and have MANY opportunities, throughout the year, to go to formal events. I don't go on cruises so that I can pretend I'm someone important by dressing up on formal nights. I don't believe it is a silly, dated affectation ... and I certainly don't believe that I am being silly, false, or pretentious when I put on a suit and tie, or a tux, for a formal night on a cruise. Hotspur ... and, now, you ... have passed judgment on me and on those of us who like to dress up for formal nights. Do you REALLY expect me to agree with that judgment???

So ... no ... in my opinion my remark was NOT uncalled for. Was I sarcastic? YES. But, in my opinion, that was much nicer than what would have happened if I had gone through hotspur's post and blasted it to kingdom come via a point-by-point response.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as the truth I refer to - I was referring to what Hotspur noted about the crass commercialism of cruising - and that formal nights is just an attempt of the crusielines to cash in with photos, tux rentals, hairstylists, corsages, etc.

Sorry - I should have made myself clearer in what I specifically was applauding

RevNeal · June 19, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Sorry, but I guess I should have clarified my response to Hotspur. I don't condone the ridicule and condescending attitude of anyone. So I am not supporting that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I appreciate that. Thank you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I really don't understand why people who like to dress don't simply wear their formalwear every night and those who do not, don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We don't do this because we DO NOT want to be thought of as being self-important, pompous, arrogant, or pretentious. We want to fit in and have a good time. So ... I'm sorry, but, even your question reflects a subtle, perhaps unconscious assumption that those of us who like dressing up WANT to be noticed, thought of us being special, or are pompous.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> nd sorry - but your response WAS UNCALLED FOR. i did not see it as making light of his/her post - but rather an attempt at your own ridicule of him/her. You are implying he/she must be psychotic / mental to post what he/she did. Thats wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I accept that as your opinion, but I do not share it. As for what I was implying ... if anything, I was implying that hotspur's ridicule was childish and indicative of a need for Methylphenidate (aka Ritalin).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> As far as the truth I refer to - I was referring to what Hotspur noted about the crass commercialism of cruising - and that formal nights is just an attempt of the crusielines to cash in with photos, tux rentals, hairstylists, corsages, etc.

Sorry - I should have made myself clearer in what I specifically was applauding <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that was what you were applauding, why didn't you quote hotspur's statement to that effect, and not the precise portion where hotspur ridiculed those of us who like dressing up?

As I wrote earlier, I agree that commercialism is pretty crass on HAL ... as it is on many cruise lines. I just ignore it and dress up for MY OWN REASONS on formal and informal nights.

Greg+
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superstein61 · June 19, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by revneal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> But why worry about what others think? Why dress for someone's approval? Or not to feel out of place? Clothes do not make the man.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some people don't like standing out like a sore thumb. Some people like to abide by the published dress code.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, well I guess I have always had the attitude that its more important for me to feel good about myself and do what I like to do rather than worry about what others may think of me. I guess not everyone shares that sentiment - and do have concerns over how others perceive them. I guess I can understand that

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Because, with more freedom of choice, everyone gains. People will be free to do as they choose. You can still get as dressy as you want - and I can wear my khakis - and I am sure the world will not stop and we both would enjoy ourselves<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The world will also not stop if you were to abide by the dress code and not try to change it on other people.

Freedom of choice is nice ... but everyone does not gain if dress-codes are reduced to one formal night a week. Those who want to dress formally and enjoy the formal-type environment will lose: firstly, because it's a reduction in the number of nights where the atmosphere will be geared to formal wear; secondly, because there will be many who will view one formal night a week as not being sufficient reason for bringing formal wear -- and, hence, they will whine and carp for all nights to be casual. The only winners will be the whiners.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well on this point I think we will still disagree. And anyway, as I posted earlier - I really think HAL would be best off adopting the NCL approach to formal nights. Make the Upper DR Formal, and the lower DR informal. Have open seatings at two times - with the codes for each DR strictly enofrced. Each group gets what they want - with no one being shunned to the Lido buffet and without upsetting the other. It really works fabulously well on NCL.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Again - why worry about what others think. Isn't it Matthew who declared "Judge not, lest ye be judged." ???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What in the world does that have to do with the price of tea in china ... I'm not the one judging other people for how they dress; rather, I don't want to be the one judged for wearing clothing that is out-of-step with the dress code.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me??? It seems you are judging others by how they dress - by not accepting them if they don't follow a certain dress code. Additionally, I think you are judging others who would like less formal nights and the abolishment of informal night.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Why not follow those words of wisdom and don't judge those who dress differently than you - and I am sure they will do the same. People of all types can coexist, no matter how well or poorly dressed each one is <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What makes you think I'm JUDGING the eternal salvation or moral perfection of anyone who prefers to dress differently than I? THAT is the context of those words, you know ... any other application is isegesis, not exegesis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may be the context of those words - but the same concept applies in other circumstances.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>

Sorry ... all I ask is that people abide by the minimal standards outlined for each night in the dress code. Is that so much to ask?? And, is it JUDGING someone to ask it?

Frankly, it would appear that you can't coexist with a cruise line that has a dress code outlining 2 formal nights, 1 informal night, and 4 casual nights per week.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I have said it here several times that I happen to be one person who has always followed the dress code on every cruise I have been on. That said, I do not like the code and think it should be changed / lessoned. I love how NCL handles the dress code - IMO, they "get it" and there are no debates such as this.

All that said, the more I read here and the more I debate here, the more I know I am NOT going to follow the code this July on the Zuiderdam. I will still dress neatly - good enough for any nice restaurant - in khaki's and a nice shirt - but I am jettisoning my coat and tie. It makes no sense on a Caribbean itenary in the middle of the summer

superstein61 · June 19, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by revneal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Let the mud-slinging continue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it fun? In mud-slinging those who argue for all-casual-dress have a definite advantage ... they don't have to worry about getting mud on their cummerbund! [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

DUCK!

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ woosh! ------>>> *SPLAT*!

That one was CLOSE! [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Better help me with the catapult.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes - those in tuxes make such nice targets - but unfortunately the mud blends right in with everything else they are shoveling [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Just a joke Rev, just a joke [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

superstein61 · June 19, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by localady:

I think we can all coexist and enjoy our vacations our way[img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] We are so blessed to get the opportunity to go on them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Unfortunately, I hear those balconies on the inside cabins are mighty small - so I guess its the Main Dining Room for me [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

superstein61 · June 19, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by revneal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Sorry, but I guess I should have clarified my response to Hotspur. I don't condone the ridicule and condescending attitude of anyone. So I am not supporting that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I appreciate that. Thank you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I really don't understand why people who like to dress don't simply wear their formalwear every night and those who do not, don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We don't do this because we DO NOT want to be thought of as being self-important, pompous, arrogant, or pretentious. We want to fit in and have a good time. So ... I'm sorry, but, even your question reflects a subtle, perhaps unconscious assumption that those of us who like dressing up WANT to be noticed, thought of us being special, or are pompous.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are reading way too much in my post - I believe people should do what makes them happy and what feels right to them. if you enjoy dressing up, do so. I won't judge you. Just like I would ask that you not judge me if I eschew a jacket for just a comfortable but nice shirt

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> nd sorry - but your response WAS UNCALLED FOR. i did not see it as making light of his/her post - but rather an attempt at your own ridicule of him/her. You are implying he/she must be psychotic / mental to post what he/she did. Thats wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I accept that as your opinion, but I do not share it. As for what I was implying ... if anything, I was implying that hotspur's ridicule was childish and indicative of a need for Methylphenidate (aka Ritalin).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, again we will have to disagree. I understand what you are saying - but you just reinforced my belief by referring to a need for Ritalin. I just don't think thats productive.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> As far as the truth I refer to - I was referring to what Hotspur noted about the crass commercialism of cruising - and that formal nights is just an attempt of the crusielines to cash in with photos, tux rentals, hairstylists, corsages, etc.

Sorry - I should have made myself clearer in what I specifically was applauding <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that was what you were applauding, why didn't you quote hotspur's statement to that effect, and not the precise portion where hotspur ridiculed those of us who like dressing up?

As I wrote earlier, I agree that commercialism is pretty crass on HAL ... as it is on many cruise lines. I just ignore it and dress up for MY OWN REASONS on formal and informal nights.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually did try and go back and edit my post before anyone had responded - but alas 30 minutes had passed.

F5Loar · June 19, 2004

Wow! I leave town for one day and come back to this and Walt still hasn't closed it. I told you we would make it to page 4! I can't believe I read about these whinny people who say the didn't really understand what "informal" meant anyway. So let me understand your mentality here. HAL sends everyone a nice phamplet titled "Know Before You Go" which spells out the 3 dress codes so simple (page 15 for those of you who missed it) a 5 year old could pack your suitcase with the proper attire. You get to your room and your daily paper is on your bed which again spells out the 3 dress codes. And then you get it again the night before what you are to wear to dinner the next night so you can get in the mood to dress for sucess. And heaven forbid if you didn't get it by now you should have the intellengence to just go down to the DR or even the front desk and ask someone what is proper to wear on this complicated "informal" night. If you don't get it by then you are simply being a jerk. I know of no better word. You are using your ignorance as a cop out for following the dress codes. Don't tell me how you feel so much better with no jacket on or how you saw so and so enter without one. We are telling you here it's wrong. So and so didn't get the message here, you are. So if you choose to still show up after all these "suggestions" on how it should be then you are just being a jerk. And I thought only Bubba cruisers acted this way. After seeing it myself on Maasdam a few weeks ago I am totally convinced the world is full of jerks and many of them are cruising. And don't call me a snob because I'm a Carolina Redneck and proud of it.
I prefer cruising to NASCAR and Coon hunting but deep down I'm just a redneck. And don't call me a slob because I do adhere faithfully to every cruiselines dress code. NCL/Princess does not work fine if you do the formal room at 7PM when everyone else is doing it. Waiting in line for over an hour is not my idea of fun cruising. On one night on NCL the line was so long in the formal room we opted to go back and change to eat in the more causal room. I guess we could have gone to the casual DR in our formals, tux and all but my how we would have stuck out like a sore thumb. I wonder if the door guy would have turned us away for being overdressed or coming into the wrong DR? The point I am making here is you all can go ahead and tell us why you are in the right to ignore the dress codes while we watch you stick out like a sore thumb with thoughts of "jerk" going through our minds. It won't damper our meal or cruise one bit but at least we had fun talking behind your back. Go ahead and make my day. I like a little laugh once and a while.

[img]http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=ff00ff&cdt=2003;07;19;13;00;00&timezone=GMT-0500[/img]
Till we sail on the Zuiderdam

Til we sail on the Mariner of The Seas RCL
[img]http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=808000&cdt=2004;3;7;12;01;00&timezone=GMT-0500[/img]
until we sail on the Disney Wonder
[img]http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=00ff00&cdt=2003;10;09;12;01;00&timezone=GMT-0500[/img]
til we sail the ms Maasdam
[img]http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=808000&cdt=2004;05;29;11;30;00&timezone=GMT-0500[/img]

Host Walt · June 19, 2004

OK. I'm closing it.

As with most threads on attire that go this long, the subject, for reasons unknown to me, become heated.

I suggest that, for a more comprehensive discussion on the subject of attire, that you all go to the [url="http://messages.cruisecritic.com/2/OpenTopic?q=Y&s=927093444&a=corfrm&cf=8170905551"]Cruise Fashions[/url] message board.

Thanks.

Walt Tuthill
Cruise Board Moderator

Contact at [email]Shiptender@aol.com[/email]

superstein61 · June 19, 2004

Yes indeed F5Loar - The world is full of jerks, thanks for confirming that for me and giving me my laugh this evening.

Joedog · June 19, 2004

Wow, I can't believe how much this thread has grown in a day (night). So much has been written that I can't remember what I read and wanted to comment about.

I guess what I wanted to say, to put my two cents worth in, is that I personally am not comfortable eating dinner in a jacket and won't if I don't have to. Some may feel that I am ruining or somehow cheapening their cruise experience by not wearing a jacket on informal night and I am sorry but all indications are that the jacket requirement on informal night seems to be going away. Yes there may be a "rule" or other guidance from HAL stating a jacket must or should be worn on informal night but in practice that seems not to be being enforced.

A wise person in the Navy once told me that if I step over a piece of trash on the deck and do nothing about it I am setting the standard of cleanliness at that level. Well, by not enforcing the jacket requirement on informal night HAL is setting the standard of dress for informal night as "jacket not really required", which is fine with me as I am more comfortable without one.

Someone earlier was commenting that people who did not want to follow the dress code should choose a different cruise line. I dont know about most people cruising on HAL but I chose HAL because the price was right for the itinerary.....period! I didnt give one thought to what would be required as far as evening dress goes. I dont have enough money to have that luxury.

I would suggest that if you do have enough money to have a choice in cruise lines and you are offended or feel cheated by people around you not wearing jackets on informal night that you find yourself a cruiseline that enforces that rule keeping in mind, if HAL is not enforcing the jacket requirement than that requirement does not exist, at least not for HAL.

Lastly, for those that read this thread and think those of us who choose not to wear a jacket on informal night are "rule breakers" who knew what the dress code was and should have chosen a different cruise line if we didnt like it. I have a question for you......do you ever drive over the speed limit or break any other driving or parking rule? Do those rules not count because everyone does it?

Just some food for thought.

Ruth and Joe

__ /7__X__/7________
\::::::::::::::::::::::::/ Holland America - Zuiderdam 7/24/04
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[img]http://escati.linkopp.net/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi?trgb=000000&srgb=00ff00&prgb=00ffff&cdt=2004;07;24;17;00;00&timezone=GMT-0500[/img]

NCL Dawn - 7/27/03 (Honeymoon)

Informal night was misunderstood by most.

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