Solar arrays on Princess ships?

[BeachyBrowns]

My wife and I sailed on Caribbean Princess in January 2013. Having sailed with other lines and being the environmentally conscious person I am, I thought I would email Princess about their plans to install solar arrays on their ships. I got the following reply:

Dear Mr. Brown,

 

Thank you for your comments on using Solar power onboard our ships.

 

Princess has been a leader in the industry with various environmental programs in the past. We were the first to utilize

shore power programs in 2001 and this program has grown to help clean the air in many of our ports in North America.

Although we currently do not have immediate plans to add Solar arrays to our ships, we are interested in this technology

and are reviewing the possibility of utilizing Solar energy in the future.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Princess Cruises

Customer Relations Specialist

This seemed to me to be an unacceptable answer, since other lines have clearly seen the value in it; does anyone know whether this has changed? I enjoyed our Princess cruise, but I don't see us sailing with them again until they decide to join us in the 21st Century.

[Ethel5]

...............SNIP.................................

This seemed to me to be an unacceptable answer, since other lines have clearly seen the value in it; does anyone know whether this has changed? I enjoyed our Princess cruise, but I don't see us sailing with them again until they decide to join us in the 21st Century.

 

It might be of interest to note that RCL, NCL and Carnival have had numerous violations regarding environmental issues.

 

It may not have been the answer you were looking for but at least they answered you honestly. I don't see that as being unacceptable.

[shredie]

Do you work in the solar industry?

[FLACRUISER99]

Celebrity has not had great results with solar panels on it's Solstice class ships.

[M4dC0w]

I'm actually amazed that they haven't gone Nuclear yet, for as large as the ships are

 

We all know of the typical reasons, Safety, Security, etc...

[Astro Flyer]

I am a proponent of solar energy but don't know if it's practical on cruise ships. If other cruise lines are using solar energy I am not aware of it...could you let me know which cruise lines?

 

I just can't envision where they would put sufficient solar panels to make a difference on a cruise ship. I've read about the dangers that rooftop solar panels can create for firefighters & maybe that's another consideration about whether to use them on a cruise ship or not.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Astro Flyer

[BeachyBrowns]

Do you work in the solar industry?

 

No, not by a long shot. I don't even have any financial interest at all in solar, although I'm considering investing in solar panels for my home.

 

Do you work in, or do you have specific financial interest in, the fossil fuel industry?

[shredie]

No, not by a long shot. I don't even have any financial interest at all in solar, although I'm considering investing in solar panels for my home.

 

Do you work in, or do you have specific financial interest in, the fossil fuel industry?

 

I'm the major shareholder in Standard Oil. :p

[BeachyBrowns]

I am a proponent of solar energy but don't know if it's practical on cruise ships. If other cruise lines are using solar energy I am not aware of it...could you let me know which cruise lines?

 

I just can't envision where they would put sufficient solar panels to make a difference on a cruise ship. I've read about the dangers that rooftop solar panels can create for firefighters & maybe that's another consideration about whether to use them on a cruise ship or not.

 

Celebrity Solstice-class ships supposedly generate enough power with solar to power the elevators. http://www.celebritycruises.com/about-celebrity/environmental-initiatives?tab=environmental-stewardship

That's a drop in the bucket, I know, but it's better than nothing, and you've got to start somewhere.

 

I've never heard the "danger to firefighters" objection before.

[BeachyBrowns]

I'm the major shareholder in Standard Oil. :p

Well, that explains it, then! ;)

[BeachyBrowns]

Celebrity has not had great results with solar panels on it's Solstice class ships.

 

Really? In what way have the results been less than great? (Honest question, not snark.)

[BeachyBrowns]

It might be of interest to note that RCL, NCL and Carnival have had numerous violations regarding environmental issues.

 

Noted. I know that cruising is not exactly "green"; it just seems to me like solar energy on cruise ships is low-hanging fruit, if the industry would only summon the courage to reach for it.

 

It may not have been the answer you were looking for but at least they answered you honestly. I don't see that as being unacceptable.

 

The honesty was entirely acceptable; the unwillingness to install solar arrays isn't.

[AKman2495]

I have no financial interest in solar technology or the oil industry. I am an engineer. I can tell you that utilizing solar power is not as simple as sticking up a few panels somewhere on the ship.

 

First, the ship is moving, which can affect the stability of the power coming from the panels. Second, the ship is moving in the ocean. As we all know, the ocean spray coats a lot of things on a ship. It would cover the solar panels too, causing an increase in maintenance for the crew. If the panels are located in a fairly inaccessible place, this could cause safety problems for the cleaning crew. As such, the placement of such panels must be carefully thought out.

 

The power produced by the panels is different from that generated by the ship's generators. That means equipment that can transform the power from the cells into usable power for the ship.

 

Finally, Although solar panels have increased in efficiency greatly, it is still uncertain as to how much power any panels install on the ship would actually generate meaning that the panels, if installed, would mostly be for show.

Edited June 18, 2014 by AKman2495

[insidecabin]

Whats the true lifetime neutral return when you include the cost/carbon of manufacture and disposal?

 

Does solar ever really save in it's lifetime?

[Astro Flyer]

Celebrity Solstice-class ships supposedly generate enough power with solar to power the elevators. http://www.celebritycruises.com/about-celebrity/environmental-initiatives?tab=environmental-stewardship

That's a drop in the bucket, I know, but it's better than nothing, and you've got to start somewhere.

 

I've never heard the "danger to firefighters" objection before.

Thanks for the link to the information about the Celebrity Solstice-class ships & hope that solar energy can be an alternative.

 

If you search online you'll see several discussions about the dangers to firefighters from solar panels. I have no idea whether these considerations could impact the decision to have them at sea or not. Here's one of the links to a discussion on AccuWeather & on the news the dangers to firefighters are mentioned whenever there is a fire with solar panels on the roof.

 

http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/firefighters-danger-solar-panels/19689021

 

And I'm not "objecting" to anything & just participating in what should be an objective civil discussion about all aspects of solar energy on cruise ships.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Astro Flyer

[Ethel5]

Noted. I know that cruising is not exactly "green"; it just seems to me like solar energy on cruise ships is low-hanging fruit, if the industry would only summon the courage to reach for it.......................................................................................................

The honesty was entirely acceptable; the unwillingness to install solar arrays isn't.

 

 

This really is a good topic. My thought is that if solar panels were economically rewarding for the bottom line, they would install them.

[RDC1]

The amount of power generated by solar panels on a cruise ship would not even be a rounding error in the amount of power/fuel consumed on the ship. Any decision to put panels on a ship would be for PR purposes, not any real environmental benefit.

 

When you consider weight, mounting locations, wind resistance, etc. they might even be in total energy negative for a moving ship.

[BeachyBrowns]

I have no financial interest in solar technology or the oil industry. I am an engineer. I can tell you that utilizing solar power is not as simple as sticking up a few panels somewhere on the ship.

 

"Simple" is not required; a multi-billion dollar industry has the wherewithal to find solutions to complex problems, and there are certainly more complex ones out there, too.

 

First, the ship is moving, which can affect the stability of the power coming from the panels.

How? What does that mean, exactly?

 

Second, the ship is moving in the ocean. As we all know, the ocean spray coats a lot of things on a ship. It would cover the solar panels too, causing an increase in maintenance for the crew. If the panels are located in a fairly inaccessible place, this could cause safety problems for the cleaning crew. As such, the placement of such panels must be carefully thought out.

The placement of specific solar panels would have to be carefully thought out, even without the need for cleaning. It could be carefully thought out.

Generally, though, the solar panels would be mostly on the upward-facing surfaces of the top level of the ship. To the extent that sea spray coats such surfaces anyway, and they have to be cleaned anyway, the difference would be one of degree, not of kind. It's not as though no one has thought of how to get up there.

 

The power produced by the panels is different from that generated by the ship's generators. That means equipment that can transform the power from the cells into usable power for the ship.

OK. So the ship gets that equipment. Again, not an insurmountable barrier.

 

Finally, Although solar panels have increased in efficiency greatly, it is still uncertain as to how much power any panels install on the ship would actually generate meaning that the panels, if installed, would mostly be for show.

"It is still uncertain" does not equal "mostly for show." If they could supply even 1 or 2% of the ship's electrical power that was being supplied by burning bunker fuel before, that's not nothing. And, as you say, solar technology is improving all the time. It's no good to just say, "oh, we'll wait until some future time when things are better." That's always going to be an available excuse, but it's never going to be a good one.

[insidecabin]

The way to make ships eco friedndly is go back to sails and eat dried biscuits.

 

All those power hungry services would have to stop.

No aircon, no elevators, no washing 1000s towels, table cloths, napkins every day ....

 

We sat in port last week and they had to keep 6 thrusters running to stay safe due to the winds pushing the ship off the berth.

 

can't do that with eco power :)

 

 

I suspect lines are happy to install some panels as they provide(with batteries) a backup system adding to safety during power outages.

[Kenswing]

While we're at it maybe we could install a few wind turbines too..

[RDC1]

While we're at it maybe we could install a few wind turbines too..

 

Maybe we can create a perpetual motion machine with the wind turbines getting driven by the wind generated by the ships speed. :D

 

The drag induced by the turbines, would require more energy consumption to move the ship, then the energy produced by the turbines, otherwise more than 1 law of physics would be broken.

 

Small live on board sailing ships use wind generators, mostly to generate power to charge batteries while anchored or while sailing. Does not work for a ship that uses engine power, clearly an energy negative there.

[BeachyBrowns]

The amount of power generated by solar panels on a cruise ship would not even be a rounding error in the amount of power/fuel consumed on the ship. Any decision to put panels on a ship would be for PR purposes, not any real environmental benefit.

52 kW on Solstice-class ships is not a rounding error; it's enough to power the elevators, if you believe Celebrity's website.

When you consider weight, mounting locations, wind resistance, etc. they might even be in total energy negative for a moving ship.

The weight of solar panels, compared to the total weight of a massive cruise ship, IS a rounding error. The aerodynamic disadvantage of flat solar panels on the roof of a ship with so much frontal surface area is a minuscule rounding error.

 

"they might even be in total energy negative": but most likely not.

[Loonbeam]

The lines HAVE looked into it, I know that for the most part they found it not practical for a couple of reasons.

 

1> There is surprisingly little 'space' to put solar panels. On many ships, any significant open deck or upper surface area either holds equipment or is used for passenger or crew space. There may only be 200-300 square feet on an entire ship that could support panels and they may not be contiguous.

 

2> Because of the ship's motion, the panels would constantly be facing different directions, which severely limits effectiveness.

 

3> The panels mostly produce low voltage power, not used in most places on the ship. That means it either needs to be stepped up to ship power (which will drastically reduce output) or separate wiring needs to be installed to lower power devices.

 

4> Salt water is not kind to solar panel coverings.

 

That's not to say its not doable, its just not a practical investment for the amount of power generated. Replacing the entire ship with LED lightbulbs would have the same net effect at probably a similar cost profile over 10 years.

 

BTW, wind turbines are not as bad an idea as it sounds at first glance. Because of the way the ship's hull shapes the air, it could be theoretically possible to recapture some of the energy used to move the ship without overly increasing drag, enough that you could reduce fuel usage a little. (Example, if you could recover 4 percent of the energy used to move the ship at a 1 percent drag increase, your net gain might still be 2.something percent. Not sure if that would justify the cost, but its not completely infeasible.

[FLACRUISER99]

Really? In what way have the results been less than great? (Honest question, not snark.)

They removed them from the deck 6 aft section because of problems with salt.

[RDC1]

52 kW on Solstice-class ships is not a rounding error; it's enough to power the elevators, if you believe Celebrity's website.

 

The weight of solar panels, compared to the total weight of a massive cruise ship, IS a rounding error. The aerodynamic disadvantage of flat solar panels on the roof of a ship with so much frontal surface area is a minuscule rounding error.

 

"they might even be in total energy negative": but most likely not.

 

Actually it is a rounding error. 2 Azipods consume 41,000 kw during normal cruising speed. That does not include all of the other electricity use on the ship.

 

So just for the drive system with 52kw you are at .12% note that is not 12% but .12%. Add in the other systems and you are at less than .1 i.e less than a rounding error for most calculations. Add in that the solar panels require good sunlight to generate maximum, the ship in a normal course will not have the panels in good sunlight for even a percentage of the day reducing the output well below maximum. On the other hand if the installation of the panels provide any wind resistance they would easily cause more energy to be consumed then they generate.

 

By the way my degree is in Physics with a specializations in alternative energy.

 

The issue with cruise ships is not dissimilar as the problem with solar cells on cars. Following your logic all hybrid cars should have solar panels, because if they even replace, as you put it, 1% of the fuel consumption you have to start somewhere. The reason why you does see them is:

 

1. limited power generation per pound of weight and area required. The best way to improve the mpg equivalent of a moving vehicle is by reducing weight.

2. increase in wind resistance (unless the panels are molded into the body of the car which would be very expensive and not easily repaired or replaced. The second best way is by decreasing wind resistance.

3. Very poor cost benefit. Very high cost, very low level of energy produced.

4. Limited surface area for installation. Installations negatively impact other uses (think sunroof in cars, Lido pool area, windows, sports deck, etc on ships)

5. Increased complexity and maintenance costs. These have already been addressed by others (applicable in both cars and ships)

 

The bottom line is you only use solar in mobile applications if you have NO alternative energy generation source such as an RV boon docking or a sail boat that needs a small power generation capability.

 

On the other hand like so many "green" initiatives they are done, not because they really make any environmental or practical sense, but because people that don't know any better feel good about them. The list of such feel good, but more environmental results projects is extensive.