Reasons Why The Idiom, "Friends of Dorothy" Needs To Be Retired...

[CruiseMsclFurryDad]

On 8/27/2021 at 10:17 AM, DenGNNJ said:

Okay so let me start out this post by saying, "I'm bored".  Seriously... I work from home, it's been a slow week, and I'm sick of watching television.  It's 90+ degrees out, super humid, and we don't own a pool.  The beach is miserable in this weather, and I'm so prone to sweating that a single hot pepper is all it takes to put me into state of prolonged hyperhidrosis.  Trust me, if I had @#$% to do around the house, or something else planned, you wouldn't be reading this.

 

Anyway, as you may have guessed from the title, I'm not a fan of the FOD idiom and I think it should be changed to "LGBTQ+ and Friends" .  Here's the reasons:

 

1. It was kind of a good idea, but executed poorly.  Back in the day we were all worried about getting gay bashed, disowned, or fired from our jobs.  Out of necessity we created little code words, hung colored handkerchiefs out of our back pockets, and wore a single earring in our right ears (when straight guys were wearing them in their left), all so that we could identify members of our own community without having to ask and hopefully not get the @#$% kicked out of us.  FOD is an example of this but let's be real... a secret handshake isn't much of a secret if everyone knows how to do it.  Straight folks don't need the code breaking skills of Alan Turing to figure this one out - all one needs to do is ask guest services, "Who's Dorothy, and why she does get to have a party with all her friends in the 'so-and-so' lounge and I don't?"
    
2. It's based on a stereotype.  Dorothy = Wizard of Oz = Judy Garland, and ALL gay men worship Judy Garland.  This is completely and utterly untrue!  Look, get it right:  All gay men love musical theater & films and a only sub-set of us, albeit a large sub-set worship Judy Garland.  I'm in the Julie Andrews camp myself, so this whole "Goddess: Judy Garland" thing is kind of absurd and I definitely became LESS of a fan when I found out she had an affair with Orson Welles.  And what about our Lesbian sisters?  They're totally not represented at all with this outdated idiom because they're not into musical theater like us gay men.  They obviously prefer shopping at Home Depot for their endless home improvement projects while wearing sensible shoes.  The cruise lines don't call it "Friends of Dorothy & Pals with Toolbelts" now do they?  That would be ridiculous, right??
    
3. I think we've reach a point in our existence where it's safe to put the term "LGBTQ+ and Friends" on the cruise calendar.  If everyone knows or can figure out what FOD is anyway, let's call it what it needs to be called.  And for god's sake ... NO MORE LETTERS!  If you feel you need another letter for yourself we've already got you covered with the "+" thing.  "+" is good!  "+" = "the more the merrier".  "+" means the same as like, "Once I got through check-in, and got on the ship, they handed me a cocktail and I snagged another one off the tray when no one was looking!... that was a plus!!"  .  I'm old enough to remember when there were only 2 letters, L & G.  Then the "B's" got pissed and that got the "T's" and the "Q's" attention.  I did see "I" and "A" tagged on the back of that for a while, but not so much anymore.  Look... there are only so many letters in the alphabet, we all know them by heart, but probably only in one direction while humming a tune to ourselves.  And not for nothing, you don't need to have your own letter to hang with us.
    
4. If you're straight, and decided to show up to a LGBTQ+ gathering because you saw "and Friends" in the title, then you're probably cool and you can hang with us.

 

All kidding aside, don't get me wrong... I'm all for meeting other LGBTQ+ folks on a cruise and would NOT like to see these special gatherings go away because I think they definitely have their place.  There's a kind of security in knowing that there's at least SOMETHING we already have in common.

 

I'm tired of this now... post over.

Agree 100%

[Denarius]

On 4/1/2024 at 9:49 PM, CDNPolar said:

 

In Canada it is very common to see 2S and it is generally at the beginning:  2SLGBTQQIPA

 

This may not be a good comment to make, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I don't see why we group all these different identities together.  We don't even necessarily have anything in common other than we are not "straight".  Even the straight community has a lot of diverse and deviant groups, why don't they have their list of letters?

 

I just don't see why we have to label everyone.  Just be you and go about your life.

I agree absolutely. I hail from an era when the simple word gay signified a romantic attraction to one's own sex; the only thing which differeniated us from the (so called) straight community who were only attracted to the opposite one. Although we respected them, we considered (for example) ourselves to be separate from the trans community; there is no obvious connection between a man or woman who is attracted to their own sex and one who wishes to dress like or perhaps be a member of the opposite one. Now we are lumped together with them and other disparate groups who often have little in common other than they are not straight. Am I alone in thinking that the whole LGBTQWERTY+ thing has now got beyond parody and that we should simply go back to being gay?

Edited July 26 by Denarius

[fshepinc]

This is ultimately a no-win situation. First we were G. Then G&L. Then B joined in. Every time we add a letter we become more inclusive -but at the same time we lose a piece of our original identity. And the more we include newer/reclaimed labels like Queer/Questioning/Two-Spirit/Non-Binary/MSM/etc. the more we begin to alienate people of my generation and older, who still feel the hatred that was attached to words like "queer" and have no connection to the others. Part of the problem is that we are co-mingling sexual orientation and gender identity -two different things. 

 

All this begs the point: What is the purpose of this gathering? Back in the old days when nearly everyone was deeply closeted, the FOD meetup helped gay travelers find each other, creating social opportunities that might not be there otherwise. Today's gay travelers are usually out and open, and their fellow straight passengers are far more likely to be accepting, respectful, and friendly. No guarantees -but then you don't have that guarantee as a straight traveler, either...  The experience at the meet-up varies from cruise to cruise. I've met great people that I socialized with all week. I've also been the only one to show up. I'd like them to continue, but I'd also like to see them better organized -especially in terms of time and place. A crowded bar with limited seating just before dinner is a lousy way to get strangers to socialize.

[CDNPolar]

3 hours ago, fshepinc said:

 

 

All this begs the point: What is the purpose of this gathering? Back in the old days when nearly everyone was deeply closeted, the FOD meetup helped gay travelers find each other, creating social opportunities that might not be there otherwise. Today's gay travelers are usually out and open, and their fellow straight passengers are far more likely to be accepting, respectful, and friendly. No guarantees -but then you don't have that guarantee as a straight traveler, either...  The experience at the meet-up varies from cruise to cruise. I've met great people that I socialized with all week. I've also been the only one to show up. I'd like them to continue, but I'd also like to see them better organized -especially in terms of time and place. A crowded bar with limited seating just before dinner is a lousy way to get strangers to socialize.

 

My age tells much.  Bars were in back alleys.  We hid in the shadows.  I would have welcomed a FOD meetup then, but now, I agree with this sentiment.  We don't necessarily need it, unless we absolutely feel the need to be connected with other gays.

 

I may suggest on our next cruise that the cruise line - Viking - run a get together, and if I ask for it then I suppose that I should attend.  I would and will, but I still wonder why?  I have met many people naturally on a cruise without a labeled get together.  Do I need to specifically connect with other gay people? Yes?  No?  I really don't know.

 

My husband and I are very obviously a couple and we don't try to hide it.  We have matching wedding rings that are distinct that they are the same.  We act, talk, and interact as a couple.  We are not effeminate - IMO - but anyone watching us would suspect or determine that we are a couple.  We find that people are accepting and if they are not we have not witnessed it.

 

We are just out to meet nice people.

 

 

[Brgoescruising]

On 7/26/2024 at 4:46 AM, Denarius said:

I agree absolutely. I hail from an era when the simple word gay signified a romantic attraction to one's own sex; the only thing which differeniated us from the (so called) straight community who were only attracted to the opposite one. Although we respected them, we considered (for example) ourselves to be separate from the trans community; there is no obvious connection between a man or woman who is attracted to their own sex and one who wishes to dress like or perhaps be a member of the opposite one. Now we are lumped together with them and other disparate groups who often have little in common other than they are not straight. Am I alone in thinking that the whole LGBTQWERTY+ thing has now got beyond parody and that we should simply go back to being gay?

This just makes me sad and displays a lack of knowledge of queer history, y'all from the older generation ought to be with us all on the front lines still, you know the societal attitudes we don't want to go back to, you should have the activism experience to teach and mentor us younger folks. 

 

I'm not gonna shy away from saying queer, I mean come on....the liberation movement going back years and years and years has always focused on including everyone...and now you want to cast out the likes of all the people on the forefront of activism going back to 30s in the name of "i want to be gay cause it's "acceptable" and tell the queer people who make cishet's uncomfortable to go back in the closet still?"  This just reeks of mattachine society/DOB attitude(circa late 60s/early 70s) that caused them to die off because they weren't fighting for everyone, only to preserve their own privileged positions.  Intersectionality is the answer, always has been, always will be.

[fshepinc]

I think you're misreading that a little. As an older gay man (sixties) I feel like I am automatically dismissed by younger members of the community -far from being a mentor or teacher. When I explain that I don't use the term queer because it carries too many painful, personal memories for me I get rolling eyes and a look of disdain. I have been, and continue to be, more of an activist than most (not all) of the younger people I see. Intersectionality is great, but it can be taken too far -especially if it goes to the extreme of marginalizing or even erasing groups of people in the name of forging a larger group. One example that comes to mind is the ongoing battle over bisexuality vs straight-men-who-have-sex-with-men. Some of us try to force others to identify the way we wish to identify them, regardless of how they see themselves or the realities of their worlds. To me, we should welcome and embrace everyone -whoever and however they are. And we should stand up for, and fight for everyone's rights. I don't think anyone who has posted here is suggesting that people go back in the closet. I think what you're seeing is a natural push-back from people whose lived experience is being challenged. If you have fought for decades to be who you are, you don't relish people coming along and telling you you have to change...

 

Bringing this back to cruising - Frankly, I don't care what the cruise line calls the meetup. I will still try to attend. On most of my recent cruises the acronym LGBT has been used. The point is to identify the larger group, not to exclude anyone whose initial has been left out. Mostly I see people of my generation or older at these meetups. I know there are younger passengers aboard, but meetups aren't really their "thing.'' Their loss, as well as ours, because in our daily lives at home we don't often have the opportunity to meet people who aren't like us. I'd love to have a conversation about what it's been like to be gay that bridges several generations, ethnic and religious backgrounds, regional diversity, etc. We have things in common, but different points of view. And a drink with a friendly chat is not a relinquishing of one's vacation, nor a commitment to continuing to meet. 

[atexsix]

2 hours ago, fshepinc said:

I think you're misreading that a little. As an older gay man (sixties) I feel like I am automatically dismissed by younger members of the community -far from being a mentor or teacher. When I explain that I don't use the term queer because it carries too many painful, personal memories for me I get rolling eyes and a look of disdain. I have been, and continue to be, more of an activist than most (not all) of the younger people I see. Intersectionality is great, but it can be taken too far -especially if it goes to the extreme of marginalizing or even erasing groups of people in the name of forging a larger group. One example that comes to mind is the ongoing battle over bisexuality vs straight-men-who-have-sex-with-men. Some of us try to force others to identify the way we wish to identify them, regardless of how they see themselves or the realities of their worlds. To me, we should welcome and embrace everyone -whoever and however they are. And we should stand up for, and fight for everyone's rights. I don't think anyone who has posted here is suggesting that people go back in the closet. I think what you're seeing is a natural push-back from people whose lived experience is being challenged. If you have fought for decades to be who you are, you don't relish people coming along and telling you you have to change...

 

Bringing this back to cruising - Frankly, I don't care what the cruise line calls the meetup. I will still try to attend. On most of my recent cruises the acronym LGBT has been used. The point is to identify the larger group, not to exclude anyone whose initial has been left out. Mostly I see people of my generation or older at these meetups. I know there are younger passengers aboard, but meetups aren't really their "thing.'' Their loss, as well as ours, because in our daily lives at home we don't often have the opportunity to meet people who aren't like us. I'd love to have a conversation about what it's been like to be gay that bridges several generations, ethnic and religious backgrounds, regional diversity, etc. We have things in common, but different points of view. And a drink with a friendly chat is not a relinquishing of one's vacation, nor a commitment to continuing to meet. 

Hard to believe this thread is STILL going, especially since the room itself is pretty much dead. 

 

I've found FOD meetings to be hit or miss and sometimes it depends whether I'm cruising with others or solo.  My very first FOD about 20 years ago got assigned the same bar as the Friends of Bill W and I had quite a fun time with a lesbian couple that was there for that.  Either the cruise line had a sense of humor or it was an honest mistake, either way it worked out in the end.  Another time I attended the FOD well into the cruise, it was a long itinerary, and the two guys that were there had said they'd attended every night and had obviously bonded, so I felt like I had crashed a party, although they did invite me to dinner that evening, but it was clear they would have preferred to be alone. Other times I completely ignored the FOD.  Another time I got repeated offers to join somebody in their cabin every time they bumped into me, despite my telling the guy I was not looking for any kind of hookup.  

 

My advice is this: find out where the meeting is and then observe from a distance, figure out if it looks like people you'd be comfortable around.  I know that sounds lame, but I don't have anything else to offer.  

[atexsix]

19 hours ago, fshepinc said:

I think you're misreading that a little. As an older gay man (sixties) I feel like I am automatically dismissed by younger members of the community -far from being a mentor or teacher. When I explain that I don't use the term queer because it carries too many painful, personal memories for me I get rolling eyes and a look of disdain. I have been, and continue to be, more of an activist than most (not all) of the younger people I see. Intersectionality is great, but it can be taken too far -especially if it goes to the extreme of marginalizing or even erasing groups of people in the name of forging a larger group. One example that comes to mind is the ongoing battle over bisexuality vs straight-men-who-have-sex-with-men. Some of us try to force others to identify the way we wish to identify them, regardless of how they see themselves or the realities of their worlds. To me, we should welcome and embrace everyone -whoever and however they are. And we should stand up for, and fight for everyone's rights. I don't think anyone who has posted here is suggesting that people go back in the closet. I think what you're seeing is a natural push-back from people whose lived experience is being challenged. If you have fought for decades to be who you are, you don't relish people coming along and telling you you have to change...

 

Bringing this back to cruising - Frankly, I don't care what the cruise line calls the meetup. I will still try to attend. On most of my recent cruises the acronym LGBT has been used. The point is to identify the larger group, not to exclude anyone whose initial has been left out. Mostly I see people of my generation or older at these meetups. I know there are younger passengers aboard, but meetups aren't really their "thing.'' Their loss, as well as ours, because in our daily lives at home we don't often have the opportunity to meet people who aren't like us. I'd love to have a conversation about what it's been like to be gay that bridges several generations, ethnic and religious backgrounds, regional diversity, etc. We have things in common, but different points of view. And a drink with a friendly chat is not a relinquishing of one's vacation, nor a commitment to continuing to meet. 

I wanted to reply to some of your points:

 

-I felt like I was automatically dismissed even in my 40's.  

-There was a time in my life I didn't even like the word "gay".  I've gotten better about it.  Queer though is not a word I would ever describe myself as nor would I use a friend of dorothy, I just use FOD in this forum because it's easier to type out rather than the latest alphabet soup that society is pushing on everybody; even my Mom laughed when I told her about it, it seems like every year or so another letter gets added to it.  I always butcher it or accidentally switch letters around when I do attempt to use it.  It really was easier when it was just plain ol "gay". 

-The internet generation has trouble with one on one communication, I see this all the time on the job.  It's a problem.

-My favorite part of a M&G is for at least that small segment of time I don't have to pretend or introduce whomever I'm with as "a friend".  Not that I've ever encountered any overt prejudice, I'm just a private person.  

 

[atexsix]

The Celebrity thread got me thinking.  Perhaps if the cruise lines held M&G's somewhere other than bars/lounges they'd be better attended.  Almost as if cruise lines are implying gay people do nothing but drink all the time.  Not everybody likes the bar atmosphere.  

 

Some ideas off the top of my head:

-FOD lunch (section of the MDR, a lot of cruise lines don't open every floor during lunch service)

-FOD Bridge (the card game)

-FOD at the aft pool for a couple of hours

 

As I've stated many times before, I meet more gay men in the gym/spa than I ever have at a FOD meeting.  

[CDNPolar]

Don't disagree with you on this, and it would be great to have gatherings other than a bar, but on many of the cruise lines when they have any kind of meet and greet, it is typically in a lounge or at least has drinks available.  I think that most consider "socializing" to be around alcohol?

 

Although I think that gay men can be often met in the gym / spa and I am not suggesting anything here, but this is an area that as a married man with my husband on the cruise, that I would avoid completely as I don't want to give the impression that I am "looking" because I am not.  

I don't mind meeting single gay men on a cruise or couples, but I would want it to be in a non-cruising mode - pun intended.

[Jay Es]

If the cruise line is arranging it, it will be at a location where they want you to spend money. They don't have all those bars on the ship for nothing.

 

I don't like hanging out in bars. I wish there were other options, but I accept the reality, go to the meetup, and try to make the best of it.

[CDNPolar]

19 hours ago, Jay Es said:

If the cruise line is arranging it, it will be at a location where they want you to spend money. They don't have all those bars on the ship for nothing.

 

I don't like hanging out in bars. I wish there were other options, but I accept the reality, go to the meetup, and try to make the best of it.

 

I hear you on what you are saying and for others that feel the same way, you don't have to drink to attend one of these gatherings.

 

Of course the cruise line wants the alcohol sales from these.

[atexsix]

On 8/31/2024 at 4:40 AM, CDNPolar said:

Don't disagree with you on this, and it would be great to have gatherings other than a bar, but on many of the cruise lines when they have any kind of meet and greet, it is typically in a lounge or at least has drinks available.  I think that most consider "socializing" to be around alcohol?

 

Although I think that gay men can be often met in the gym / spa and I am not suggesting anything here, but this is an area that as a married man with my husband on the cruise, that I would avoid completely as I don't want to give the impression that I am "looking" because I am not.  

I don't mind meeting single gay men on a cruise or couples, but I would want it to be in a non-cruising mode - pun intended.

 

On 9/1/2024 at 2:55 AM, CDNPolar said:

 

I hear you on what you are saying and for others that feel the same way, you don't have to drink to attend one of these gatherings.

 

Of course the cruise line wants the alcohol sales from these.

Valid points.  As those type of places do attract people that are looking for more than just dinner conversation.  It was just an idea.  You're right, most want some type of beverage in order to socialize to if nothing else, break the ice.  However, they could do some type of activity: bridge, scrabble, gay trivia, etc.

[atexsix]

Something else I noticed the last couple of cruises with HAL and Princess is that the cruise lines are moving away from FOD on their own and adopting LGBTQIA+ or even being really bold and spelling out "gay and lesbian" on the western US/Canada cruises.   

 

It wouldn't be the first time an outdated word disappeared without any prompting, like I never hear "lover" anymore, which was widely used throughout the 70s and 80s.  Now it's wife or husband when married or life partner/longtime companion when not which replaced the 90s "significant other".  

 

Have anybody else noticed this or is FOD still a thing elsewhere?

[CDNPolar]

13 hours ago, atexsix said:

Something else I noticed the last couple of cruises with HAL and Princess is that the cruise lines are moving away from FOD on their own and adopting LGBTQIA+ or even being really bold and spelling out "gay and lesbian" on the western US/Canada cruises.   

 

It wouldn't be the first time an outdated word disappeared without any prompting, like I never hear "lover" anymore, which was widely used throughout the 70s and 80s.  Now it's wife or husband when married or life partner/longtime companion when not which replaced the 90s "significant other".  

 

Have anybody else noticed this or is FOD still a thing elsewhere?

 

I believe that FOD will phase out as cruise lines become more aware also of gender fluidity and how people identify.

 

I have written a couple of times to my favourite cruise line suggesting that during a port talk I heard the term "Ladies and Gentlemen" at least 50 times.  Some of the crew start every new statement with "Ladies and Gentlemen" and it becomes so redundantly obvious to me that it becomes hard to hear again and again.  

 

I am in L&D and non-inclusive greetings and phrases like "Ladies and Gentlemen" I retired several years ago.

 

We are however also dealing with Crew from cultures where this kind of greeting is ingrained and diversity is not top of mind.

[cruiseny4life]

The cruise lines offer a space to gather. Personally, I'd think most of our community (not my husband and I, though) would prefer bars. I can't imagine having a hosted by the cruise line event anywhere else. I exclusively (currently) sail NCL where the Free at Sea package means the cruise line is not making much of anything on drinks, since most everyone has the package. I think it's just a convenient place for us to gather. I do remember on Pr1ma, way back in November, the gathering was held in The Improv Comedy Club. We didn't attend, but did walk by and noticed everyone had a drink in hand.

 

Anyway, that's not really why I'm posting. What I'm thinking is if y'all really don't want to gather in a bar, then go to the first evening's event and invite a bunch of folx to your happening gathering spot the next day at whatever hour. I would definitely go to a gathering of our folx if it was held on the sports court or the Waterfront (NCL's kinda promenade) where we'd watch the ocean and just talk, assuredly with drink in hand. 

 

Make the event what you want. You don't have to follow the cruise line's lead. 

[atexsix]

On 9/4/2024 at 5:12 AM, cruiseny4life said:

The cruise lines offer a space to gather. Personally, I'd think most of our community (not my husband and I, though) would prefer bars. I can't imagine having a hosted by the cruise line event anywhere else. I exclusively (currently) sail NCL where the Free at Sea package means the cruise line is not making much of anything on drinks, since most everyone has the package. I think it's just a convenient place for us to gather. I do remember on Pr1ma, way back in November, the gathering was held in The Improv Comedy Club. We didn't attend, but did walk by and noticed everyone had a drink in hand.

 

Anyway, that's not really why I'm posting. What I'm thinking is if y'all really don't want to gather in a bar, then go to the first evening's event and invite a bunch of folx to your happening gathering spot the next day at whatever hour. I would definitely go to a gathering of our folx if it was held on the sports court or the Waterfront (NCL's kinda promenade) where we'd watch the ocean and just talk, assuredly with drink in hand. 

 

Make the event what you want. You don't have to follow the cruise line's lead. 

Which is what we did with the last FOD we attended, it started out in a lounge during happy hour and since there were only 4 of us we decided to have dinner together. 

 

On 9/4/2024 at 3:33 AM, CDNPolar said:

 

I believe that FOD will phase out as cruise lines become more aware also of gender fluidity and how people identify.

 

I have written a couple of times to my favourite cruise line suggesting that during a port talk I heard the term "Ladies and Gentlemen" at least 50 times.  Some of the crew start every new statement with "Ladies and Gentlemen" and it becomes so redundantly obvious to me that it becomes hard to hear again and again.  

 

I am in L&D and non-inclusive greetings and phrases like "Ladies and Gentlemen" I retired several years ago.

 

We are however also dealing with Crew from cultures where this kind of greeting is ingrained and diversity is not top of mind.

I've been hearing "folks" a lot more, I don't mind it, sounds old-fashioned in a small town country kinda way.

[CDNPolar]

12 hours ago, atexsix said:

Which is what we did with the last FOD we attended, it started out in a lounge during happy hour and since there were only 4 of us we decided to have dinner together. 

 

I've been hearing "folks" a lot more, I don't mind it, sounds old-fashioned in a small town country kinda way.

 

It does sound a bit small town'ish, but...

 

I work in learning and development and I work with 8 countries and many different cultures in these countries.  Many countries are far advanced to Canada and the USA in acceptance and tolerance, and some are behind.

 

I just know for me, that I have completely abandoned "ladies and gentlemen" and replaced that with "Everybody" or Everyone" and perhaps occasionally "Folks".

 

Perhaps I am too close to diversity and inclusion initiatives, but I just find I cringe every time someone says "ladies and gentlemen" thinking, what if someone in the room does not identify this way.

 

All so complicated...

[atexsix]

1 hour ago, CDNPolar said:

 

It does sound a bit small town'ish, but...

 

I work in learning and development and I work with 8 countries and many different cultures in these countries.  Many countries are far advanced to Canada and the USA in acceptance and tolerance, and some are behind.

 

I just know for me, that I have completely abandoned "ladies and gentlemen" and replaced that with "Everybody" or Everyone" and perhaps occasionally "Folks".

 

Perhaps I am too close to diversity and inclusion initiatives, but I just find I cringe every time someone says "ladies and gentlemen" thinking, what if someone in the room does not identify this way.

 

All so complicated...

I was thinking about that.  In particular the pronoun issue currently going on in the U.S.  A lot of foreign languages don't even use he/she pronouns, and speakers unfamiliar with English will often confuse the two.  So let's say someone is learning the language and finally understands how to use pronouns but wait, "now you're saying not to use them?" is what I imagine them thinking.

 

"people" is another that can be used in place of "ladies and gentlemen".  If "first lady" and "second gentleman" is used to describe our very leaders, then how do you convey it's fallen out of modern use?

[fshepinc]

Language and usage do change over time, but it usually takes many, many years. When I was a kid I still heard terms like "lady doctor," "lady pilot," etc. Nowadays most speakers don't perceive a need to attach a gender to the job (although "male nurse" still rears its ugly head). "Stewardess" and "policeman" have become "flight attendant" and "police officer."  

 

"Ladies and gentlemen" is still in majority use, and it's not going anywhere soon, as it has traditionally been seen as a respectful form of address. "Folks" and "Everyone" are still very informal-sounding. Would "ladies, gentlemen, and those who identify differently" work for people?  Or go super-old-school with "Greetings, Everyone!" Nothing is more engrained than our native language, and it can be hard to change how we speak. It doesn't mean we don't care or aren't trying -just that it ain't easy.

[Brgoescruising]

Seems like a perfect opportunity to say...."welcome cruisers"....oh wait.

 

In all seriousness, it's sad to see y'all arguing about how to address us thems without just you know.....asking us or another trans person you may know.....

[fshepinc]

Part of the problem, Brgoescruising, is that none of my trans friends and acquaintances can agree on how they should be addressed. I do my best to use the names, pronouns and terms that each person prefers, but when everyone is together in a group there isn't a consensus. Individuals are easier than groups. I was just on a Virgin cruise, and they refer to all their passengers as "sailors." So "welcome, sailors" was used at the start of shows and activities. Worked for me. 

 

BTW, I found Virgin to be absolutely welcoming to everyone. It's company policy to encourage everyone to "be yourself however you are or want to be." And that includes the crew. On my particular voyage I saw more LGBTQ+ cruisers than anywhere outside an all-gay charter. And not a single fellow passenger raised an eyebrow. Quite the opposite, actually. Diversity was embraced, not "accepted."

[CDNPolar]

8 minutes ago, Brgoescruising said:

Seems like a perfect opportunity to say...."welcome cruisers"....oh wait.

 

In all seriousness, it's sad to see y'all arguing about how to address us thems without just you know.....asking us or another trans person you may know.....

 

How would you like to be addressed?

 

How specifically would you like me to address YOU in the crowd when I am addressing hundreds of people with one catch all phrase?  What would that phrase be?

 

We are talking about addressing the masses... hundreds of people in a room.  We are not looking for how to address someone that is gender neutral or non-binary or trans on an individual basis.
 

I think you are mis-understanding the context.  When a Cruise Director steps on the stage of the theatre and addresses everyone as "Ladies and Gentlemen" they are missing their opportunity to step into the current times and address everyone in the room in an inclusive way.

I was simply suggesting that Ladies and Gentlemen is a non-inclusive term to use today.

[Brgoescruising]

Sailors, cruisers, vacationers, whatever, the options are pretty endless to be honest? The point is, it's just tiring to hear people still trying to figure out what to with "us" when we're all part of the same umbrella.

[fshepinc]

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative here, but I'm not sure that's a fair statement, Brgoescruising. The others under the umbrella are not seeking a language change, or feeling the need to be addressed separately. I don't think anyone would want, "Good evening, ladies and gentlemen -and gays and lesbians" as if we weren't people capable of behaving in a socially-acceptable manner. I totally get the desire to be included and to feel acknowledged, but it's a slow-moving process. 

 

Tongue-not-quite-fully-in-cheek, maybe we need a national/international conference of trans people to work out official terms and phrases that everyone is satisfied with? As I said before, it's easy to address and support individuals, but groups aren't nearly so straightforward because what pleases one offends another. Give me the words and I'm happy to use them, but if you leave it up to me I may default to what is comfortable for me and not you.