Thinking about leaving 2 year old at home...

[babytraveler]

Hi. I'm soliciting opinions from experienced family cruisers...

 

Our extended family--26 people--are going on Holland America to Alaska in June to celebrate a big anniversary. But I don't know whether it would be worse to bring will-be-2-year-old or worse to leave with other side of the family.

 

I also have a will-be-5-year-old, and I think she will have a good time if we are there to help her out. But maybe not so good if she's expected to be good and just hang out while we deal with logistical complexities of 2 year old. I'd kind of like to focus on her having a good time and behaving well.

 

Our travel is a logistical nightmare. Holland America (I didn't plan this trip) seems to be geared toward older adults, and this cruise board if filled with people looking to such cruises to avoid little kids. The HAL kid program starts at 3, so my child won't be able to go in kids play area at all, nor use the pool. The excursions such as helicopter rides and rafting are too challenging for either child, nor do I really want to take them out in buses that won't accomodate car seats. Furthermore, Will be 2-year-old doesn't stay seated after eating and immediately wants to get up, which will be awkward at formal seated dinners. I picture myself walking overtired frustrated child around boat avoiding open staircases, elevators, and railings for 7 days while everyone else frollicks. Since this is the boat people choose to avoid young kids, we could get into some ugly stuff with fellow passengers if child acts up.

 

We'll all be sleeping in one cabin. Neither child is a good sleeper, and 2 year old screams frequently at night. We don't get much sleep on vacations. She should be easily audible in the adjoining cabins. Plus there a time change of a number of hours, so sleep patterns will be way out of whack.

 

We are 2 hours away from the airport. The flight is 11 hours long with a plane change in Chicago. Then we have to get a cab to a hotel, then another cab to the boat, then do everything in reverse after the cruise. My child screams in car seat. I can't imagine what the plane ride will be like with that kind of a day of travel. I'm sure the other passengers will be nasty to us.

 

We'll have 2 kids to move through airports, plus 2 car seats, plus carry on luggage and toys, stroller, plus 11 hours worth of snacks, since planes don't always have food. Ugh.

 

The Alaska weather can easily range from 20 degrees/snow/rain to 80 degrees. All 4 of us will need appropriate outerwear, plus casual and formalwear. And toys, sippy cups, diapers, wipes, snacks. I've heard HAL doesn't have diapers wipes or toys. That's a lot of luggage since only 2 of us can carry for 4 of us. That's assuming we're not carrying the kids, too.

 

Then I just read that thread about stomach flu on 2 adjoining HAL cruises.

 

So on one level, I'd like to leave 2 year old home with other set of grandparents and focus on older child, for whom this will be a big and exciting trip...

 

BUT...

 

I don't want 2 year old to miss being with this huge extended family for such a special event, especially since it may be the last big family trip. Even if she won't remember them, it's an opportunity for distant family to see her.

 

We feel horrible at the thought of leaving child out of big family vacation, since it is the only vacation we'll take for the year. A family vacation should include the whole family, right?

 

I'm a SAHM and am with child except for 2 hours a week plus the occasional weekend when she stays at grandparents. I'm afraid she will freak at being separated from me for so long. It will be 9ish days. What if grandparents can't handle freak outs if she really misses us or her sibling?

 

That's a long time for other grandparents to take care of her. Their house is so non babyproofed it is unbabyproofable, so they have to hover over her all the time. I think she's too much work for them. Plus she climbs out of crib and if does so in night could get ahold of choaking or other kinds of hazards. They will take very good care of her, but there are so many hazards and poisons in their house. I'm worried about leaving her for such a long time there.

 

I'd stay home myself except that the trip will be very big for 5 year old and I think she'll need me there.

 

So can't think of best solution--bring her admidst overwhelming challenges, or leave her which is so sad and a little scary...

 

What would you do?

[cusyl]

The 2 year old really wouldn't get much out of the cruise and is too young to remember it. The 5 year old will be able to enjoy it and so will you without having to worry about the baby. Assume that you have great trust in the other relatives and they will surely enjoy their time with the baby.

[aka_sally]

Don't feel guilty about leaving 2 y/o at home. We are leaving in 2 weeks for 7-day (RCI) and are leaving 3 y/o at home with his father (and regular baby sitter during day)... he REFUSES to be potty trained and therefore can not take part in RCI kid camp.

 

We are taking 5 1/2 y/o - this will be her third cruise (first was when she was 3 1/2) and she is a great sailor... we are planning on taking her brother next year - assuming he has given up the diapers.

 

I'm sure the "other" grandparents will be able to handle your 2 y/o - even though it's a lot of work (the kids listed above are my grandkids) everyone should have a blast... put together a "scrapbook" for the 2 y/o - a different package that he can open every day with you photoshopped into whatever port or cruise activity that you'll be engaged in that day. Bring home "treats" for him that connect with scrapbook so the two of you can "share" cruise afterwards.

[flamomo]

I agree that you have answered your own question. You obviously have given your concerns a lot of thought.

You say the 2 yr old screams a lot. Believe me, the other passengers would not enjoy that, nor would they appreciate the night time screaming.

Although I understand that you will miss and be concerned about the child left at home, I believe you will have a much more enjoyable and relaxed cruise if you only take the 5 year old. There will be a time when your younger child will be able to cruise with you when that child is old enough to be reasoned with, and will also be able to appreciate the fun aspects of the cruise.

As far as your concern re: the grandparents being able to deal with the child having some sort of "hissy", I can tell you from the experience of being a grandmother of 5, children behave much differently when Mom and/or Dad are not present. Things that would have resulted in a "hissy" response with Mom or Dad may never lead to that with the grandparents. My grandkids, who I adore, quickly learned that Grammie handles things differently, that "hissy's" are not acceptable behavior, and we had no problems.(And no, there was never spanking or verbal unkindness applied.) You might be pleasantly surprised by how well the stay with the grandparents went.

I do think it would be appropriate to discuss your concerns re: hazardous cleaning supplies, etc., and your concerns re: night time crib escapes with them so they will be prepared and on the alert. Folks who have no children living in the home forget about things like potentially dangerous cleaning materials, because it is not an issue in an all adult home.

Bottom line, after all of the above: Go without the 2 yr. old, have a wonderful relaxed cruise, and enjoy the special time with your 5 yr. old.

[I&MsMom]

This is such a difficult decision! As a mom of of 6 and just-turned-3 year old, I can really, really feel for you.

 

Just a couple of thoughts. Do you know your cabin number? I'm not sure how HAL works, but I know on many lines you can choose your cabin. Traveling with a large party, would it be possible to sort-of surround yourself with those who would be sympathetic? Also, I've noticed that the cabins seem to be very well sound-proofed. On one cruise, there were children several cabins away who were very loud. We only heard them if we were on the balcony and their balcony door was open, or walking past their cabin in the hall. You could also consider a cabin above a public venue, to lessen your concern about noise.

 

As to the amount of "stuff" you need to bring, there are ways to mitigate that. I buy all supplies for the cruise (diapers, wipes, etc.) at the port city before boarding. I pack an extra duffle in our luggage which holds all supplies as we board, and then becomes available for souveniers on the way home (it will mean an extra checked bag on the way back.) I limit myself to 2 sippy cups, washing as we go, and replacing in ports occasionally.

 

As to toys, think SMALL. I even found a small package, maybe 1" thick and 4" x 6", of foam geometric building blocks! Much fun in the cabin, and no noise when they get knocked down! Some of their favorite small toys are stowed away and only available when traveling. When my son was 4, he got a Game Boy which he can only play with on planes, in the cabin and on long trips. Have you considered a portable DVD player? Hate to resort to that sort of thing, but in certain circumstances, if it works, go for it! Also, consider they will be accumulating things at the ports as you go!

 

My kids both have backpacks into which go some small things to entertain them en route. My daughter's is from American Girl, and her doll fits into it, so she even carries her own doll! That leaves mom to deal with the drinks, snacks, change of clothes and diaper supplies!

 

Another saving grace for us is that we've always sailed ships with laundry rooms, so I am able to pack far less (it does mean doing laundry on vacation, but I can usually get a couple of loads done before most people are up and about!) Does HAL have washers and dryers on board for passenger use?

 

As to dinner, and staying seated, we have always been able to get a booth. This way DD is able to move around a bit, but she is contained and unable to get in the way of the waiters or fellow cruisers.

 

Also, are there going to be other small children in your family going? Your 2 year old may love trailing after the slightly older ones. Can you count on a favorite aunt or uncle to give you a break?

 

Some lines allow children too young to participate in the camp programs to use the children's facilities when the regular camp is closed. At least this provides a childproof place to run and play for some time during the day. Does HAL have anything like that?

 

While these things might help with some of your concerns, in the end you know your child. (Although consider how much kids change at that age, and the trip is almost 6 months away.)

 

To be honest, we've recently discovered cruising, and love it with our little ones. We took our first cruise when DD was 25 months last Jan, and we are scheduled for our 4th on the Miracle in Feb. But we've left out of ports that were no more than a 4 hour plane ride, and we sailed Carnival each time, which allows 2 year olds in the camp AND changes diapers!

 

If I were trying to plan a cruise that would have all of the elements of a non-child friendly voyage, I don't think I could do a better job than the one you are facing! Truly formidable...

 

I would also just add my voice to those who say you have no need to feel guilty about leaving your daugther home. You are motivated by her best interests and the best interests of those traviling with you, including your older child. I hear your concerns about the grandparent's ability to cope. Are there other family members near them who could take your child to the park, or other outings, to give them a break? Are these the grandparents your kids sometimes spend weekends with? If they are, that would go a long way to reassuring me that they will be able to handle it.

 

I think the bottom line is, you need to go with your gut. Your instincts are going to ultimately nudge you to one decision or the other! And the odds are overwhelming that that decision will be the right one, especially for your child. Whatever you decide, once you make the decision, don't make yourself crazy second-guessing it!

 

However it evolves, have a great cruise!

[Bean8800]

Having been on Holland without my daughter, I surveyed the childrens programs aboard the Zuiderdam on a Carribean itinerary. I vowed to not bring her on Holland as the facilities didn't look that great, and there were not a lot of kids. I know she would have been bored, and thus, unhappy. Alaskan cruises tend to have even less kids aboard than on Carribean itineraries, so who knows. All I know is that unhappy kids= unhappy parents, unhappy family=unhappy trip. It also sounds like there will be a lot going on with your big group....that's additional stress as well. Also, the average age passengers on Holland tend to be 70....average age. Great folk, but don't like loud kids on average.

 

My advice is that your 5 year old will have a blast as will you. I think your toddler would be happier at home.

 

Enjoy your trip! You deserve it!

[2boysmommy]

I also say leave the 2 year old at home. I just went on a cruise in November- I left my *gasp* 10 month old with grandparents and took my 3 1/2 y ear old.(it was a free cruise-too good to pass up) The baby didn't miss a thing. He was spoiled rotten by his grandma and grandpa- and my older guy got mommy and daddy all to himself for a week (just like the old days)

 

Whatever you decide....don't let anyone make you feel guilty about your decision. Just have fun!

[mruhaak]

I just got back from a 3 day Disney Cruise/Orlando Vacation with a 2.5 year old. If there is someone you feel comfortable leaving your child with my advice is to leave them at home. We didn't get much out of our cruise as our child was unusally needy and, frankly, naughty. This was exhausting for both of us and to top it off I am pregnant.

 

Also hard work was the flights to/from Orlando as we had two flights that were cancelled. I am not trying to be negative as I'm glad I went on vacation, but won't take a child of that age on a cruise again!

[Stevie17]

We will be leaving on a cruise on March 5th, and we will be taking our 3.5 year old with us, but our 17 month old will be staying with her aunt. For us, this is the best decision that we could make. The baby wouldn't get anything out of this trip and would qualify for none of the programs. Good luck with your decision.

[matt32703]

I think the fact that he is still not potty trained makes this a very simple decision. If you do bring him, it will change the entire dynamic of your trip. Good Luck!

[JackieH]

Im the opposite here. I couldnt imagine leaving any of my kids behind going on any vacation. I believe Im not the norm. But hey what can I say.

We are going on the Carnival Valor,(Aug 2006) my kids will be 12, 6 and the youngest 2 yrs old. *gasp*...I couldnt imagine traveling without my children. We have been married 12 yrs, and the kids have always come with us.We look at it this way, the kids will be all grown up and out of the house soon enough, then we can travel kid free as often as we like.

[Zaniac]

I know this doesn't help as I do feel for your difficult decision, however we are leaving next week onm the valor and taking our 9 mo DD along. I couldn't leave her behind even if she won't remember a thing. She is our only child and brings out the best in both of us. I want to play in the sand, take her in the ocean etc..etc. She is such a happy baby and enjoying these firsts with her are probably a bigger thrill for us than for her. Here is a picture of her, how could I leave this little one home?

 

http://*****.net/scripts/watermark.php?image=Maddy%20Free%20Press.jpg&sitename=babyjennings

 

Again, I certainly don't want to make your decision more difficult as you have other Children which are going and we do not, so I think you will find people who support you on both sides. We are doing Carnival which is more "kid relaxed" I think. Just do whatever is necessary to enjoy your trip. Remember, I am sure there will be others for them to enjoy in the future. Good luck.

[babytraveler]

Thank you all so much for your insights, opinions, and experiences... You have all said really great stuff--not that I know yet what we're going to do!

 

This is complex for us because we didn't plan this vacation. We wouldn't be doing more than a local driving trip that we could all go on until child old enough to participate, except that it is a big family reunion thing, that we're really should/want to attend. We're the only ones in the family with a child so young that not eligible for kid program or who is unwelcome in the pool or who is too young to understand necessity to behave properly. The whole thing doesn't work for us, but it isn't something that we're inclined to skip, either.

 

So again, thanks for taking the time to share your opinions. I'll keep pondering what is best...

[wrp96]

 

The excursions such as helicopter rides and rafting are too challenging for either child, nor do I really want to take them out in buses that won't accomodate car seats. Furthermore, Will be 2-year-old doesn't stay seated after eating and immediately wants to get up, which will be awkward at formal seated dinners. I picture myself walking overtired frustrated child around boat avoiding open staircases, elevators, and railings for 7 days while everyone else frollicks. Since this is the boat people choose to avoid young kids, we could get into some ugly stuff with fellow passengers if child acts up.

 

We'll all be sleeping in one cabin. Neither child is a good sleeper, and 2 year old screams frequently at night. We don't get much sleep on vacations. She should be easily audible in the adjoining cabins. Plus there a time change of a number of hours, so sleep patterns will be way out of whack.

 

We are 2 hours away from the airport. The flight is 11 hours long with a plane change in Chicago. Then we have to get a cab to a hotel, then another cab to the boat, then do everything in reverse after the cruise. My child screams in car seat. I can't imagine what the plane ride will be like with that kind of a day of travel. I'm sure the other passengers will be nasty to us.

 

I think these issues are the ones that concern me the most. You have a child that obviously does not do well out of her comfort zone. When she is out of her comfort zone she makes those around her miserable as well, at least that's what I infer from her screaming in the night, not sleeping, etc. This will not make it a pleasant cruise. Unlike the Caribbean where it is easy to just go to a beach and hangout, there aren't as many opportunities like that in Alaska. Most of the activities are geared towards being really active or sitting on a bus, which you said you don't want to do. Another thing, if this is about spending time with family, how much of the other members of your family will you see if you are constantly having to take this child out of the room.

 

If your 2 year old were one that travels easy, I'd say it would be no problem, but since yours doesn't I would seriously consider the option of leaving the 2 year old behind with other relatives.

[aimeebd]

I think it really depends on your kid and your family. With 26 people going, aren't there at least a few who would be able to share in the entertaining and supervising of your two kids? Are there any teens going who might be bored on the ship days anyway and enjoy making a little money babysitting the 2 year old?

 

At 2 1/2 on our last vacation, my son's favorite activity was going to the playground at a park - you could take turns doing this on your port days, and let her work off some energy and have fun. I know a lot of people will say it's not worth it if you can't do all of the major excursions, but we went to Alaska when my son was 6 months old, so we didn't do any of the big shore excursions, and I still think the cruise was a great vacation. The scenery is great even if you never did anything in port, and you're going for the family experience anyway.

 

We bring a kid's backpack full of toys to restaurants with us, and my son usually does great. For traveling, I always go to the dollar store and buy about 20 new toys, the new ones are always so much more exciting. Sure, they don't last long, but then I throw them out, and there's less to bring home!

 

My son never slept well on vacations and that always made things really hard for all of us, nothing is fun when you are tired and so are your kids - that is the one thing that might get me to think about leaving the 2 year old at home!

[JCSM-Mom]

Hi. You have a very tough choice here. Like most said, once you make you need to try not to stress over it.

 

We recently (November) took a cruise with our barely 3 yo and 17 month old, both in diapers. Not only that, we vacationed with family the week before in PA, so we had luggage for two different climates, formal wear, diapers, toys etc.... All the things you mentioned. We had 7 checked pieces of luggage, two sit and strolls, 2 rolling back packs and 2 kid back packs, and two kids. I won't play it down and tell you that traveling to and from was easy. We had to fly coast to coast and travel time was about 11 hours for us as well, even longer on the way out since they tossed in an unexpected 4 hour layover. We commented on this trip that we were thankful that by our next family trip (Dec '06) we wouldn't need to drag along quite as much stuff. We did use sit and strolls (combo car seats and stollers) and while I like them a lot, they were a bit cumbersome for me to carry. If we use them again, we will check them as luggage and just use them once we get there. Boarding the plane, buckling in the two car seats etc... Was time consuming....and they didn't fit the best. Not convinced that it was safer. They will be old enough (and big enough) to sit in the seat with the regular lap belt on our next trip. Also, we'll have a my teenage step daughter with us on the next one! That will be a big help.

 

We did pack backpacks for them with the special coloring markers that only mark on special paper, cheap cd players with their favorite kids music, small cars, stuffed animals etc. My children are generally well behaved and travel well. I don't think I would try a trip like that with them otherwise. But, traveling was still tiresome. Although, once we were there it was great. We all really enjoyed the ship and ports.

 

Also, we went the Caribbean and could take them to the beaches and such in ports. I didn't have kids yet when I went to Alaska, so I can't offer anything about kids things to do there.

 

It's not a PC practice with everyone, but have you tried letting your little one sleep with you when on Vacation? I think it might just be unsettling to go to bed in an unfamiliar place, but if with you she might feel more "at home". Just a thought.

 

Only you know what's best for you and your family. It seems like you've put a lot of thought into this. Just be happy with whatever decision you make.

 

Good luck and best wishes.

[mruhaak]

Our 2.5 DS slept with us almost every night of our vacation. He was very insecure which was not normal for him. I think the trip was stressful for him as he really was not himself.

 

If you leave them at home. I think it depends on whether there is someone that you feel comfortable leaving them with too.

 

We chose to bring our son this year because last year we left him home and really missed him. Because we were bringing him along we chose the Disney cruise. But I'm not sure if I would cruise again with a child this age, there were fun moments, but it was also stressful for us and for HIM.

 

If you did chose to do it I would try to make your flights as simple and non-stop as possible. We could have saved ourselves some stress by having non-stop flights instead of going for the best buy we could find.

 

Hauling the carseat through the airport was not easy, especially because I was pregnant and not up to carrying a lot of heavy things. I do think in our case that the carseat was necessary in order for our son to feel secure and to be contained on the airplane. So my DH had to carry that and his carryon and at times he was carrying my backpack too, while I was managing our child and the stroller. All of this had to go through security as well. If I had to do it all over again I would check the stroller, but right now (while pg) I can only hold him for so long and he wanted to be carried and my DH's hands were full with everything else.

[cupidsarrrow]

We are leaving in a month for our cruise, we are leaving our three year old at home and taking our two older children with us. We feel guilty about leaving her at home but, she is too young to even remember the trip. She is also a runner so I would be spending most of my time running after her as opose to relaxing. I know she would have fun if she came but, in the long run she would have more fun in two years from now and maybe even remember part of the trip then too. We did say one thing though we will NOT be taking any family photos together cause she is not there. Have fun on your cruise!

[Sandyone]

I haven't read the other replies, so I don't know if I'm repeating anything.

 

I would simply have to pass on this trip. Neither option sounds fair to your 2 yr old.

 

I don't know how "child-unfriendly" this cruiseline is, but your child seems like a handful. Yes, a lot can change between now and then (kids change and grow so rapidly), but I wouldn't count on that!

 

I know you're dying to go, but there doesn't seem to be a good way for it. You'll probably catch grief from the family for not going and you'll probably wonder if you really need to back out. And you'll be upset at all the fun you'll have missed. But I still think not going is the best bet. That is one hellacious travel itinerary, even for an adult. It would be a remarkable 5 year old to handle it well, too.

 

I don't know if this is what you wanted to hear, but it's what I have to say.:)

 

Sandy

[parrotthead]

In the situation you described, it sounds like the 'littlest one' would be miserble...and that in turn will make you ( and dad and 5yo) miserble. Its ok to leave baby-dear with the grands...they will be fine. As mentioned before you will notice the time/space between you while your gone way more than 2yo. She/he(?) (probably) has a very limited concept of time at her/his age, so while she will notice you've gone somewhere, she will just think it's a long 'grandma play'. And you will have the time of your life( and 5yo will always remember the time you went on this big adventure with her)...baby will not. I say save the money(ie:airfair,cruise fees, travel expenses) and bring baby a suprise for when you get home.

The idea of making a 'prize package'(something small perhaps a beany baby and a piece if candy or cookie, etc) for little one to open while your gone is an excellent one...we used this idea with one of my DDs when she was little...also we made a calander with a picture of us pasted on our return day and Paw-Paw helped her mark an 'x' on each day until we returned...I think they did that when they opened the prize pack each day.:) (She's 18):D

[babytraveler]

Thanks everybody. Hearing the insights for experienced parents and cruisers really does help. I'm 95% decided to leave daughter with grandparents. I hope it will work out for her (thanks for the assurances) but I sure will miss her and feel guilty, anyway.

 

If I only had her as the one child, I would definitely bring her and manage. But having to manage the needs, activities, moods, sleep etc. of 2 children is just too much under the circumstances. Probably better to focus on the older one having a great experience and behaving (I infer behavior is a hot topic on cruise ships).

 

Still, I'm thinking and pondering that remaing 5% right up until the day the final payment has to be made. I would hate to make a mistake and have a great flight and then find the whole ship filled with happy toddlers having fun and have left her home!

 

I have about one more month to agonize over the decision...

[mruhaak]

It is SO difficult to leave them. We did it when our son was 18 mo. old. We missed him, but we did have a wonderful time on the cruise. This year we took him at 2 1/2.... and really should have left him home. It was a stressful trip for him and us...and we did not enjoy it nearly as much. We do have a lot of good memories... but I would do things differently now knowing what I know. (Probably not take a cruise but a different kind of trip to bring him along...)

 

Good luck! I hope whatever you do works out well for you!

[TobysFriend]

I about 500% believe that you are doing the right thing if you leave her with Grandma.

 

Some children travel well and some --- well they scream in their car seat for an 11 hour flight and by the end of it the entire plane is voting whether or not to pitch her out the window.

 

I'm sorry, but your description of what you would be up against bringing this child on this particular cruise had me wanting to run and hide in my closet from fear. And I'm an experienced Mom of 3. I just would not attempt it.

 

They will take very good care of her, but there are so many hazards and poisons in their house. I'm worried about leaving her for such a long time there.

 

Perhaps it would be happier for everybody if they came to your house for those days. Your daughter would be more comfortable in her own bed, and they wouldn't have to deal with all the toddler hazards.

[Roz]

Believe me when I tell you that you will not find a HAL ship in Alaska "filled with happy toddlers". That said, due to the normally small number of children on the ship, the staff and other passengers tend to dote on them.

 

Since your child isn't old enough for Club HAL, I don't think this cruise will be very enjoyable for you and your husband, and sailing in Alaska isn't like the Caribbean. No family time on the beach where you can take the toddler wading in the surf and let him/her scream their little lungs out. Also, you'll be relegated to the Lido for meals, and will miss the dining room experience.

 

Roz

[babytraveler]

You know, I'm just as concerned about GETTING to the cruise as being on it. Now, relatives have pointed out that everybody flies with children. But we're on the opposite coast, and we live WAY out in the suburbs, and we're far from the airport, and we have to change planes, and both legs are long flights... The luggage and car seats with 2 kids and probable screaming really does have me overwhelmed... And yes, I'm sure we'd be voted off the plane by the other passengers...

 

If we sailed from the east coast, I'd definitely bring her and manage just the cruise issue.

 

It is a no brainer to leave her with grandma. Except concern that thing might not go well while we're away and we can't get back quick (though you've all assured me that toddlers do not freak out when visiting grandparents--it's just mommy concern). Except that I feel so bad about ditching child. And DH feels even worse than I do about it!

 

Again, thank you for your candid responses, both pro and con. It is so good to hear clear vision opinions from people who aren't caught up in the family dynamics and emotions and can see the situation for the way it really is!