Site to Find Past Cruiseships

[iloveokw]

Does anyone know of a site where you can find out what happened to old cruiseships. I am looking for info on the Bahamian Star (70's - my first cruise) and Flavia (honeymoon 1980). Thanks

[N7786W Flyer]

To be short, the Flavia sailed for Costa until 1982. From there, she was sold to a Chinese buyer who never (to my knowledge) put her back into service. She burned and sank in Hong Kong in 1989 while supposedly undergoing refurbishment to re-entry into cruise service. She was later scrapped in Taiwan.

 

The Bahama Star (I'm assuming you're meaning the one from the early 1970's, as there were two ships with that name), sailed under that name until 1974 when she sustained some boiler damage and was pulled from service. She was sold for scrap in 1979 and sank in the Pacific while being towed to the scrapyard.

[N7786W Flyer]

BTW, while I never sailed on the Flavia, my Senior Class (high school) did take a trip on the Bahama Star in 1973.

 

I remember the trip for several reasons, but particularly because it was my first cruise and the fact that my stateroom key was seemingly able to unlock every stateroom on the ship...apparently, I had been given a master key by mistake!

[iloveokw]

Thanks for the info. My parents now in their 80's took us on the Bahama Star - I only remember the pictures :) And being sea sick. That is the only cruise they ever have been on.

[dougnewmanatsea]

apparently, I had been given a master key by mistake!

Or... All the locks on the ship were the same!

 

(This is not as rare as it sounds. I am told that all the original cabin locks on QE2 were identical! They've sinced added new ones, which I suppose are not all the same, though I never thought to try to open a friend's cabin with my key to test it out...)

[Mark]

Isn't it amazing how many cruise ships have sunk for various reason out in the pacific or far east when they were slated for a refurbishment or scrapping? It can't be a coincidence! If I am not mistaken, I think the Queen Elizabeth sank in Hong Kong harbor didn't it?

 

My guess is that owners know that once they leave the American, Canadian and European areas of the world, there is little interest and capability to investigate these "accidents" or have the capability to stop or prevent them...very interesting...:confused:

[Druke I]

Mark

 

Or is it perhaps that they are insured for more than the scrap value?

 

I also wondered about some of the convenient sinkings while en route to the scrappers.

[surfklutz]

Thanks for the info. My parents now in their 80's took us on the Bahama Star - I only remember the pictures :) And being sea sick. That is the only cruise they ever have been on.

 

Ah....the Bahama Star - that was a nice ship at that time....especially since the company was running the Veracruz before they got the Star!

[N7786W Flyer]

I think you're confusing the Bermuda Star with the Bahama Star. The Bahama Star however was a sister ship to the Veracruz in a former life. If I remember correctly, the Bahama Star was built as the Jerusalem for Zim Lines. The Veracruz was also originally owned by Zim Lines and sailed as the Theodor Herzl. Matter of fact, I believe the Theodor Herzl (Veracruz) and Jerusalem (Bahama Star) were actually built as twins.

 

Garnett

[N7786W Flyer]

To clarify my last posting, it was the Bermuda Star that sailed with the Veracruz, not the Bahama Star. However, both the Bahama Star and Veracruz were originally owned by Zim Lines when they were newbuilds. Hope this all makes sense!

[nauditor]

When I did a stint as crew purser on the New Bahama Star in 1974 I discovered that all the crew cabin keys on my key-board opened all the crew cabins! It didn't occur to me that all the locks were the same; I assumed instead that previous crew pursers had decided to ease their burden by copying a master key over and over to fill up the board.

 

There were other unexpected revelations. I would send people to what should be a 4-berth cabin on my deck plan, and they'd come back and say "There's only two beds," or "That's a single-berth cabin." I would go take a look, and found it was common for a crew member, finding himself to be the last man in a cabin for a day or so, to take the opportunity to ensure he would remain alone by dismantling the other bunks and throwing the pieces out the porthole. One could not be sure if the culprit was the last occupant, or the beds had disappeared earlier.

 

(It's obvious that if there were inspections at all down there, they were of an extremely cursory nature! Certainly, neither the Captain nor Food Manager carried a deck plan, if they inspected at all.)

 

Another surprise was that the bunking 'arrangement' of the two worst cabins was a matter of first-come-first-served. There were two cabins right over the prop shaft deep aft. One had 9 berths, the other 10. The Staff Captain had a habit of hiring garbagemen and scullions right off the dock in Nassau. These guys would be a constant surprise to the Food Manager, and to me. I suspected that for 19 berths there were at any time probably as many as 25 people. I could only assign berths to people actually on the crew list, but it was hopeless, for the occupants of these cabins had to re-assign berths to themselves every day. After work, they went below and took whatever bunk was available! (If they ever showed up for work at all, for the Staff Captain sure didn't check up on them.)

 

I'm surprised that similar chaos reigned on the QE2. (Though I'm sure it didn't extend to dismantling beds, and hiring people without signing them on). But it raises an interesting question of management style. If responsibility for berthing the entire below-decks crew is left in the hands of the crew purser alone, this sort of thing can happen more easily than if blocks of cabins are assigned to department heads, who are in turn closely monitored by security, which comes under the Deck Department.

 

Well, this latter is a matter of opinion. But I personally found that the 'block system' worked best, on Commodore for example.

 

 

 

Or... All the locks on the ship were the same!

 

(This is not as rare as it sounds. I am told that all the original cabin locks on QE2 were identical! They've sinced added new ones, which I suppose are not all the same, though I never thought to try to open a friend's cabin with my key to test it out...)

[chasetf]

Does anyone know of a site where you can find out what happened to old cruiseships. I am looking for info on the Bahamian Star (70's - my first cruise) and Flavia (honeymoon 1980). Thanks

I use this site a lot http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/ to find pictures of old ships. Found on the site what I believe is the Flavia you mentioned.

[dougnewmanatsea]

Or is it perhaps that they are insured for more than the scrap value?

I think you're right on the money here.

 

Note that, suddenly, in the past few years all the ships sold for scrap seem to actually be getting to the breakers... Whereas, say, five years ago ships were sinking right and left on their way to the breakers' yard.

 

Well, you ask, what happened? Scrap prices went up!

 

Interesting coincidence, no ;) ?

 

Now, admittedly, an empty vessel under tow is certainly much more vulnearable than a vessel in service... But for a few years, it seemed that virtually every passenger ship sold for srap would sink in the way to the breakers. And yet recently, this has become something that virtually never occurs. I just can't help but think that it isn't connected to scrap values at least a little bit ;) !

 

I think you're confusing the Bermuda Star with the Bahama Star. The Bahama Star however was a sister ship to the Veracruz in a former life.

True... But it is important to note here that we are dealing with NEW BAHAMA STAR rather than the original BAHAMA STAR.

 

BAHAMA STAR had been built in 1931 as BORINQUEN for New York and Porto Rico Steamship Company, who ran her (unsurprisingly) on cruises from New York to San Juan. After trooping during WWII, she returned to her original owners who continued to operate her until 1949 when she was sold to a firm called the Bull Line who also ran her on cruises between New York and the Caribbean. In 1953 she was sold to Arosa Line, a low-cost Transatlantic operator, and became AROSA STAR. They went under in 1958 and she was auctioned off to Eastern Steanship who renamed her BAHAMA STAR and used her on their short cruises from Miami until 1968. At that point she ceased to comply with US safety regulations, so she was sold and renamed LA JANELLE. Her owners reportedly intended to turn her into a hotel ship somewhere on the West Coast of the US. Instead, in 1970 she broke her moorings and ran aground at Port Hueneme, California during a hurricane and was broken up.

 

NEW BAHAMA STAR was her replacement, built in 1957 as JERUSALEM for Zim Line. She was one of several ships built in Germany after the Second World War as reparations to Israel. She was withdrawn in 1975 and sank on her way to the breakers in 1979.

 

VERACRUZ was originally THEODOR HERZL, a sister of JERUSALEM. She was sold by Zim to Ted Arison in 1970; he renamed her CARNIVALE and she would have been the first Carnival ship but this didn't happen and in 1975 she was sold to the Bahama Cruise Lines who renamed her FREEPORT. These were the same owners who later became Bermuda Star Lines, and later would rename her VERACRUZ, then VERACRUZ PRIMERO and finally VERACRUZ I. In 1989 she was sold to Festival Cruises and became SUN AMBASSADOR and then FIESTA. She was sent to Greece to undergo a refit, but during the refit burned and sank in 1991. She would have been the first Festival Cruises ship, but alas that wound up being THE AZUR in 1994 (Festival had owned her since 1987, but had chartered her to Chandris). It is rather ironic that she missed out on being the first ship for both Carnival and the similarly-named (but totally unrelated) Festival!

 

(Of course, Festival are now defunct, rather a large contrast to Carnival's huge success.)

 

I have been told that that these German-built Israeli liners were very difficult to work with, mechanically as their engine spaces were apparently very badly planned, like a car that requires an acrobat to change the oil!

In her last days VERACRUZ certainly gained a reputation as occupying the very bottom of the barrel of the US cruise market. A friend of mine was once a deck officer aboard her and always refers to her as the VERACRUD or VERYCRUDE ;) !

 

I'm surprised that similar chaos reigned on the QE2.

I'm not sure that chaos reigned, indeed I imagine most people never realised that all the locks were the same... But it certainly wasn't very secure, indeed the whole system of locks seemingly depended solely on people assuming that they couldn't open them!

 

Mind you, this is just something I've been told (by several people) as these locks were replaced before my time. Today the old locks are still there but to my knowledge they're not used any more. They've simply added a second lock to each cabin door and those are the ones that we use now. As I said, I assume the new ones are not all identical to each other but I haven't bothered to test that out. I guess I will have to do so next time I am aboard :) !

 

Anyhow, you certainly have some interesting stories about NEW BAHAMA STAR... Sounds as though she must have been an interesting ship to work aboard!

 

I wonder, though, how your Staff Captain's crewing practices would go over in today's security-conscious times ;) ?

 

I have to admit that of all the stories I've heard from people I know who have worked at sea, easily the most interesting came from an acquaintance who for a brief but very eventful period worked aboard AEGEAN SPIRIT (previously SYMPHONY/ENRICO COSTA/ENRICO C./PROVENCE) during her rather short career as such. Aside from being interesting, most of them were downright scary! Certainly not for the faint of heart, in particular those concerning safety and sanitation... (Well, they pretty much all concerned safety and sanitation... And suffice it to say, she was pretty filthy and pretty unsafe! No surprise then that in her next incarnation as OCEAN GLORY I she miserably failed a safety and health inspection in the UK and was arrested and auctioned off for scrap...)

[N7786W Flyer]

Just to add a little further confusion to the "Bahama Star" story, I think you'll find (and I'll check my files to make sure) that the "New Bahama Star" subsequently had its name shorted to "Bahama Star" in the early 70's.

 

Garnett

[nauditor]

Easily the most 'interesting' one I 'worked' on was the Galaxias ((Galaxy (ex-Dunottar Castle?)) for three days when she arrived in Acapulco from Victoria (1987?). What a disaster! I posted a story about the experience on CIS. Don't know if it's still archived there.

 

It might have been even more 'interesting' had I not had the foresight to get off before she sailed for Cancun. She never made it out of the Panama Canal. Passengers and crew were abandoned and had to have consular help to return home. There was a story about it in the Seattle paper.

 

I believe she was later bought by Louis Cruise Lines for cruises out of Cyprus.

 

I think you're right on the money here. [...]

 

Anyhow, you certainly have some interesting stories about NEW BAHAMA STAR... Sounds as though she must have been an interesting ship to work aboard!

 

I wonder, though, how your Staff Captain's crewing practices would go over in today's security-conscious times ;) ?

 

I have to admit that of all the stories I've heard from people I know who have worked at sea, easily the most interesting came from an acquaintance who for a brief but very eventful period worked aboard AEGEAN SPIRIT (previously SYMPHONY/ENRICO COSTA/ENRICO C./PROVENCE) during her rather short career as such. Aside from being interesting, most of them were downright scary! Certainly not for the faint of heart, in particular those concerning safety and sanitation... (Well, they pretty much all concerned safety and sanitation... And suffice it to say, she was pretty filthy and pretty unsafe! No surprise then that in her next incarnation as OCEAN GLORY I she miserably failed a safety and health inspection in the UK and was arrested and auctioned off for scrap...)

[...]

[Druke I]

Host Doug

 

There are those that would say you and I are cynical for suggesting that some ships were "lost while under tow" for insurance purposes.

 

Be that as it may, I am sure that has happened, and am still surprised that Norway (France) didn't sink while under tow.

[N7786W Flyer]

Nauditor,

 

I remember the Galaxias and a posting from several years ago on another website. If your posting is the same I remember, the air-conditioning wasn't working, there wasn't power to certain areas of the ship, but the owner (?) was more intent on providing power to the musicians than to the Purser's Office. I also remember statements about the crew mutinying and confronting the captain. Seems I also remember mentioning of no records of when the crew signed on the ship...no formal passenger list, etc.

 

Sounded like a little ship of horrors!

 

Garnett

[dougnewmanatsea]

Easily the most 'interesting' one I 'worked' on was the Galaxias ((Galaxy (ex-Dunottar Castle?))

GALAXIAS was the former SCOTTISH COAST, later Louis' PRINCESA AMOROSA. She was broken up in 2002; here is a photo of her at the breakers'.

 

The former DUNNOTTAR CASTLE later became Incres' VICTORIA, then Chandris' THE VICTORIA, and finally Louis' PRINCESA VICTORIA. You can read more about her here.

 

Interestingly, both ships were built at Harland & Wolff (though 21 years apart) and eventually wound up as running-mates at Louis.

[nauditor]

Here's a Simplonpc link to a shot of Galaxias that's closer to what she looked like in Acapulco in '89, not '87 as I guessed before. (My memory of what ship I was on is often out by abt. 2 yrs).

http://simplonpc.co.uk/HandWStandards3-BandL.html#anchor78868

So, Dunnottar Castle was 1936, and Scottish Coast was 1957, eh? From Galaxias' general condition, I'd have thought she was built 30 years before!

 

She had a DC circuit as well as AC. I think the latter was 240V/50Hz. She also had one of those old telephone exchanges with hundreds of spaghetti-likes wires; (not in working order, of course). I had forgotten about the owners' rep concentrating on getting power to the speakers rather than more critical ship systems. They were travel agents rather than ops people.

 

Examples of screwups are too numerous to mention. (All keys fitting all pax cabins was in this case just a minor one!) One example: some cabins had been sold on the basis of a nice new brochure that assumed an entire section of formerly crew-cabins were converted. But the whole section had been untouched, and remained behind an immovable bulkhead, which in turn was hidden behind piles of dusty carpeting and other bric-a-brac.

 

The worst thing was that the entire set-up seemed to me to be a pyramid-scheme. (And it turned out later that indeed the ship had been sold several times over before limping like the Nan-Shan into Acapulco). So, they ran low on funds before work was done; then had A/C and refrig. trouble and got a quick fix in San Pedro or San Diego; then had more trouble on arrival Acapulco, such that pax had to go to hotels, or sleep on the boat deck.

 

I smelled trouble. (There ain't no emoticon for this statement :)) I stayed two days, and spent the 3rd day waiting in the lobby for the agent to get me a hotel and flight to Miami the next day. While waiting, I saw most of the Mexican contigent demanding their passports back.

 

A few weeks later one of the passengers sent me a newspaper clipping about the 'mutiny' and the wounding of the captain. It also spoke of further refrig. trouble, with all perishables having to be thrown overboard. I gather there was a total breakdown half-way through the Canal. I guess the owners vanished, leaving the passengers and crew to get home as best they could.

 

 

GALAXIAS was the former SCOTTISH COAST, later Louis' PRINCESA AMOROSA. She was broken up in 2002; here is a photo of her at the breakers'.

 

The former DUNNOTTAR CASTLE later became Incres' VICTORIA, then Chandris' THE VICTORIA, and finally Louis' PRINCESA VICTORIA. You can read more about her here.

 

Interestingly, both ships were built at Harland & Wolff (though 21 years apart) and eventually wound up as running-mates at Louis.

[SingerEsq]

Another good historical website is:

 

ss Maritime

 

However, it deals more with older liners rather than cruise ships. But, many a liner ended her days a cruise ship.

[karenj4546]

"If I am not mistaken, I think the Queen Elizabeth sank in Hong Kong harbor didn't it?"

 

Yes, the QE sank in Hong Kong harbor. It was being refurbished by Semester at Sea to be used for its' program. SAS had to scramble to come up with another ship. The entire crew of SAS was from Hong Kong, so I doubt that it was intentional....it set SAS back both time-line-wise and for workers.

[Peter_LT]

Or... All the locks on the ship were the same!

 

(This is not as rare as it sounds. I am told that all the original cabin locks on QE2 were identical! They've sinced added new ones, which I suppose are not all the same, though I never thought to try to open a friend's cabin with my key to test it out...)

 

I'm amazed at reading this about door locks on crew cabins. It would be

really interesting to know when cabin door locks were introduced, because

I have no recollection of any doors being lockable on the ships I worked on

in the 1960's. The only thing that you could lock was a steel locker for which

you provided your own padlock!

 

The idea of having to try and negotiate locked doors in an emergency at sea

fills me with complete horror - in those situations seconds count - so opportunities

of going back to look for people possibly trapped in a locked cabin would be

almost non-existant! Even the crew bunk bedding was made in such a way

that it was easy to get out of them in an emergency.

 

In fact, on board Caronia, before her air-conditioning was fitted in 1956, even

passenger cabins were not locked. The "Cruise News" carried a regular message

asking people to leave their doors "on the latch" to allow ventilation into the

corridors. The "on the latch" bit was a brass fitting on the door jamb that

would secure the door in an open position with about a 2-3" gap.

 

Regards,

Steve (Peter_LT)

Caronia II Timeline Webmaster

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