Getting a bit obsessed with Cunard??? :)

[guernseyguy]

Well, as they had to move somewhere, where do you suggest they'd have moved?

 

Hi Doug,

 

As Paul wonders, is this known as a fact? Princess did not say this when they announced the move. I'd be interested in any links you have which substantiate this & no doubt explain it better than it has been to date.

 

Peter

[travel-to-go]

So, are you going ;) ?

 

If he really spoke about it as enthusiastically as Karie suggests he did,

 

I won't say he spoke enthusiastically about going, just that he seemed sort of fed up with detractors. Maybe he's simply already made his peace with the reality.

One man's bucket of bolts, glad to be rid of it, is anothers "classic car" Maybe he was looking forward to a modern terminal with modern services. I don't know what each offers.

 

Now then, is it really necessary to put "Commodore" in quotes? Are you suggesting Karie was speaking to an impostor, or what ;) ?

 

The beard fooled me. That, and the place card, and everyone being obsequious around him <G> I wondered about the quotes, myself. I don't understand "commodore" as a rank, but looked up a bit of the history in the British Navy and such. It's kind of indistinct, as to its meaning, but I take it as an honorific, a step above "mere" Captain. <G> Or maybe it's like where I come from, the American south, where there was a tradition of calling everyone of a certain age, "Colonel" whether they served in the military or not.

 

Why shouldn't he be amenable to Cunard being owned by Micky Arison?

 

There is no doubt that Mr. Arison cares a heck of a lot more about Cunard than Trafalgar House or (even worse) Kvaerner ever did.

 

Besides which, if Micky Arison hadn't bought Cunard, the company would be out of business, QM2 wouldn't exist, QE2 might have long since disappeared on some forlorn beach in India,

 

I guess that is my own prejudice, I kind of look down my nose at Carnival, even though I know without it, cruising would exist only for a limited certain few of us, and certainly not me! I try not to be a snob. I certainly have no right to be one! but I like the idea of "playing princess" if you will. At least pretending I'm so "all that." I can't stand kids running around all over the place- I suffered through my years of "children should be seen and not heard" and "Children are not the center of the universe", behaving, when I wanted to whoop and holler. Now that I'm an adult (sort of- I'm only 51 <G> growing older, but not up, as they say!) I don't want someone using me for human monkey bars, and spilling my drink. I don't want to have to alter my behavior for the kids. (within reason, of course) and I don't want live drunken frat parties going on in front of me, throwing a football over my head while I'm reading, tripping over my drinks (hmm, I already said that, didn't I- must be something freudian there!) and cannonballing screaming into the pool or singing bawdy songs at top volume throughout the atrium piano bar all hours of the day and night. (Why, yes, I HAVE been on a Carnival cruise at which such bahavior was exhibited. Why do you ask? ) I expect a sense of DECORUM on a Cunard "lady" I have nothing against fun, and anyone can tell you I have a propensity at times for being loud, and like a good double entendre as well as the next. Heck. I like a good dirty joke, and I can even make sailors blush. I am far from conventional! Ask those who met me on this cruise! But there is a time and a place for everything.

 

A lot of very desirable neighborhoods in New York City were an awful lot worse 10 years ago than Red Hook is now.

 

Well, Bill Clinton now has an office in Harlem. That was once thought of as suicide to go into if you were a white person.

I suspect you are right, Doug. It is somewhere in the middle. On it's way up, but not there yet.

We'll just have to wait and see!

[Colin_Cameron]

"growing older, but not up, as they say!"

 

Now there's a motto to live by if ever I heard one.

 

Regards, Colin.

[eroller]

There is a view, but you won't see it sailing from Red Hook, as that's south of the southern tip of Manhattan! (And I still prefer the view on the Hudson, a decidedly more attractive body of water.)

 

 

I believe I sailed in and around this area (Red Hook) in 1990 when CROWN PRINCESS was being christened by Sophia Loren. None of us got off the ship, and the location was simply to have lower Manhattan as a backdrop for the christening. We certainly were not impressed with what we saw, which is one reason why no one got off the ship. It's "no-mans" land around there.

 

 

 

 

 

No, it's not, but it's on the upsurge. I wouldn't be at all surprised if in a few years it actually becomes the sort of place you might want to spend time in.

 

I doubt in a few years. Maybe 10-15, and even then I doubt most people will have any desire to spend time there. There are lots of nice neighborhoods in Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, etc. but that doesn't mean people want to spend time there. They are mostly residential and don't hold much appeal for the average NY visitor. I don't see that being any different with Red Hook, even if it does become gentrified over time.

 

 

 

The West Side piers are, frankly, in one of the dullest parts of Manhattan - now, Manhattan is pretty small, so they're rather close to some interesting places, but their immediate surroundings are nothing so wonderful. Most people simply leave the terminal, get in a cab, and go somewhere else! I suppose this is precisely the same thing they'll do at Red Hook.

 

 

Yes, and where exactly do you think most passengers visiting the NY area are going to spend time after a cruise? Manhattan of course. The difference is a short and inexpensive cab ride from the West Side piers to most tourist areas of Manhattan, compared to a lengthy and expensive cab ride from Red Hook .... provided you can even get a cab!

 

 

 

 

 

And Carnival, and HAL, and MSC.

 

I note you didn't mention Princess. My guess is when Princess decided to move their operations to NY, it made sense to move Cunard as well. Possibly it could be the other way around, but I think one was related to the other.

 

 

But the USCG would not extend the variance for QM2 to stick out into the river, and the City would not allow the West Side piers to be expanded so that she wouldn't. They had to go somewhere. If not Red Hook, then where... New Jersey? Boston? What would have been a better choice?

 

So if the pier is extended (which I understand was/is under consideration), then will Cunard return? My guess will be no unless Red Hook ends up being a complete disaster.

 

 

 

Now then, is it really necessary to put "Commodore" in quotes? Are you suggesting Karie was speaking to an impostor, or what ;) ?

 

Actually, I wasn't suggesting anything and didn't even think about it when I did it. It certainly wasn't a conscious decision or something deliberate. You on the other hand seem to have read much more into it, and felt it necessary to make a comment. I guess that is your problem. Now then, was it really necessary for you to bring it up?

 

 

 

Honestly, the West Side piers are a dump. They're a historic dump and a lot of us love them for that, but they're still a dump!

 

I don't consider them a dump at all. In fact my last two experiences at the West Side piers have been nothing but flawless. In and out on the QM2 went without a hitch, and disembarking on QE2 earlier this month could not have been easier. Frankly I had far worse experiences at so-called "modern" facilities in Ft. Lauderdale and Los Angeles.

 

 

Ernie

[eroller]

Ernie,

If you think your obsessed with Cunard, all l can say is welcome to the club!! we are quite a happy band of people, some like QM2 others love QE2 but we are Cunard through and through !!!:)

cheers

Myles

 

 

Thanks for the welcome Myles! I'm not new to cruising (60+ cruises over the last 27 years) but pretty new to Cunard. QE2 this January was my third time on Cunard (once before on QE2 and once on QM2) and it just keeps getting better.

 

I love both the QM2 and QE2 for different reasons. It would be hard to pick a favorite but QM2 might get the edge overall.

 

I have no doubt I will be sailing onboard both ships in the future.

 

I'm really anxious to sail on SAGA RUBY and SAGA ROSE (ex VISTAFJORD and SAGAFJORD) but I'm not old enough yet! :(

 

Ernie

[dougnewmanatsea]

Is it a fact? Or is it speculation?

Well, seeing as I'm not a mind-reader, I can't tell you what Princess/Carnival's "true feelings" were on the matter, but I do know that there was a plan to expand one of the West Side piers to accomodate QM2, and that they couldn't get permission to do it.

 

I also know that the USCG variance was temporary and that it will expire soon. They have to move her somewhere, and I guess Brooklyn looked like the best option.

 

Princess did not say this when they announced the move.

Well, obviously what ever they do they will want to put a positive spin on it, to make it seem "good for the customer". They're not going to say, "well, we're really disappointed we had to do this, but unfortunately we're going to have to inconvenience our passengers by moving to this less-desirable area..." That would hardly be a good way to sell cruises!

 

I'd be interested in any links you have which substantiate this

I'll try to dig something up later if I have the time. But there were certainly plans to extend one of the piers for QM2. Apparently the city rejected the plan because they were worried about "traffic"!

 

The Brooklyn terminal was also originally supposed to be in a much nicer area, more convenient to Manhattan attractions. Again, this was vetoed because of planning permission.

 

The whole story of QM2 and the Brooklyn terminal is so incredibly convoluted that I honestly don't remember all the minutae any longer.

 

At one time there was a plan to bring UNITED STATES to the West Side as a hotel. Again, vetoed because they could not get planning permission.

 

Planning permission in NYC is a big deal. This may seem ironic for a city that pride itself on building big and moving forward, but ever since the 1970s that has all changed and now one must jump through hoops to build anything!

 

I don't understand "commodore" as a rank, but looked up a bit of the history in the British Navy and such.

From a Merchant Navy standpoint, it means the most senior Captain in the company. This was not a uniquely British thing - for example, the last master of SS UNITED STATES was Commodore Alexanderson. He was "Commodore" because he was the most senior Captain of the United States Lines.

 

It's not used as much as it once was, though I believe Bernie Warner is next in line as Commodore. As I understand it, his command will be QM2, but he will be Commodore of the entire P&O Princess fleet. Similarly, when I was on GRAND PRINCESS in 2000, her master was Commodore Mike Moulin, but he was Commodore of all of P&O.

 

We'll just have to wait and see!

Indeed we shall! Who knows - Red Hook may turn out better than we think. Or maybe it will be such an absolute disaster that they'll be forced to move back to Manhattan. (I'm sure Micky has enough money to bribe some officials to get planning permission if he really wants to ;) .)

 

I believe I sailed in and around this area (Red Hook) in 1990 when CROWN PRINCESS was being christened by Sophia Loren.

Actually, I think you berthed in a completely different area of Brooklyn... Though I'm not absolutely sure.

 

I had thought you were in Brooklyn Heights which is where the original Brooklyn terminal was supposed to be (but they couldn't get planning permission - see above).

 

At any rate, while Red Hook is not a wonderful area, I imagine it has improved a lot since 1990... Frankly the whole City has come a very long way since those days.

 

I doubt in a few years.

Well, I guess it depends in the definition of a "few". Next year or the year after, probably not. Maybe 5 or 10. A lot of neighborhoods in Brooklyn have undergone a lot of changes in only 5-10 years.

 

They are mostly residential and don't hold much appeal for the average NY visitor.

This is true! But then, for that matter, a lot of Manhattan is residential too.

 

The area where the West Side piers are is not of particular interest to tourists either.

 

where exactly do you think most passengers visiting the NY area are going to spend time after a cruise? Manhattan of course.

This is certainly true. No matter how great some parts of it might be, Brooklyn really doesn't sell as a tourist attraction.

 

provided you can even get a cab!

It's not so easy at the West Side piers either!

 

I note you didn't mention Princess.

Well, no, since they're moving to Brooklyn, I wouldn't have ;) .

 

But right now it is just P&O Princess (mainly, this means Cunard and Princess) that will be moving.

 

Possibly it could be the other way around, but I think one was related to the other.

It was certainly the other way around. The Brooklyn terminal was a Carnival project that has been around since before the Carnival/Princess merger.

 

So if the pier is extended (which I understand was/is under consideration), then will Cunard return?

The pier will not be extended, so this is a moot point.

 

If the pier were being extended, then any move to Brooklyn would have been temporary, just to "get out of the way" while work was being done. The pier extension would have been specifically to accomodate QM2 - the only ship which would have neded a pier extension to begin with.

 

Now then, was it really necessary for you to bring it up?

I wasn't serious! Just a lame attempt to lighten the mood. I guess it didn't work ;) !

 

I don't consider them a dump at all.

They're pretty bad. I must admit that this time, disembarking from QE2, we were through there so quickly that I really didn't have time to notice how awful they are - but I've been kept waiting in them before and they are pretty awful. In summer, they're sweltering as the air-conditioning is next to useless and the windows don't open. The exteriors of the sheds are full of rust and peeling paint - when no ships are berthed, they look like they could be abandoned. The public toilets are often filthy and sometimes don't work. The elevators to the ground level (why is it impossible to use stairs?) are often broken. I could go on... But they need a lot of money put into them. And in fact, they should soon be getting just that - though, sadly, Cunard passengers won't be the beneficiaries.

 

Frankly I had far worse experiences at so-called "modern" facilities in Ft. Lauderdale and Los Angeles.

Well, the truth is that most cruise terminals are pretty awful! Just because the West Side piers are a dump, doesn't mean I think the rest of the world's cruise terminals are wonderful...

 

But for what it's worth, I think the Port Everglades facilities are apalling. Never used LA but by reputation, the World Cruise Center must be pretty bad too. The terminal I used in Rotterdam this summer was, like the West Side piers, historic and atmospheric but not very functional (though at least it was clean and well-kept - it was just way too small).

 

On the other hand, the Queen Elizabeth II Terminal in Southampton is very nice, and from what I've seen (though I didn't use it), so is the Mayflower Terminal (P&O). Canada Place in Vancouver is also excellent. I had an exemplary experience in a converted cargo shed in Istanbul. Perhaps the best of all are the new RCI terminals in Miami, built for the VOYAGER-class ships.

 

Most of the others I've used, frankly, are awful. The West Side piers are actually better than many of them - they're in disrepair, but at least they're big. A lot of other terminals were designed for far smaller ships than those of today, and they don't work. That's not the problem in New York - I think if suitably refurbished, the West Side piers could be (and may well be in the future) a world-class facility. But as they are now, they need a lot of help. They have had some in the past few years, but they still need much more.

[eroller]

I had thought you were in Brooklyn Heights which is where the original Brooklyn terminal was supposed to be (but they couldn't get planning permission - see above).

 

Could be. I honestly can't remember. I just recall no one was impressed and the crew couldn't wait to get the ship back to Manhattan.

 

 

At any rate, while Red Hook is not a wonderful area, I imagine it has improved a lot since 1990... Frankly the whole City has come a very long way since those days.

 

Agreed, even if some areas have become a bit sterile and "Disneyfied" in the process. Overall, it's vastly improved and so much safer.

 

 

 

The area where the West Side piers are is not of particular interest to tourists either.

 

True, but great areas of interest and some of NY's most famous landmarks are just minutes away. There is also much better access to subways, Penn Station, Port Authority, and Grand Central. I've even walked to Port Authority from the West Side piers on more than one occasion. I don't think I'll be walking anywhere in Red Hook.

 

 

The pier will not be extended, so this is a moot point.

 

I could not recall if there were still plans to extend the pier. There have been so many changes it's really hard to keep track. At some point I recall the Cunard move being "temporary", but I guess that is no longer the case.

 

 

 

I wasn't serious! Just a lame attempt to lighten the mood. I guess it didn't work ;) !

 

Apparently not. It sounded very acqusational for something I didn't even realize I did!

 

 

 

In summer, they're sweltering as the air-conditioning is next to useless and the windows don't open. The exteriors of the sheds are full of rust and peeling paint - when no ships are berthed, they look like they could be abandoned. The public toilets are often filthy and sometimes don't work. The elevators to the ground level (why is it impossible to use stairs?) are often broken.

 

I haven't used the piers during the Summer in years, so maybe I would feel differently if I did? I also have not used the toilets in the Pier, but those I have used in some other cities are pretty bad.

 

My recent experiences at the West Side piers have all been very positive. Easy to collect luggage, move through Customs, and outside to transportation options. My total time in the pier this January was no more than five minutes tops. For me, that is a sign that things are working smoothly. My longest time was actually at RCI's state of the art facility in Miami. We waited over an hour for our luggage to arrive on the airline style carousel. It was awful and many were worried they would miss their flights. No communication about the problem from RCI. Just goes to show that even the newest facilities can have their problems. I won't even mention the luggage transport system at Denver airport. Oops - I just did. Needless to say it has been decommissioned.

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, the Queen Elizabeth II Terminal in Southampton is very nice,

 

I think our experiences were different as you arrived later. Mine was pretty poor. Once you were inside the "holding area" everything was fine. Checking in was another story and it was chaotic, crowded, and VERY slow.

 

 

 

I think if suitably refurbished, the West Side piers could be (and may well be in the future) a world-class facility. But as they are now, they need a lot of help. They have had some in the past few years, but they still need much more.

 

 

Agreed. They location is excellent and the basic infrastructure is there. If they could just build upon that and improve it, I think they would have a winner.

 

Ernie

[Colin_Cameron]

LOL !!!!

Are you not heading of soon on QM2 ? cant remember which section your doing? hope this finds you well.

Myles

Hi Myles,

 

Yeah 35 days and counting. Off to Hawaii (Hopefully!)

Regards, Colin

[Colin_Cameron]

Don't leave out the Countess and the Crown Jewel!

 

ah, You never forget your first!

 

Karie

Hi Karie,

 

Never got to sail on either of these. When/where did you go?

 

Odd to think that in the not too distant past the were running ten ships!

 

Regards, Colin.

[travel-to-go]

Hi Karie,

 

Never got to sail on either of these. When/where did you go?

 

Odd to think that in the not too distant past the were running ten ships!

 

Regards, Colin.

 

I'm trying to dig out all of my old stuff.

I think on Crown Jewel, we did the standard Eastern Carib and Western Carib out of Port Everglades, 7 days. Dynasty was Southern Carib, included (I vaguely remember) Tortola, Antigua, Martinique, Barbados, - And I think that was when Monserrat was spouting off. I have pictures somewhere of that. We had a grand time! I don't remember how many days that was. Then we sailed through the canal on the Countess, disembarking on Acapulco, I think. I can't remember if there was another stop after that. I seem to remember spending a lot of time on shore excursion in Acapulco, seeing the beautiful homes and Las Brisas, the cliff divers, the new craft shopping area, the beach, a new country club and resort, and more. I'm thinking there must have been another stop. We did an awful lot there! (we also stopped in Costa Rica on the Pacific side, Puntarrenas. We did the "White Water" rafting trip. )

Those were back in the mid-90's. We had two ships sold out from under us, and the cruise line was sold twice, I think! (once to Trafalgar) I seem to remember Commodore handled staffing for them at the time. The Crown Cruises were a partnership with Commodore. They were running two Sea Goddesses, Vistafjord, Sagafjord, the newly refurbished QE2, (that was a real nightmare! Exploding toilets, non-working toilets, welders in the hallways, she grounded at one point, and I think ithey had to cancel two cruises due it being late out of refitting!) Oh yes, Royal viking Sun.

I just ran acorss a World Club mag from '96. Dynasty was dong the canal, and Countess was doing Southern Caribbean.

 

 

Karie

was it really only ten years ago?

[guernseyguy]

Those were back in the mid-90's. We had two ships sold out from under us, and the cruise line was sold twice.... the newly refurbished QE2, (that was a real nightmare! Exploding toilets, non-working toilets, welders in the hallways, she grounded at one point, and I think ithey had to cancel two cruises due it being late out of refitting!)

 

Back in the pre-Carnival 'Glory Days', when things were so much better! ;)

 

Peter

[Colin_Cameron]

Back in the pre-Carnival 'Glory Days', when things were so much better! ;)

 

Peter

We all have very selective memories, don't we.

 

Regards, Colin