Technical Fire Discussion

[ssantow]

I have read this entire thread with great interest, and up to this point have had little or nothing to contribute. This may or may not be helpfull to those of you who have done such a fine job so far, but here it is

Here is a picture I came across that is very clear and at a very good angle to get an idea of the configuration of the balconies and what they looked like prior to the fire.

 

http://www.cruiseserver.net/images/news/news_star_princess_balconies_big.jpg

 

Hope this helps

[rosie the sailor]

"It all started around 2:00 am last Thursday morning. Richard Aldridge was out on the balcony." ""I look over and I see one cabin on fire. The fire was so small I said 'they'll put it out.' Then a ding, ding, ding went out over the intercom and they said all hands to deck," says Aldridge. He says he went back inside his room, but minutes later the fire had spread. I walk back out ten minutes later. The fire had made it from probably the 11th deck to the 5th." "He says it was what happened next that the Aldridge's did not expect.

Just doors down from their room, a blazing fire and everyone around them, they say, had no idea of the danger. "No fire alarm was sounding. Everyone was sleeping on our floor. So we woke everyone up that we could get to, banging on their doors." "They know the general fire alarm sounded around 3:10am"

 

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=54555

 

I can report that at 3:10 when the general alarm sounded, the fire was raging and covered at least 4 decks. It was also burning white hot, indicating an extremely hot fire. We were in the last cabin on deck 9 port side and the ship continued its forward motion for at least 30 minutes. Looking out from our balcony the fire & heat were like a huge blow torch moving from forward to aft. Numerous large embers landed on our balcony and deck chairs. I checked the chairs afterwards and I did not observe any scorching. These embers were hot, I believe hotter than a cigarette, but I could be wrong. I have heard 2 rumors while aboard the ship, one that an angry teenager was involved and the other about lighter fluid being ignited to shoot flames from the balcony. I hope the cause will be determined soon.

[brn2crz]

See..Its comments like this (above) that have me confused...The fire was raging...4 decks...And the general alarm just sounded??...That sounds to me like #1.Some folks were very lucky to get out of their rooms...and #2 It must have been something that ignited very fast.

[Cruise Cat]

Just a small theory on the fire alarms. I remember in college in the tower building we had that if someone set off a fire alram (happened way too frequently), then the alarm for the floor above and the floor below went off as well. If they were not silenced within a few minutes the whole building went off. Places like the smoke detectors in front of the elevators set off the whole building automatically.

 

Could the cruise ships have a delay/staggard pattern to their alarms as well? This could explain different recollections as to when the alrms when off.

[Cruise Cat]

I have read this entire thread with great interest, and up to this point have had little or nothing to contribute. This may or may not be helpfull to those of you who have done such a fine job so far, but here it is

Here is a picture I came across that is very clear and at a very good angle to get an idea of the configuration of the balconies and what they looked like prior to the fire.

 

http://www.cruiseserver.net/images/news/news_star_princess_balconies_big.jpg

 

Hope this helps

 

Take a look at the picture link that SSANTOW just posted and take a look at the deck plans and the post fire pics of the side. It looks to me that Cabins 402 through 424 on that side all have a double balcony with lots of wood (varnished bamboo?) furniture and pads. Looks like kindling to me!

 

[Cruise Cat]

The link below is to a picture af the Grand Suite balcony on the Star, not a Penthouse Suite, but it appears to me that these are the same chairs. These babies look like they will burn really good. Looks like the cigarette theory could still be viable as could numerous other ignition sources.

 

Picture

 

 

[bdjam]

What are the design faults that most concern you? Everything burns if the conditions are right - or if someone tries hard enough to get a fire started.

The post by Twinflow has now shown up on three threads and all three posts are virtually identical. Requests for details regarding the ambiguous post and its accusations are ignored. I don’t think there is any basis to the assumption in the posts that Star Princess is defective - and if there are, the poster needs to give them up and post them here to support his accusations. If you notice, all of the cruises this poster has taken have been on Carnival ships, except for Caribbean Princess. I believe the incident of fire on Carnival Cruise Line ships exceeds that of Princess.

I also note that I read this ship was "modified" in the shipyard from her sister class ships. As to liability Twinflow has it. Carnival cannot avoid this issue -the rapid spread- no insurance carrier will cover them until that is resolved.

Golden Princess was also modified from the original Grand Princess prototype – I wonder why we haven’t seen any of the same issues there given she has been in service longer. I believe the modifications were in interior design, obviously not an issue in this case. And as for the rapid spread of the fire, what is the issue? How can Carnival Corporation deal with the issue if they don't know what the result of the investigation - and therefore the issue - is? How do they address spring breakers freebasing on the balcony? PLEASE NOTE - I am not implying that was the cause of the fire - but since we don't know yet what was, it could have been and then this posts holds no water.

 

P.S. the video is no longer available.

[spongerob]

The link below is to a picture af the Grand Suite balcony on the Star, not a Penthouse Suite, but it appears to me that these are the same chairs. These babies look like they will burn really good. Looks like the cigarette theory could still be viable as could

This type of furniture is outside all the time in the weather. It is hard to describe, but the teak furniture feels like it is slightly damp and has a bit of a salt patina on it. It would take some effort to get it burning, I think, more than just a casually tossed butt.

[Globaliser]

See..Its comments like this (above) that have me confused...The fire was raging...4 decks...And the general alarm just sounded??...That sounds to me like #1.Some folks were very lucky to get out of their rooms...and #2 It must have been something that ignited very fast.

Could the cruise ships have a delay/staggard pattern to their alarms as well? This could explain different recollections as to when the alrms when off.

One thing that we may be forgetting is that different people may be referring to different things when talking abotu fire alarms.

 

ISTR hearing many times, at muster drills, that if you activate the fire alarm, the alarm is silent. It follows that audible alert signals are not used until a later time in the emergency when it becomes clear that the incident is not going to be rapidly contained. But it doesn't mean that nothing is being done in the meantime. Some reports may simply be about the time lag before an audible general alarm was sounded.

[CruiseWacker23]

Global I think your'e on target regarding the alarms. Some to the devices are designed to be "local only", otherwise the fire alarm would be going off ten times and day and when there really was a problem, no one would react. All alarms go to the bridge, which of course is manned 24/7 and someone sent immediately to check out the reason for the alarm. Many do not realize it but places such as nursing homes, prisons etc sometimes opt for the same setup for the same reason. On land, the authority having jurisdiction can deny this option if they feel the facility can not/does not react in a reasonable time.

 

Ruby...your'e right, a burn pattern from a flammable liquid looks the same to an investigator regardless if it was intentional or accidental. The WHY portion of the equation comes from all of the interviewing of the people who have had contact with the "suspect". Then and only then can a determination be made as to the motive.

 

Cat...after looking at SSantow's pics, the Caribe deck has substantially more fire load than the others. Even so, I am not ready to place my bet on the cigarette theory. Tests have shown that even in mock up living room senarios, the dirty little cig needs to snuggle itself down alongside the cushion and arm of a stuffed chair to start a smoldering fire. Granted, outside it would have had the wind to aid its growth potential but I still think its a long shot. Not impossible, but a long shot.

 

And yes twinflow, I agree with you. There is definately a problem, if not a design flaw, with the flame spread rating on the verandah areas. This fire got a good start and propogated rapidly. Even if the fire was deliberate, I doubt very much if it set by a professional torch. Imagine if someone that knew what they were doing lit one off! I say re-examine the flame spread properties of some of the furniture and take a long hard look at some type of recessed dry pipe sprinklers out there.

[donnaw]

 

And yes twinflow, I agree with you. There is definately a problem, if not a design flaw, with the flame spread rating on the verandah areas. This fire got a good start and propogated rapidly. Even if the fire was deliberate, I doubt very much if it set by a professional torch. Imagine if someone that knew what they were doing lit one off! I say re-examine the flame spread properties of some of the furniture and take a long hard look at some type of recessed dry pipe sprinklers out there.

 

I am assuming that one of the points that we have agreement on, at this time, is that an issue does exist which supported the rapid spread of the fire over the balconies. Here is hoping that it is addressed. I still question if the cantilevered balconies have more of an issue than the more traditional as on Regal Princess. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

[Saga Ruby]

CW, if I keep reading this thread, can I qualify for a Junior Fire Warden badge in a few years?

 

Ruby

[spongerob]

I am assuming that one of the points that we have agreement on, at this time, is that an issue does exist which supported the rapid spread of the fire over the balconies. Here is hoping that it is addressed. I still question if the cantilevered balconies have more of an issue than the more traditional as on Regal Princess. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

Here's my thought, based on assumption that the fire started in a Baja deck balcony.

 

Baja balconies are narrow and fully covered, and would therefore be the most similar to what you would get on Regal Princess or the Sun-class ships. The difference is that the divider is a lightweight aluminum/fiberglass piece instead of metal. First, I think it would be comparatively less likely that a burning object (cigarette, joint, cigar, flaming sambuca) casually discarded from a random balcony would end up there. I think it would be more likely for trash to end up on one of the exposed Caribe or Dolphin balconies.

 

By the same token, one would think that having more containment in a Baja balcony would tend to limit the spread. I think other factors are in play. Certainly the materials used for furniture, decking etc are regulated by SOLAS and have minimum standards for flammability.

[DonLou]

SSantow - Great pictures of the balcony setup. Thanks.

 

CruiseWacker23 - I'm not too sure if it's fair to say that Caribe has a more substantial fire load than the other decks. There are six suites on that side of the deck with double width balconies. These balconies may have had wood furniture. It's hard to believe that this furniture by itself could maintain a significant fire hazard condition if set on fire. I don't know. It just doesn't seem likely. A question does come up though. The suites with the double width balconies don't have a dividing wall. Does this help to contain the fire or encourage the spread of it? Thanks once again for your informative views.

[brn2crz]

One thing that we may be forgetting is that different people may be referring to different things when talking abotu fire alarms.

 

ISTR hearing many times, at muster drills, that if you activate the fire alarm, the alarm is silent. It follows that audible alert signals are not used until a later time in the emergency when it becomes clear that the incident is not going to be rapidly contained. But it doesn't mean that nothing is being done in the meantime. Some reports may simply be about the time lag before an audible general alarm was sounded.

 

 

Great Point...Thanks

[seaventurer]

I read every page and most of the posts on this thread and aplaud those of you who took the time and effort to validate their opinions.

 

This is a thread based ONLY ON OPINION...so WAKE UP.

 

The STAR took a beating...she is on her way to Europe for repairs and will ultimately recover from the damage she sustained.

 

We will not see non smoking ships (thanks to the failure of Carnival's Paradise)...some cruiselines limit smoking (Oceania)...

 

Steel will not replace aluminimum on ship's superstructures based on weight and cost efficiencies...ships will not get smaller.

 

Princess (and the Star crew and staff in particular) should be rewarded for showing the world and public in general that while disasters at sea can occur, they can be contained to the point of avoiding a major failure and loss of life. Cruising is safe. HOWEVER, once the investigation is complete, further preventive safety issues may have to be employed and we should all remain confident that cruising will continue to be safe.

 

IMO - no cigarette butt caused this incident. I am a smoker and very cautious but sparks can and do fly...something started this fire with intention...and we will see...

 

God Bless this ship, her crew and the recovering passengers...and let's go foward...the experts will determine the cause...sail on...

[Host Anne]

A quick note ~ I, like many others, have been following this thread with great interest over the past week. Posters have done a terrific job of staying on topic while remaining civil towards all.

 

We're going to keep it that way so that this thread may continue. I hope everyone agrees and will avoid the pitfalls that sometimes find their way into threads.

[donnaw]

A quick note ~ I, like many others, have been following this thread with great interest over the past week. Posters have done a terrific job of staying on topic while remaining civil towards all.

 

We're going to keep it that way so that this thread may continue. I hope everyone agrees and will avoid the pitfalls that sometimes find their way into threads.

 

And very timely!

 

Rob, Thanks for the answer. Pretty much what I thought but glad to hear it from someone else. It does appear that the balcony design has some different considerations with the cantilever which may not be quite the same issues on the Sun class and older ships. Any other opinions?

[Saga Ruby]

We're going to keep it that way so that this thread may continue. I hope everyone agrees and will avoid the pitfalls that sometimes find their way into threads.

 

Well said, Anne. This thread has been so educational and has contributed greatly to my awareness of safety at sea. And I'm sure that others share my "opinion."

 

According to the bridge cam, the Star is "bound for Bremerhaven." When preliminary and final reports come out in the future, I will be well-armed with knowledge so graciously shared by the wonderful folks who have contributed their time and expertise in making this thread so informative.

 

Ruby

[Cindy]

A quick note ~ I, like many others, have been following this thread with great interest over the past week. Posters have done a terrific job of staying on topic while remaining civil towards all.

 

We're going to keep it that way so that this thread may continue. I hope everyone agrees and will avoid the pitfalls that sometimes find their way into threads.

 

Well said, and I couldn't agree more! I have found this thread to be very informative, and I really appreciate the expert opinions from professionals. I have learned a lot about travel/cruise safety, and will probably do some things differently on my cruise in June because of the things I've learned.

[CruiseWacker23]

SSantow - Great pictures of the balcony setup. Thanks.

 

CruiseWacker23 - I'm not too sure if it's fair to say that Caribe has a more substantial fire load than the other decks. There are six suites on that side of the deck with double width balconies. These balconies may have had wood furniture. It's hard to believe that this furniture by itself could maintain a significant fire hazard condition if set on fire. I don't know. It just doesn't seem likely. A question does come up though. The suites with the double width balconies don't have a dividing wall. Does this help to contain the fire or encourage the spread of it? Thanks once again for your informative views.

 

Don - I would say that the double width balconies (with the additional wooden deck furniture) would add to the fire spread. Its just like the theory of fire doors / fire walls / fire separation...anything to slow the fire and or smoke spread is advantageous to fire control and life safety. This is all based on the assumption that the separation itself does not have a high flame spread rating itself. Granted, these dividers are not floor to ceiling and the fire easily went under and over but I have to believe they had to slow the momentum a little. I think it makes it even more likely that it started on the Caribe deck.

 

Even in dwelling fires, a closed hollow core luan door is of some value in this regard, albeit not very long. On the HAL ships, these balconey dividers are aluminum. As we all know and certainly found out on this fire, aluminum melts fairly easily but it still holds its ground against fire longer than most ordinary class A combustibles. At some point in time though, if the fire has gained enough of a start, these barriers become less and less of a stop against the fire's growth.

 

Yes Ruby, expect to be awarded a Jr. Fire Investigator's pin to wear with your Mariner pin on your next cruise. :D

[ccrain]

For the fire experts:

 

Here's a couple of questions that's nagging at me.

 

No matter how the fire started, the spread was through the existing materials on the balconies. While some wood is present, its mostly the blue plastic matting, the resin chairs and tables, maybe the paint.

 

So what are the pros and cons of the matting and the resin materials? Are they more flammable when they melt, but more resistant when whole? What's the chemical composition that is causing such an intense fire.

 

I also viewed the video and noticed that the spray of water actually seemed to spread the fire - similar to a petroleum fire - but much more intense. Were we seeing the molten, burning remains of the matting and resin chairs being spread around, or was the fire actually hot enough to disassociate water and allow the hydrogen to burn or was this burning aluminum?

[NHcruisers]

I am not a firefighter but am fairly technical.

 

Here are my thoughts on the fire:

 

1. There is not enough fuel mass consisting of PVC chairs and Teak furniture. They only contributed to the burn.

2. By all accounts the ship was moving at between 18-20 knots. Jamaican weather service puts the wind at 15 mph. More than enough oxygen to get those flames moving. Although some passengers reported it as a headwind, it was almost certainly coming in on an oblique angle to the side that the fire was on or why else would the captain turn the ship to put the fire alee?

3. Videos show a very, dark inky smoke and passengers reported the same.

4. PVC when it burns gives off a high optical density (very black), twice as dense as smoke from burning wood. But if only chairs were considered, again you don't have enough mass and there is a natural firebreak caused by the space between the furniture.

5. On the Golden Princess ( 2 months ago) I examined the blue matting because it was uncomfortable to walk on. I had expected a springier, more rubberized surface. On my hands and knees, I tried depressing the matting with my fingernail and could barely make any depression so I concluded it was a PVC-type (there's lots of them) material with very little, if any, rubber content.

6. Most of the tests on flame spread on PVC type materials that I've seen were done statically in chambers. PVC has about half the flame spread rate as wood but I don't recall ever seeing any research on PVC when subjected to 30 plus mile an hour winds.

7. The matting is about 1/2 inch thick. When you do the volume calculation of the affected area of the balconies affected, its clear you have quite a bit of fuel mass. I believe, but am not sure, that the matting is pretty continuous, that the dividers wouldn't have acted as a firebreak.

8. My guess is that the wind pattern is very different on the Star because of its terraced decks. I also believe that initial 15 plus mph wind striking the balcony obliquely or abeam would tend to "dip down" after crossing the balcony rail potentially carrying burning debris and perhaps even flames from the fire from the balcony deck below directly onto to the matting of the balcony above. Teak loungers and PVC chairs added to the fuel mass but wre not signifcant factors in the fire relative to the mass of the matting consumed.

9. By the time you had enough balconies in flames, it wouldn't take long with these temperatures for the aluminum to start to burn. And so it MIGHT have been...seems logical to me but then again I wasn't there and I'm not a fireman.

 

I don't have a clue on the cause, but because of the burn characteristics of PVC, it would be extraordinary if a single cigarette could ignite the matting by itself.

 

Any comments on this possible scenario?

 

Best regards--

Bill

[alibail]

Not that I’m jumping down the route of a cigarette started it, but I have been wondering this for a few days now.

 

I for one place wet towels etc. out on the balcony over night to dry (particularly if I was at the beach and there covered in a yucky sand / water mixture. Now if I have done this, chances are that at least 1 other person does.

 

I know this is a big assumption but say a cigarette was flung over from one of the decks above (or above and forward) and proceeded to blow in and just by chance landed on said towel on the teak furniture. Whereas the furniture may not have been ignitable by the cigarette a towel certainly is.

 

Hypothetically the towel could have ignited, causing the teak chair to ignite. Which could then in theory cause whatever else was out there to ignite, and in turn the PVC matting?

 

Not that I’m expecting anyone to jump down my throat since this thread has remained very civil, but please note that this is a ‘hypothetical towel’ or other flammable clothing object / newspapers etc.

[Saga Ruby]

In the sense of investigative oversight, does anyone take an interest in the number of days that the Star was in Freeport? We know the fire started early in the morning on Thursday the 23rd, and we know from the bridge cam that she is underway to Bremerhaven in the early morning of Saturday, April 1st.

 

Is that amount of time in Freeport about standard for investigation of a "regrettable accident?"

 

Ruby