Comparing Viking to Oceania

[KBs mum]

13 hours ago, Syd58 said:

We use one of the top volume TAs in the U.S. The TA was informed.  I have little doubt Viking will change its policy.  The point is there are many people, both those with handicaps and those without, who are not fans of this policy. 

Read the information on Viking's website relating to mobility/medical equipment, and disabilities. 

Comply with that, you'll have no problems. Anything else you have to get permission for, this is standard procedure for ships, trains and aircraft, and not discriminatory.  Often the problem with scooters is the lithium batteries, and size.

It's also normal to book then sort out any arrangements for equipment. If the website of whatever company says yours may not be allowed, you either book with another provider, or chance it. You probably will be allowed it if the battery is OK to go on an aircraft and the charger isn't surge protected.

You will also need to be able to get it into/out of and on/off transport and the ship with no assistance. 

If the scooter is a travel scoot or similar, or one of the folds into a case type you should be fine, there should be a page in the manual with the battery info required 

[CDNPolar]

13 hours ago, Syd58 said:

We have never kept a scooter in a hallway, nor ever will.  Scooters stored in hallways should be forbidden on all cruiseships.This lightweight scooter is barely as wide as some people and easily fits through the door of a regular cabin. We have never had a problem with gangways, but if need be, my wife has a walker as well.  The scooter can be easily folded and is about the size of a suitcase. She has MS and the scooter is definitely a major plus for her.  To those of you who have made negative comments, I pray that you never need some sort of assistance.  Unfortunately as people age, the odds are pretty good that you might. I suspect your perspective will be quite different then.

 

I am sorry if you found my comments negative.  There was no intent to offend you.  I was adding some facts that I have learned from Viking and others that have travelled on Viking ships.  

 

I will say that if you found my comments negative, then you are quite sensitive.  I was adding these in case you were not aware...

 

You don't know my medical or disability status and you don't know my "perspective".

 

My comments were meant to be helpful, so if you saw them otherwise then that is on you.

 

I am sorry if I offended you.

Edited May 4 by CDNPolar

[DrKoob]

9 hours ago, Syd58 said:

Corporate policies are not stagnant. They change relative to internal and external factors, including customer demands and preferences, competition, regulations, laws, environment, etc. For example, if enough people said they were not going to pay a deposit as far in advance as Viking requires, Viking would have to modify this policy.

You are correct. Some corporate policies can be changed like the deposit/final payment situation. But they won't be changed until their ships start sailing with a lot of empty staterooms. So far, even with all the complaining, that hasn't happened yet. I tell friends about Viking and they complain about the deposit/final payment policy but lo and behold, they are on the cruise with me. Because they like the Viking experience. 

 

Other corporate policies can't be changed because of the physical environment. For example, ship design can only change with new ship builds. God knows, Viking likes to build ships but Tor discovered you can save a buttload of money by reusing the same plans over and over again. And that some people don't care (the ones he wants to attract) that every ship looks the same. They don't need the whiz-bang water slides and the platforms that go up and down on the side of the ship. They just want to go to cool places, on beautiful ships, see the ocean and not get nickeled and dimed to death. That said, the ship design doesn't really work with scooters and chairs, so they won't push for that particular guest. They will continue to do what they do in their niche. And those who love them will come back because they are in that niche.

[DrKoob]

9 hours ago, Syd58 said:

Of course, any business can do 'whatever' it wants to do, at least in the short-run, but this doesn't mean it is the 'right' thing to do. Have you heard of the term 'social responsibility'? 

Social responsibility really does not apply here. You have a choice as to which cruise you take. If you have wants or needs that do not fit the Viking model, you should go elsewhere. If Viking was the only cruise line in the world, then yes, they should allow for some leeway. But there are plenty of other cruise lines (many have been listed here) that would be happy to take your money. 

[Cienfuegos]

Companies are often very aware of customer attitudes, and will adjust policies as they feel appropriate. However, companies are also sensitive to the needs of distributors / sales agencies, etc.

 

When travel agents, booking groups, etc begin to complain or divert business elsewhere, it will be noticed.

[DrKoob]

36 minutes ago, Cienfuegos said:

Companies are often very aware of customer attitudes, and will adjust policies as they feel appropriate. However, companies are also sensitive to the needs of distributors / sales agencies, etc.

 

When travel agents, booking groups, etc begin to complain or divert business elsewhere, it will be noticed.

Absolutely it will but that hasn't happened yet because of the quality of the cruising world in general. And Viking makes sure that TAs absolutely love them. As a former TA, I can tell you that they are the BEST at paying commissions because they pay commission on EVERYTHING! And they have the best phone reps in the industry. They ALWAYS answer the phones before the third ring and you never get a hold time that exceeds a very few minutes. I have sat on hold with some of the mainstream lines for more than an hour. 

[Syd58]

6 hours ago, KBs mum said:

Read the information on Viking's website relating to mobility/medical equipment, and disabilities. 

Comply with that, you'll have no problems. Anything else you have to get permission for, this is standard procedure for ships, trains and aircraft, and not discriminatory.  Often the problem with scooters is the lithium batteries, and size.

It's also normal to book then sort out any arrangements for equipment. If the website of whatever company says yours may not be allowed, you either book with another provider, or chance it. You probably will be allowed it if the battery is OK to go on an aircraft and the charger isn't surge protected.

You will also need to be able to get it into/out of and on/off transport and the ship with no assistance. 

If the scooter is a travel scoot or similar, or one of the folds into a case type you should be fine, there should be a page in the manual with the battery info required 

We were in line with their policy, but I decided to call to confirm and was told that I would need to book first and then submit a request to have the scooter approved. I asked if the deposit would be refunded if the scooter was not approved and the representative indicated we might lose an administrative fee. I did not receive guidance regarding the refundability of the deposit should the scooter not be approved. Note part of an e-mail I received from Viking was published in an earlier post.  Regarding lithium batteries, we specifically searched for a lightweight foldable mobility scooter without a lithium battery (they are hard to find) as some Asian airlines will not allow these on their aircraft.  

[Syd58]

4 hours ago, DrKoob said:

You are correct. Some corporate policies can be changed like the deposit/final payment situation. But they won't be changed until their ships start sailing with a lot of empty staterooms. So far, even with all the complaining, that hasn't happened yet. I tell friends about Viking and they complain about the deposit/final payment policy but lo and behold, they are on the cruise with me. Because they like the Viking experience. 

 

Other corporate policies can't be changed because of the physical environment. For example, ship design can only change with new ship builds. God knows, Viking likes to build ships but Tor discovered you can save a buttload of money by reusing the same plans over and over again. And that some people don't care (the ones he wants to attract) that every ship looks the same. They don't need the whiz-bang water slides and the platforms that go up and down on the side of the ship. They just want to go to cool places, on beautiful ships, see the ocean and not get nickeled and dimed to death. That said, the ship design doesn't really work with scooters and chairs, so they won't push for that particular guest. They will continue to do what they do in their niche. And those who love them will come back because they are in that niche.

If the ship design doesn't work, then why do many of their ships have a few accessible penthouse junior suites? Clearly, it does work - part of the issue is that passengers who need accessible cabins cannot book a regular veranda cabin on some of their ships, rather have to pay considerably more for a penthouse junior suite.

Edited May 4 by Syd58

[Syd58]

4 hours ago, DrKoob said:

Social responsibility really does not apply here. You have a choice as to which cruise you take. If you have wants or needs that do not fit the Viking model, you should go elsewhere. If Viking was the only cruise line in the world, then yes, they should allow for some leeway. But there are plenty of other cruise lines (many have been listed here) that would be happy to take your money. 

Other cruise lines having preferable accessibility policies has absolutely nothing to do with the social responsibility actions of Viking.

[Syd58]

2 hours ago, DrKoob said:

Absolutely it will but that hasn't happened yet because of the quality of the cruising world in general. And Viking makes sure that TAs absolutely love them. As a former TA, I can tell you that they are the BEST at paying commissions because they pay commission on EVERYTHING! And they have the best phone reps in the industry. They ALWAYS answer the phones before the third ring and you never get a hold time that exceeds a very few minutes. I have sat on hold with some of the mainstream lines for more than an hour. 

Thanks for this post. In light of the current discussion, it is quite telling...

[DrKoob]

1 hour ago, Syd58 said:

If the ship design doesn't work, then why do many of their ships have a few accessible penthouse junior suites? Clearly, it does work - part of the issue is that passengers who need accessible cabins cannot book a regular veranda cabin on some of their ships, rather have to pay considerably more for a penthouse junior suite.

I'm not saying the ship design doesn't work. I am saying that Viking would rather not have to deal with it but so they can say they do deal with it, they provide some fairly high priced staterooms where there is more room to accommodate a few. Then they can say that they are "accessible." 

 

Please don't interpret my explaining their business as endorsing their policies. I am just saying that as a person retired from the travel industry and from another marketing position, they do what they want because the CAN do it. They will continue to do it until they no longer have people who want their product. 

 

As far as being "socially responsible," they feel that they have done that because they have high-priced suites that they can show as being open to those with accessible needs.

[KBs mum]

2 hours ago, Syd58 said:

We were in line with their policy, but I decided to call to confirm and was told that I would need to book first and then submit a request to have the scooter approved. I asked if the deposit would be refunded if the scooter was not approved and the representative indicated we might lose an administrative fee. I did not receive guidance regarding the refundability of the deposit should the scooter not be approved. Note part of an e-mail I received from Viking was published in an earlier post.  Regarding lithium batteries, we specifically searched for a lightweight foldable mobility scooter without a lithium battery (they are hard to find) as some Asian airlines will not allow these on their aircraft.  

Nobody refunds deposits if you cancel because you want to take an item that isn't allowed, or don't meet the fitness to travel requirements. 

In our case we know the wheelchair is travel compatible, so we book with confidence. Read the cancellation policy to see if booking with whoever it is will be a financial risk. Scooters are listed as not usually allowed by Viking. 

I have not encountered any admin fees for the fitness to travel approval or booking deposit, check the T&C page for your country to see what you should be charged

[TableGirl]

Given the recent discussion I'm sharing this article that I will have to read more thoroughly as I have a friend with mobility issues (so far just a walker) that I cruise with.  One never knows when one might find oneself in a wheelchair.  I hope some might find this article helpful though it sounds like some have very carefully researched this topic.

 

 

https://thepointsguy.com/guide/cruise-tips-for-wheelchair-users/?utm_section=lat&utm_source=TPG Daily Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=9773196&utm_usr=8eff77074cdadb0f9664e891000ba85d5d122d05a634dc8dfe00585fdd2e8925

[Breckski]

On 5/4/2024 at 11:11 AM, Syd58 said:

Other cruise lines having preferable accessibility policies has absolutely nothing to do with the social responsibility actions of Viking.

So why don't you support these other lines and stop beating this horse on the Viking forum.

 

You don't like Viking's payment policies and that none of the least expensive cabins are accessible.  Good thing is you have options.  

 

And before someone says I'm unbelievably insensitive and they'll pray for me that I never have such mobility issues, I'm fully aware of the struggles such folks have - parents and uncle.  I actually asked them about this as I was concerned that I was being too hard with my thoughts as I clearly do not want to support something that makes their lives overly burdensome.  Given it's a small sample size of 3, but they all said they would not expect a cruise line to have accessible cabins for every category of stateroom.  And they all stated that they'd feel safer on a cruise in a larger stateroom.  From my experience in the various staterooms on Viking combined with knowledge of the exact mobility issues of family members, I feel a PS category room is ideal.  Better than an ES since all is open.

 

The real point is, I don't think all individuals with mobility issues share your opinion on Viking's policy toward the volume of ADA rooms by category.  To me it's rather harsh to imply Viking is socially irresponsible, and this comes from someone who clearly has issues with certain aspects of the line.

[Syd58]

5 hours ago, Breckski said:

So why don't you support these other lines and stop beating this horse on the Viking forum.

 

You don't like Viking's payment policies and that none of the least expensive cabins are accessible.  Good thing is you have options.  

 

And before someone says I'm unbelievably insensitive and they'll pray for me that I never have such mobility issues, I'm fully aware of the struggles such folks have - parents and uncle.  I actually asked them about this as I was concerned that I was being too hard with my thoughts as I clearly do not want to support something that makes their lives overly burdensome.  Given it's a small sample size of 3, but they all said they would not expect a cruise line to have accessible cabins for every category of stateroom.  And they all stated that they'd feel safer on a cruise in a larger stateroom.  From my experience in the various staterooms on Viking combined with knowledge of the exact mobility issues of family members, I feel a PS category room is ideal.  Better than an ES since all is open.

 

The real point is, I don't think all individuals with mobility issues share your opinion on Viking's policy toward the volume of ADA rooms by category.  To me it's rather harsh to imply Viking is socially irresponsible, and this comes from someone who clearly has issues with certain aspects of the line.

 

The quotes below are excerpts are from 2 separate e-mails I received from Viking.  I don't think it is appropriate to ask customers using a mobility scooter to book a cruise and pay a potentially non-refundable deposit and administrative fee prior to knowing whether a mobility scooter will be approved.  This is my opinion, and I think many others would agree. Keep in mind I had e-mailed Viking very specific dimensions and the weight of the scooter prior to receiving the below responses. The matter of accessible excursions is a separate issue. Do I think Viking should provide more accessible excursions - when they can -?  Absolutely. This is my opinion, and again I think there are others that would agree.  Keep in mind accessibility applies not just to people utilizing scooters or wheelchairs.  It could also apply to people using canes or to those who just need a little more time. Regarding accessible cabins, of course, Viking has the right to do whatever it chooses, but to require those with handicaps who need an accessible cabin to book a higher level category (on some ships) that typically costs significantly more is unseemly. This is my opinion, and I think there are others that would agree. Certainly, there are other lines that handle these things differently, and people have the right to select the line that best fits their needs.  With that said, this kind of information may well benefit others with similar needs as ours.

 

 

"We would not be able to submit your request for the motorized scooter until after you had your itinerary booked."

 

"It would be determined on a case by case basis. I would let the agent booking your trip know about the scooter so that we can process the request as quickly as possible to minimize the risk of losing these fees. These fees are usually only a non refundable amount of $100.00 per person". 

Edited May 6 by Syd58

[Syd58]

6 hours ago, TableGirl said:

Given the recent discussion I'm sharing this article that I will have to read more thoroughly as I have a friend with mobility issues (so far just a walker) that I cruise with.  One never knows when one might find oneself in a wheelchair.  I hope some might find this article helpful though it sounds like some have very carefully researched this topic.

 

 

https://thepointsguy.com/guide/cruise-tips-for-wheelchair-users/?utm_section=lat&utm_source=TPG Daily Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=9773196&utm_usr=8eff77074cdadb0f9664e891000ba85d5d122d05a634dc8dfe00585fdd2e8925

Thanks for posting this.  

[formernuke]

It seems likely that the accessible cabins need to have larger dimensions and thus a bigger sf. So costing more (at some level) does seem appropriate. If you are using more space than a standard DV (for example) it should cost more. Now whether the amount is proportional I can’t say).

[Syd58]

11 minutes ago, formernuke said:

It seems likely that the accessible cabins need to have larger dimensions and thus a bigger sf. So costing more (at some level) does seem appropriate. If you are using more space than a standard DV (for example) it should cost more. Now whether the amount is proportional I can’t say).

Some lines provide a larger bathroom (with a roll-in shower) and a little more floorspace (for wheelchair or scooter turning radius) at the same level non-accessible cabin. There may be some that I'm not aware of, but I personally don't know any others that require those needing an accessible cabin to pay considerably more to book a penthouse junior suite.

Edited May 6 by Syd58

[CurlerRob]

2 hours ago, Syd58 said:

Some lines provide a larger bathroom (with a roll-in shower) and a little more floorspace (for wheelchair or scooter turning radius) at the same level non-accessible cabin. There may be some that I'm not aware of, but I personally don't know any others that require those needing an accessible cabin to pay considerably more to book a penthouse junior suite.

Not all grass is greener. Oceania’s R ships have only 3 accessible cabins - all are inside cabins (Sirenia may have 2 OVs). No accessible cabins with balconies. They also have a habit of not holding them for those who actually need them. 
 

Certainly cheaper, but not without impact on the experience. 🍺🥌

[Syd58]

1 hour ago, CurlerRob said:

Not all grass is greener. Oceania’s R ships have only 3 accessible cabins - all are inside cabins (Sirenia may have 2 OVs). No accessible cabins with balconies. They also have a habit of not holding them for those who actually need them. 
 

Certainly cheaper, but not without impact on the experience. 🍺🥌

Their Edge class ships have a good number of accessible veranda cabins.

Edited May 7 by Syd58

[CurlerRob]

5 minutes ago, Syd58 said:

Their Edge class ships have a good number of accessible veranda cabins.

I believe you are referring to Celebrity, not O. 🍺🥌

[Syd58]

1 hour ago, CurlerRob said:

I believe you are referring to Celebrity, not O. 🍺🥌

Thanks. You are correct. The new Oceania ships also have a good number of accessible regular veranda cabins. We are booked in this type cabin for our 2 2025 transatlantic/Europe cruises.

[KBs mum]

7 hours ago, Syd58 said:

 

The quotes below are excerpts are from 2 separate e-mails I received from Viking.  I don't think it is appropriate to ask customers using a mobility scooter to book a cruise and pay a potentially non-refundable deposit and administrative fee prior to knowing whether a mobility scooter will be approved.  This is my opinion, and I think many others would agree. Keep in mind I had e-mailed Viking very specific dimensions and the weight of the scooter prior to receiving the below responses. The matter of accessible excursions is a separate issue. Do I think Viking should provide more accessible excursions - when they can -?  Absolutely. This is my opinion, and again I think there are others that would agree.  Keep in mind accessibility applies not just to people utilizing scooters or wheelchairs.  It could also apply to people using canes or to those who just need a little more time. Regarding accessible cabins, of course, Viking has the right to do whatever it chooses, but to require those with handicaps who need an accessible cabin to book a higher level category (on some ships) that typically costs significantly more is unseemly. This is my opinion, and I think there are others that would agree. Certainly, there are other lines that handle these things differently, and people have the right to select the line that best fits their needs.  With that said, this kind of information may well benefit others with similar needs as ours.

 

 

"We would not be able to submit your request for the motorized scooter until after you had your itinerary booked."

 

"It would be determined on a case by case basis. I would let the agent booking your trip know about the scooter so that we can process the request as quickly as possible to minimize the risk of losing these fees. These fees are usually only a non refundable amount of $100.00 per person". 

All accommodation providers who have several levels of room have the accessible ones in a mid range. Normally the lowest level that is physically big enough to allow a wheelchair to fit around the furniture. Viking is only ADA compliant, so adaptations are minimal by most European standards, nothing to worry about missing out on for most. 

Disabilities vary, you complain about being forced to book a larger room, yet others, including myself could book the smallest with no major problems. 

Viking's policy about scooters is fairly standard for providers where scooters are not normally permitted. Permission does depend on itinerary and room type. They aren't going to give permission only for you to book a room or itinerary that is going to create problems. 

After 10+ years of Viking cruises, river and ocean, I still need to fill out the fitness to travel and wheelchair/scooter permission paperwork. Same as I need to for airlines, sleeper trains and some ferries. It is a routine part of travel.

 

You are taking this personally, when it isn't, Viking have arrived at their policy after years of experience, it is to prevent issues. It applies for all their ships, boats, land transport and airline bookings. Some itineraries include air or land segments where third party policies need to be taken into account. They are open about not being very suitable for those with mobility problems, the ADA rooms are there purely to comply with the letter of the law. The stepped ramps stop them actually being accessible as most would understand it. 

Their business model is aimed at older physically active people, and it works well for them, they won't change it while the ships are full. 

 

Ultimately you do have a choice of rooms to book. Book one with another company who's business model and infrastructure meet your needs. Same as we and many others  do

 

 

[Syd58]

1 hour ago, KBs mum said:

All accommodation providers who have several levels of room have the accessible ones in a mid range. Normally the lowest level that is physically big enough to allow a wheelchair to fit around the furniture. Viking is only ADA compliant, so adaptations are minimal by most European standards, nothing to worry about missing out on for most. 

Disabilities vary, you complain about being forced to book a larger room, yet others, including myself could book the smallest with no major problems. 

Viking's policy about scooters is fairly standard for providers where scooters are not normally permitted. Permission does depend on itinerary and room type. They aren't going to give permission only for you to book a room or itinerary that is going to create problems. 

After 10+ years of Viking cruises, river and ocean, I still need to fill out the fitness to travel and wheelchair/scooter permission paperwork. Same as I need to for airlines, sleeper trains and some ferries. It is a routine part of travel.

 

You are taking this personally, when it isn't, Viking have arrived at their policy after years of experience, it is to prevent issues. It applies for all their ships, boats, land transport and airline bookings. Some itineraries include air or land segments where third party policies need to be taken into account. They are open about not being very suitable for those with mobility problems, the ADA rooms are there purely to comply with the letter of the law. The stepped ramps stop them actually being accessible as most would understand it. 

Their business model is aimed at older physically active people, and it works well for them, they won't change it while the ships are full. 

 

Ultimately you do have a choice of rooms to book. Book one with another company who's business model and infrastructure meet your needs. Same as we and many others  do

 

 

A number of Seabourn, Silversea, and Oceania's ships (especially the newer ones) do offer accessible veranda cabins without the need to upgrade to the penthouse level. How can Viking be ADA compliant when it is not a U.S.-based ship? The Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA) is an American act. There may be regulations in Norway or Switzerland that they follow.  Perhaps those regulations aren't as rigid as those of the ADA, I don't know. Seabourn, Silversea, Oceania, and Celebrity have policies that welcome people with disabilities who need accommodations. Note the first three of these have ocean-going ships about the same size or smaller than Viking.  Clearly, these lines are considering accessibility issues when they design new ships. Did you read the excerpts at the bottom of my last post? Requiring a passenger to complete a form is one thing; telling someone they have to book first, then complete the form and possibly lose some money (regardless of amount) is quite different. I do agree Viking's model is very clear. I also agree people have a choice.  I also know there are likely some people even without a disability who would prefer that Viking handle accessibility issues in a different way.

Edited May 7 by Syd58

[KBs mum]

11 hours ago, Syd58 said:

A number of Seabourn, Silversea, and Oceania's ships (especially the newer ones) do offer accessible veranda cabins without the need to upgrade to the penthouse level. How can Viking be ADA compliant when it is not a U.S.-based ship? The Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA) is an American act. There may be regulations in Norway or Switzerland that they follow.  Perhaps those regulations aren't as rigid as those of the ADA, I don't know. Seabourn, Silversea, Oceania, and Celebrity have policies that welcome people with disabilities who need accommodations. Note the first three of these have ocean-going ships about the same size or smaller than Viking.  Clearly, these lines are considering accessibility issues when they design new ships. Did you read the excerpts at the bottom of my last post? Requiring a passenger to complete a form is one thing; telling someone they have to book first, then complete the form and possibly lose some money (regardless of amount) is quite different. I do agree Viking's model is very clear. I also agree people have a choice.  I also know there are likely some people even without a disability who would prefer that Viking handle accessibility issues in a different way.

ADA compliant to operate in US coastal waters and for the majority US customers, shows reasonable adaptation to be compliant in Europe, there being so many countries involved worldwide nobody is bothered as long as some adaptions are shown.

The accessible facilities in the US don't meet UK legislation, to the point we dont bother booking or looking for them, so we don't book those rooms on Viking. 

 

Boooking first then asking about things not usually allowed is normal, I explained why. This is not unusual. 

If you are in North America you are only risking $50, hardly an issue, a decent TA will hold the booking for you at their risk while getting the answer. 

 

I realise you are dealing with a very nasty progressive condition, but working with an occupational therapist to develop 'coping strategies' will help you get as much travel freedom as possible. 

This is why I have the wheelchair and a scooter, using whichever is easiest in the circumstances, KBs Dad doing a fine job of helping on any steep bits. 

If you want to stay overnight at a friend's house they won't have adapted facilities, my rehab team made us stay in a small not adapted suite in the hospital to show we could cope with whatever. Not easy at the time but useful. Can also go up and down steps in wheelchair or on behind.