Art Auction dilema!!

[Nliedel]

I agree with LHP. From now on tell them everything in writing and I would go so far as to send that certified mail and not pick up the phone when they call.

[sea_u_onboard]

Sea_u_onboard...I was confused by your posting... you said you paid $35 for a print they were later willing to sell for $75 (and which is listed on the internet at $99) but you claim "I left feeling I really got a bargin - but boy was I wrong" How were your wrong? Sounds like you got a great bargain. Unless I misread what you wrote....you DID only pay $35 for it, didn't you?

It was my wording that threw off what I meant. I should have said "I left feeling I really got a bargin - but boy was I wrong - you got the better bargain". I still feel like I got a bargain. It costs me about $115.00 to get it framed. I brought a cheaper print that I liked the frame and had a local shop cut me a new mat and frame it for me. Ended up being cheaper than a custom frame. It is proudly hung at my entrance way. I have 3 other pieces that I need to get into frames - 2 I won on our RCL cruise and 1 on our last Carnival cruise.

[sea_u_onboard]

Stephen...bet Sea was comparing "his" bargain to Arlanamay's...in that case his "bargain" was'n't so great .....when compared to hers..;)

"SHE" was. :D

[TrinaLC]

Well they haven't called me since Wed and that's fine by me. I hope they never will but I doubt it. It is definately an original the lady said so. It is done in acrylic. To the person worried about it being behind glass. Well it sits back from the glass recessed and doesn't touch it. I don't know enough about how art galleries do things to know if that's normal or not. To be honest it doesn't matter to me. I will definately keep you all posted. My husband didn't like when I told him to not answer the phone when they called or tell them I'm not here. I told him they can contact me via e-mail or letter. I just get too worked up and nervous when they call me. It puts me in a mood the rest of the day. I'm not a dramatic person really and my husband is surely not. He would have given it back just so there was no hassle. I just don't think I'm wrong and I don't want to be a door mat.

 

Arlanmay, you don't owe them anything! Don't feel guilty about not taking their phone calls. And don't even invite them to write instead of calling ...

 

Have DH tell them to stop harrasing you by phoning or you will turn them over to the AG.

[KelJ]

Whew! I just got through all nine pages of this! This is very exciting. Please keep us posted! I agree with the other posters who have said that it's yours and you should keep it. Definitely get your local attorney general involved.

[smeyer418]

I was on the Conquest 1-22-29 and attended all the art auctions. I bid on and won something for $150. It was a pretty water color and BIG. I had to take it off the ship with me. Well when I got it home I looked at it close up and it looked like an original painting. I tried to do some research on it but found nothing on that painting. Anyway I looked at my reciept to help me with my search and on it was a different title than what was on the painting itself. I thought well maybe it was in a series. Yesterday I received my letter of authenticity and I noticed the size they had stated was wrong and also that it was not signed in gold ink like the letter stated but in pencil. I called the Park West Gallery in Michigan and she sounded a little concerned and said she would call me back. Well she called me and wants to pick up the painting. I asked her how I could be sure I got my painting back and she said that I would get the other titled seriolithograph. I told her that the painting I have is the one that was put upon the eisle and up for bid. She said "Oh, I need to talk to my supervisiors and I will get back to you." I think I own it fair and square. What do you all think? Sorry this is so long.

 

 

Boy there are alot of opinions on this one. The legal concept is whether a mutual misstake has been made. If so there was no meeting of the minds and no contract has been made. That determination is very fact specific.

 

I go to sell you a cow for milking, by misstake you pick a bull from the coral? Do you own it. No there is a mutual misstake.

 

I sell you the Brooklyn Bridge(which I own) but sign the deed to you for the manhattan bridge. Do you own the Manhattan bridge? No again its not what was agreed to.

 

So if they offered to sell you x but put Y on the easel do you own Y? again it is fact specific given what their intent to sell to you was. Just because they made a misstake doesn't necessarily mean that you own what you have possession of. Again this is very fact specific, if you have afriend who is a lawyer talk to them.

 

Again I don't know without all the facts and some of the facts may be open to different views depending on what side you are on.

 

Personally I think the auctions are a rip off mostly.

[sea_u_onboard]

While I agree that there has to be a mutual understanding of what is being offered the auction house on the ship is catering to a large majority who have NO auction experience - and the auction house is very aware of this - spending a lot of time at the beginning of the auction to explain the procedures and such. I'm not sure that they do this at an auction off the ship. Again though - they are VERY aware that most of the audience are novice.

 

Since I have been to several on the ship I know the drill and it goes something like this. They put a piece on the eisle - the auctioneer talks about the artist and the piece. They state the reserve price. If someone doesn't bid the piece goes down. If someone agrees to the reserve then the piece is involved in active bidding. Once the hammer drops the sale is final - although I've heard some auctioners say that if the person bidding has buyers remorse they simply need to say something. They also have mystery pieces that they do not hold people to buying if they bid on it.

 

Since only one person on this thread was actually at this auction we have to assume that she heard the auctioneer announce the artist and give some information about the piece - even that is an assumption since I didn't listen to anything about the piece I bought (story earlier). I saw it, I liked it (as did my DH) and I bought it. If I had received anything other then the one I saw on the eisle I would have been calling asking for the right one - regardless of what the invoice said. That's the one I liked - that's the one I bought.

 

The bridge analogy is ok if they were actually standing in front of the Brooklyn bridge (or the buyer was looking at a picture of it) when the buyer agreed to buy. But it doesn't fit this situation. The seller put the item there for everyone to see and bid on - the buyer liked what they saw, bid on it, won the bid and got what they pay for. That is mutual to me - regardless if they had a mix up on their end.

 

This comment is no directed at no one - By saying that it was invoiced incorrectly that the buyer should be the one to lose out is wrong. THEY messed up if it was not their intent to sell the piece - regardless of what the piece is called. They presented it for sale.

 

If an auctioner held up a ceramic frog and said it was a toad and someone liked it and bid on it - do you think they care that the auctioneer called it a toad - they still have the frog that they liked and bought.

[virginiab]

Original artworks on paper are commonly framed: watercolors, original etching, original artist-pulled lithographs, etc. An acrylic on paper will usually be framed under glass. The mat provides a spacer between the artwork and the glass, and if the work has more dimension than your average watercolor (as in a collage for example) additional spacers may be inserted into the corners (and sometimes the edges) of the frame to keep the artwork a little away from the glass.

 

Okay, not particularly relevant here, but there is a new trend among watercolor painters to varnish their work rather than putting it under glass, but the common standard is still works-on-paper under glass.

 

I was looking at the picture that the OP put up of the painting and I would make an educated guess that it is painted on rough textured watercolor paper.

 

Virginia (who should be making more art instead of reading about art...)

www.virginiabrubaker.com has some of my artwork...

[ricko1]

I was on the Conquest 1-22-29 and attended all the art auctions. I bid on and won something for $150. It was a pretty water color and BIG. I had to take it off the ship with me. Well when I got it home I looked at it close up and it looked like an original painting. I tried to do some research on it but found nothing on that painting. Anyway I looked at my reciept to help me with my search and on it was a different title than what was on the painting itself. I thought well maybe it was in a series. Yesterday I received my letter of authenticity and I noticed the size they had stated was wrong and also that it was not signed in gold ink like the letter stated but in pencil. I called the Park West Gallery in Michigan and she sounded a little concerned and said she would call me back. Well she called me and wants to pick up the painting. I asked her how I could be sure I got my painting back and she said that I would get the other titled seriolithograph. I told her that the painting I have is the one that was put upon the eisle and up for bid. She said "Oh, I need to talk to my supervisiors and I will get back to you." I think I own it fair and square. What do you all think? Sorry this is so long.

 

Put your name on the federal do-not-call-list. The next time they call, instruct them they are breaking the Do Not Call Federal Law and will be reported the very next time they call..:p :p

[b8tzm]

Put your name on the federal do-not-call-list. The next time they call, instruct them they are breaking the Do Not Call Federal Law and will be reported the very next time they call..:p :p

 

I believe the Do Not Call List/Don't Call Me , isn't applicable if there is and or has been a business relationship. AT what point would it be harassment if they keep calling ?

[zqvol]

Boy there are alot of opinions on this one. The legal concept is whether a mutual misstake has been made. If so there was no meeting of the minds and no contract has been made. That determination is very fact specific.

 

I go to sell you a cow for milking, by misstake you pick a bull from the coral? Do you own it. No there is a mutual misstake.

 

I sell you the Brooklyn Bridge(which I own) but sign the deed to you for the manhattan bridge. Do you own the Manhattan bridge? No again its not what was agreed to.

 

So if they offered to sell you x but put Y on the easel do you own Y? again it is fact specific given what their intent to sell to you was. Just because they made a misstake doesn't necessarily mean that you own what you have possession of. Again this is very fact specific, if you have afriend who is a lawyer talk to them.

 

Again I don't know without all the facts and some of the facts may be open to different views depending on what side you are on.

 

Personally I think the auctions are a rip off mostly.

Sorry, but this is not an issue of mutual mistake. Seller put a specific item up, buyer bid on specific item. No mistake at all, this is a case of sellers remorse.

[Fury1995]

While I agree that there has to be a mutual understanding of what is being offered the auction house on the ship is catering to a large majority who have NO auction experience - and the auction house is very aware of this - spending a lot of time at the beginning of the auction to explain the procedures and such. I'm not sure that they do this at an auction off the ship. Again though - they are VERY aware that most of the audience are novice.

 

Since I have been to several on the ship I know the drill and it goes something like this. They put a piece on the eisle - the auctioneer talks about the artist and the piece. They state the reserve price. If someone doesn't bid the piece goes down. If someone agrees to the reserve then the piece is involved in active bidding. Once the hammer drops the sale is final - although I've heard some auctioners say that if the person bidding has buyers remorse they simply need to say something. They also have mystery pieces that they do not hold people to buying if they bid on it.

 

Since only one person on this thread was actually at this auction we have to assume that she heard the auctioneer announce the artist and give some information about the piece - even that is an assumption since I didn't listen to anything about the piece I bought (story earlier). I saw it, I liked it (as did my DH) and I bought it. If I had received anything other then the one I saw on the eisle I would have been calling asking for the right one - regardless of what the invoice said. That's the one I liked - that's the one I bought.

 

The bridge analogy is ok if they were actually standing in front of the Brooklyn bridge (or the buyer was looking at a picture of it) when the buyer agreed to buy. But it doesn't fit this situation. The seller put the item there for everyone to see and bid on - the buyer liked what they saw, bid on it, won the bid and got what they pay for. That is mutual to me - regardless if they had a mix up on their end.

 

This comment is no directed at no one - By saying that it was invoiced incorrectly that the buyer should be the one to lose out is wrong. THEY messed up if it was not their intent to sell the piece - regardless of what the piece is called. They presented it for sale.

 

If an auctioner held up a ceramic frog and said it was a toad and someone liked it and bid on it - do you think they care that the auctioneer called it a toad - they still have the frog that they liked and bought.

 

 

I completely agree.

 

As far as I know, there are only three basic parts to a legal binding transaction: offer, acceptance, and exchange of collateral. Park West offered the piece in question, the buyer (arlanamay) accepted the offer, when arlanamay paid for the piece and took posession of it, that was exchange of collateral. Transaction legally fulfilled. The only party who truly has rights to reverse this transaction would be the buyer, arlanamay, on grounds of fraud (if arlanamay seriously chose to persue this but I doubt it). Based on what we've read so far, arlanamay, never at any time misrepresented her intentions. Park West made it clear the sale was final.

 

I'm guessing since there has been no contact initiated by Park West since Wednesday :confused: , they may have assumed arlanamay will not be intimidated so easily and realised they have no legal grounds to force the reversal of this transaction or someone at Park West has read this thread (or maybe someone at Carnival gave them a call and told them to back off?).

 

arlanamay: Please try to keep us informed as best you can but remember, they may be reading what you say here (if it goes that far :rolleyes: ) however our thoughts and advice cannot be turned on you.:cool: Stand your ground. There are 3900 loyal cruising minds here on CC supporting you :D !

[zqvol]

Put your name on the federal do-not-call-list. The next time they call, instruct them they are breaking the Do Not Call Federal Law and will be reported the very next time they call..:p :p

Sorry but that is not how the do not call list works. It is only for solicitations.

[Fury1995]

I believe the Do Not Call List/Don't Call Me , isn't applicable if there is and or has been a business relationship. AT what point would it be harassment if they keep calling ?

 

If the consumer requests directly to the business they must comply immediately.

 

Also from the FCC website:

 

An established business relationship exists if you have made an inquiry, application, purchase, or transaction regarding products or services offered by the person or entity involved. Generally, you may put an end to that relationship by telling the person or entity not to place any more solicitation calls to your home. Additionally, the established business relationship is only in effect for 18 months after your last business transaction or 3 months after your last inquiry or application. After that, calls placed to you by that person or organization are considered telephone solicitations and will be subject to the do-not-call rules.

[mistybaby]

as far as the clause on the back of their contract (that PW is trying to rely on) it is my understanding that the wording of a contract (if ambigious, which definitely appears to be the case here) is interpretted AGAINST the party that drafted it - just some more food for thought and a further argument if PW contacts you again :)

[zqvol]

If the consumer requests directly to the business they must comply immediately.

 

Also from the FCC website:

 

An established business relationship exists if you have made an inquiry, application, purchase, or transaction regarding products or services offered by the person or entity involved. Generally, you may put an end to that relationship by telling the person or entity not to place any more solicitation calls to your home. Additionally, the established business relationship is only in effect for 18 months after your last business transaction or 3 months after your last inquiry or application. After that, calls placed to you by that person or organization are considered telephone solicitations and will be subject to the do-not-call rules.

Note the key word in the rule is solicitation. This is not a solication but an effort to resolve a dispute. You cannot prohibt calls of this nature.

[stlawrence]

I believe the point is what morally should be done. Whatever decision you make is between you and God. Just do what you feel morally is right, not what others feel you should do.

[Gypsywych]

No, but she can tell them when it is not convenient for them to call. She must, however, tell them in writing. Otherwise, it is legal for them to call between the hours of 8am and 9pm.

[<M&M>]

Ok while my situation has nothing to do with art it still has remarkable similarities.

When my wife and I were shopping for wedding rings we found a set at a nationwide jeweler that we liked that was 18k gold and platinum. we loved them and they were affordable ($700 set in 1993). we recieved a call 2 days after we took them home from the jeweler stating the price he sold the rings to us at was for the same style rings but with 14K gold and 14K white gold as the materials. He said sorry he made the mistake but if I could either give him $3900 to make up the difference or return the rings and get the cheaper ones instead... Needles to say I laughed at that idea. On top of that the rings needed to be engraved and since he offered free engraving we had it done there, almost a mistake when they came back they had swapped them for the 14k gold... i went back and had them give me the ones I picked out. Twelve years later and I still have my 18K and Plat, If he had a leg to stand on he would have tried harder to get his $3900, You took the item at face value with no deception on your part. Tell them to take a long walk off a short pier.;)

[Nliedel]

You reminded my husband (who reads these boards over my shoulder) that a few years ago he bought me a gorgeous Sapphire ring. It was in one case and he paid that price but the Manager came out and said it belonged in another case and was far more expensive, it had been mismarked. My husband quietly pointed out the laws in the state of Michigan that says if an item is marked at a specific price it may not be sold for more. He was polite but firm and got no more hassles. He then had it independantly appraised and the manager had not been lying.

[sea_u_onboard]

My husband quietly pointed out the laws in the state of Michigan that says if an item is marked at a specific price it may not be sold for more.

The States put these laws in place to stop bait and switch. It is there to protect the consumer. Your husband was in the right.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Not related to the post quoted: Just my Opinion

The OP did nothing wrong and shouldn't feel GUILTY that she wants to keep what she paid for. It's not her conscience I would be worried about - but PW. After all they are the one doing the bullying.

[arlanamay]

I completely agree.

 

As far as I know, there are only three basic parts to a legal binding transaction: offer, acceptance, and exchange of collateral. Park West offered the piece in question, the buyer (arlanamay) accepted the offer, when arlanamay paid for the piece and took posession of it, that was exchange of collateral. Transaction legally fulfilled. The only party who truly has rights to reverse this transaction would be the buyer, arlanamay, on grounds of fraud (if arlanamay seriously chose to persue this but I doubt it). Based on what we've read so far, arlanamay, never at any time misrepresented her intentions. Park West made it clear the sale was final.

 

I'm guessing since there has been no contact initiated by Park West since Wednesday :confused: , they may have assumed arlanamay will not be intimidated so easily and realised they have no legal grounds to force the reversal of this transaction or someone at Park West has read this thread (or maybe someone at Carnival gave them a call and told them to back off?).

 

arlanamay: Please try to keep us informed as best you can but remember, they may be reading what you say here (if it goes that far :rolleyes: ) however our thoughts and advice cannot be turned on you.:cool: Stand your ground. There are 3900 loyal cruising minds here on CC supporting you :D !

 

I never did hear back from Carnival. I guess if PW harrasses me again I will put a call out to them. I was hoping Christies would e-mail me back as well but no such luck.

[bubbie617]

I'm sitting here in awe of this situation. We have bought many pieces of art through PW and never had a problem they did not address promptly.

 

1. When an item is sold as a "T.O." (their term for a "take-off"), it is the last one of that print they have and they no longer need the framed one to display at auction. Usually the frame is dinged from putting it on and taking it off the easel so many times. You are told you are buying it "as is".

 

2. When a print is signed in what looks like pencil but is not numbered, it is usually "signed on the plate" which means the signature is part of the print. In other words, the signature was put on the paper the same way the print was put on the paper. More than likely, it is a lithograph that was not signed in pencil by the artist.

 

3. This is a unknown artist who is probably on PW's payroll as an "in-house" artist. They advertise the name of the artist and eventually get people to believe it is a well-known person because they've heard the name over and over. I know this for a fact because my husband used to be the business manager for a local art gallery that did many, many charity auctions. It's amazing how many people who consider themselves connoisseurs can be fooled by this.

 

4. Art (especially that found other than in a reputable land gallery) is only worth what you're willing to pay for it. Don't buy a piece because it might be a good investment unless it's an original etching from one of the old masters.

 

5. Having said that, my husband and I have bought a number of signed and number serigraphs of a well-known artist from PW on sea and on land (an artist not just known through PW Gallery) and on paper the prices for resale have increased greatly. Of course, we're not selling them, so it's a moot point.

 

6. For insurance purposes, if you still believe it to be valuable, have it appraised. You may find out it's only worth $75 or you may find out it's worth $5000. In either case, just hang it and enjoy it.

 

7. Have an attorney send PW a cease and desist letter and call it a day.

 

Good luck and enjoy your artwork.

[Hot Hockett]

any new information from PW or Carnival?

[Treven]

Thank you for that advice. I have a friend who is a patent lawyer so I might ask her what kind of lawyer I need if it comes to that. I wish I new an artist but I don't. I'm just afraid that if I give them the painting on good faith they will send me back something else and then I will be the one who has to go after them.

Don't even consider giving it back to them; if they want to look at it, they can send someone to your house!!