Star Fire - Origin Cabin

[ckgonska]

I Do

During and after photos.

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ckgonska@netzero.net

[MaryPoppinz]

A bunch of different staff members told me that they believe it started on deck 11 in cabin 304 or 306.

 

That's very interesting. Baja 304/306 would be near the forward stairwell, forward of the Lido deck overhang. This is much more forward than I would have expected -- in fact, in the photographs, it doesn't look as those these cabins would have been affected. ??

[iowaoly]

iowated,

 

????? It's 3AM and you're in the internet cafe' and your kids are sleeping in the Wheelhouse Bar on a sofa? Guess you're not morning people. Why does that sound odd to me?

 

 

AliceS,

Yes, my wife and I could not sleep as we had an 18 year old son who had just returned from a high school band trip to Disney and we were anxious to hear from him. We had gone to bed at 11 and woke up about 3. Why is this odd? Our15 year old son who was with us went to the Wheelhouse Bar, which was in his muster station and fell asleep on a couch. We are happy that he was safe, but were very worried at the time because we couldn't find him. Please don't be so judgmental when you don't know the whole situation and the facts. I am posting on IowaOly's name as I am on her computer

[MaryPoppinz]

Our15 year old son who was with us went to the Wheelhouse Bar, which was in his muster station and fell asleep on a couch.

 

I was sure that was what you meant. :) When he left his cabin at the time of the fire, he went to his muster station in the Wheelhouse -- as he should have done -- and was sleeping there when you found him.

[ckgonska]

My photos ar taken from room D236 at about 3:15 and show the fire about 6 cabins down and 1 to two floors up. putting the fire around C or b 308 or 310.

[ckgonska]

My photos ar taken from room D236 at about 3:15 and show the fire about 6 cabins down and 1 to two floors up. putting the fire around C (Deck 10)or B(Deck 11) 308 or 310.

[GoodAsGold]

Don't you mean the Carnival Ecstasy?

 

 

Whatever is determined to be the cause of the fire, it does not make sense to denounce the possibility that this could have been caused by a cigarette. If memory serves me, the Carnival Elation fire was caused by a single spark from a welder's iron. I was aboard the Constitution years ago when a fire broke out from freshly ironed sheets being packed away in the laundry before they were cooled. Princess routinely makes annoucments requesting that people refrain from throwing things overboard, especially lit cigarettes b/c they can be drawn back into the ship and cause a fire. These are not just idle announcments. A Discovery Channel documentary on the renovation of (I think) an RCCL ship explained how a single spark or ember can travel through a ship's ventilation system and result in a fire far away from its origin.

 

One of the worst things that can happen in a hotel or a cruise ship is a fire. This is due to readily available accelerants (furniture, carpet, wood, rubber flooring on balconey decks, etc.), their proximity, how fast a relatively small fire can spread and how hot they can be (e.g., melted balconies). Such disasters as the MGM fire and the San Juan Dupont fire come to mind, and it is only b/c of the fire suppression crews and equipment such as those aboard the Star, the Elation and the now-gone Connie that avert such tragedies.

[kryos]

Will be interesting to follow this and see if the origin cabin occupant will be prosecuted. Can you just imagine the financial ruin this would cause for an individual......

Why should they necessarily be prosecuted? If the fire started on their balcony ... and it was 3:00 a.m. or later ... perhaps they were sound asleep in bed at the time, and the fire started as a result of someone on another balcony throwing something onto their's. Just because the fire started on one passenger's balcony does not mean they were responsible for it. Also, the fire could be of an origin that would indicate it couldn't have been their fault ... such as faulty electrical wiring.

 

I doubt Princess will prosecute anybody ... unless this fire is deemed to have been intentionally set.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[Princess Chatterer]

We overheard the firefighter say that they had determined that the fire started on the Baha (deck 11) 310 cabin's balcony.

 

That's a lot further forward than I would have thought. Here's the Star Princess Baja deck plan link.

 

http://www.princess.com/ships/tp/deck/tp_baja_index.html

 

This could be right however. Here's a picture of the fire taken from Dolphin 236

 

http://princessshutter.com/starfire22a.jpg

[dancer 2]

Having cruised many times, mostly with balcony staterooms, I'm still wondering what could burn? It's all plastic and metal, could a cigarette really start a fire on that??:confused:

[johnny cruise]

Having cruised many times, mostly with balcony staterooms, I'm still wondering what could burn? It's all plastic and metal, could a cigarette really start a fire on that??:confused:

 

 

This is what ive been thinking.

 

 

JC

[gtalum]

No one will be prosecuted civilly, because Princess knows that generally your average person can't afford enough to make litigation worthwhile. If the fire is determined to be intentionally set, I'm sure that someone will be criminally charged with arson. Princess won't pay anything anyway, their insurance will.

[johnny cruise]

 

 

. Princess won't pay anything anyway, their insurance will.

 

 

I'm sure it will be passed on to us, not the one thats charged.

 

JC

[Globaliser]

Aren't the balconies made of steel? What would have been hot enough to melt them away?:confused:

Possibly aluminium, actually. Relatively easy to melt, compared to steel.

[wka_orlando]

As I posted on another thread, it will be interesting to see if they investigate the way the Star burned so easily compared to the Diamonds burning up while still being built in Japan. In that fire, there were reports concerned with how easily she went up and the extrem amount of damage from what should have been a small fire. Both ships where built together at the same time in the same yard.

 

Gotta wonder if there are materials in use that are not the best choices. I have never seen pics of a ship burned up so badly as these two... Wonder what the materials differences are between the Japaneese built ships and the European ones...

 

Just seems strange that two of the most server fires happened to sister ships...

[sunshine426]

Iowaly so glad to hear your responce. I knew immediatly that your kids were asleep in the wheelhouse bar because it was their muster station. Really people, don't jump all over us parents about everything.

[Globaliser]

[quote name='wka_orlando']As I posted on another thread, it will be interesting to see if they investigate the way the Star burned so easily compared to the Diamonds burning up while still being built in Japan. In that fire, there were reports concerned with how easily she went up and the extrem amount of damage from what should have been a small fire. Both ships where built together at the same time in the same yard.
...
Just seems strange that two of the most server fires happened to sister ships...[/QUOTE]This is not true.

The [I]Diamond[/I] and the [I]Sapphire[/I] were the two ships built in Japan.

The [I]Star[/I] was (AFAIK) built in Italy, at Fincantieri. She is certainly not a sister ship to the [I]Diamond[/I] and the [I]Sapphire[/I].

[spongerob]

You are correct, Globaliser. Star Princess was built in Italy.

Note - fires in shipyards are unfortunately common. The hot work involved and construction materials spread out add a lot of fuel, plus fire suppression systems might not be in place. There is no connection between these two events.

[zackiedawg]

(part of my post to another thread - but on subject here)
If the rumors of the fire starting on the balcony of Baja 310 or Caribe 310 are true (and it is possible), then this would make perfect sense for the burn pattern. Baja 310, on Deck 11, is located just above the halfway point of the third full lifeboat from the bow, roughly two rooms under the Lido deck overhang, and two decks down from the Lido. This is at the very front of the burned section, and all burn is aft of that location, making the ship’s forward motion the primary influence on the direction of the fire’s spread. The fire does drop down to Caribe deck fairly extensively, which is feasible given the tiered deck layout and smaller balcony sizes. And the fire does extend all the way to the Lido overhang, where further upward growth appears to have been stemmed by the overhanging deck. Some of the Plexiglas panels on Lido show melt patterns, and some of the Lido overhang’s floor was buckled and scorched…but the fire did not broach the overhang and extend to the top of the ship.

The balconies at the front of the burn section are melted away, then a section of balconies is not fully melted away, then farther aft another very intense section is melted away, including the only debris fall that seems to have reached down to Dolphin deck. Near this section, there is also significant smoke residue and scorching of Lido deck directly above this spot. Rather than conclude that the fire started midship and extended forward and aft, I now theorize that the fire started forward and burned back only. If the ship was in motion and the fire began in the 300-320 sections, it would be propelled aft by the wind of the ship’s motion. After the alarms were sounded, and firefighting efforts began, there would likely be some delay before reports were made to the bridge that the fire was not containable to the localized area, prompting a full ship alarm, and the process of stopping the ship’s motion and angling away from prevailing winds…a process that does take several minutes on a vessel of that size. During this time, the fire likely extended to the midship area. Then the ship stopped, and wind was no longer pushing the fire…the midship section was fully involved and the smoke began rising straight up (note the smoke pattern on Lido deck forward is at a 45 degree angle, indicating ship movement, whereas the middle section of smoke pattern on lido is predominantly straight up). This would also prompt the fire to burn hotter and longer in one spot, without moving on, and therefore would explain the significant melting of aluminum balconies, intrusion of cabin doors, and significant debris fall extending down to Dolphin deck.

Burn pattern beyond the midship seems to indicate that the fire had spread farther aft on the Aloha and Baja decks. I would postulate that this might be because of the funneling effect of the fire under the Lido overhang…it was forced aft more quickly as it could no longer extend up. The fire would hit the Lido overhang, and be forced in three directions – left, right, and out, looking for a way up. The fire forced left had nothing to burn, as the fire had already burned from this direction. The fire forced out licked over the Lido overhang, but didn’t find enough combustible material to spread. The fire forced to the right (aft) was the only one able to find fuel. With the ship’s forward motion stopped, the fire was not being directed aft as strongly, and the firefighting efforts appear to have been able to stop the fire.

[johnny cruise]

[quote name='zackiedawg'](part of my post to another thread - but on subject here)
If the rumors of the fire starting on the balcony of Baja 310 or Caribe 310 are true (and it is possible), then this would make perfect sense for the burn pattern. Baja 310, on Deck 11, is located just above the halfway point of the third full lifeboat from the bow, roughly two rooms under the Lido deck overhang, and two decks down from the Lido. This is at the very front of the burned section, and all burn is aft of that location, making the ship’s forward motion the primary influence on the direction of the fire’s spread. The fire does drop down to Caribe deck fairly extensively, which is feasible given the tiered deck layout and smaller balcony sizes. And the fire does extend all the way to the Lido overhang, where further upward growth appears to have been stemmed by the overhanging deck. Some of the Plexiglas panels on Lido show melt patterns, and some of the Lido overhang’s floor was buckled and scorched…but the fire did not broach the overhang and extend to the top of the ship.

The balconies at the front of the burn section are melted away, then a section of balconies is not fully melted away, then farther aft another very intense section is melted away, including the only debris fall that seems to have reached down to Dolphin deck. Near this section, there is also significant smoke residue and scorching of Lido deck directly above this spot. Rather than conclude that the fire started midship and extended forward and aft, I now theorize that the fire started forward and burned back only. If the ship was in motion and the fire began in the 300-320 sections, it would be propelled aft by the wind of the ship’s motion. After the alarms were sounded, and firefighting efforts began, there would likely be some delay before reports were made to the bridge that the fire was not containable to the localized area, prompting a full ship alarm, and the process of stopping the ship’s motion and angling away from prevailing winds…a process that does take several minutes on a vessel of that size. During this time, the fire likely extended to the midship area. Then the ship stopped, and wind was no longer pushing the fire…the midship section was fully involved and the smoke began rising straight up (note the smoke pattern on Lido deck forward is at a 45 degree angle, indicating ship movement, whereas the middle section of smoke pattern on lido is predominantly straight up). This would also prompt the fire to burn hotter and longer in one spot, without moving on, and therefore would explain the significant melting of aluminum balconies, intrusion of cabin doors, and significant debris fall extending down to Dolphin deck.

Burn pattern beyond the midship seems to indicate that the fire had spread farther aft on the Aloha and Baja decks. I would postulate that this might be because of the funneling effect of the fire under the Lido overhang…it was forced aft more quickly as it could no longer extend up. The fire would hit the Lido overhang, and be forced in three directions – left, right, and out, looking for a way up. The fire forced left had nothing to burn, as the fire had already burned from this direction. The fire forced out licked over the Lido overhang, but didn’t find enough combustible material to spread. The fire forced to the right (aft) was the only one able to find fuel. With the ship’s forward motion stopped, the fire was not being directed aft as strongly, and the firefighting efforts appear to have been able to stop the fire.[/quote]


What do you think started the fire??

JC

[spongerob]

[quote name='johnny cruise']What do you think started the fire??[/quote]That's easy - stupidity. We just don't know what form of stupidity or who needs to own up to it.

[johnny cruise]

[quote name='spongerob']That's easy - stupidity. We just don't know what form of stupidity or who needs to own up to it.[/quote]


Thats Correct. I'm thinking people drinking shots that are on fire. I did see this on the star in dec 05, it is one of the things we where not use to on a princess ship.

JC

[zackiedawg]

Well, again nothing more than postulation here. but I find the most likely scenario to be some form of smoldering ignition on a balcony. A cigarette or match is believable to me...either left on a balcony or dropped from a deck above. A slow smoldering ignition source landing on a low-resistance material such as clothing, towel, or robe would be capable of igniting into a flame. If the material contained any synthetics, such as nylon or polyester, it would burn hotter and longer - making it believable that plastics would be exposed to open flame with temperatures above their burn resistance (most deck materials would not be ignitable from only a smoldering source like a cigarette - which is why there can be hundreds of ships and millions of cruises without an incident like this happening - if this theory is correct, then it would be an unlucky aligning of a series of unlucky events causing a rare unlucky fire). If a plastic chair or table burned, it would flare up very hot and melt...making it possible to ignite the plexiglas kickplates, the plastic composit balcony dividers, and the fire-resistant rubber deck matting. Once these large synthetic materials begin to burn, the fire would become intensely hot and flare up very quickly.

Several eyewitnesses appear to have seen the fire when it was confined to a lower flame on one balcony, and noted that it spread rapidly thereafter...which is consistent with the escalation from lower-heat materials like cloths or fabrics to higher heat items like plastic compounds and rubbers.

Now the ignition source could have been something else...kids playing with flammables, drinking games gone awry, etc. However the presence of people during the earliest stages of the fire would be less likely unless they were committing arson - anyone else would make an effort to extinguish the fire or trigger alarms quickly. I can't imagine the fire being able to make the leap to the fire-resistant plastics for at least a few minutes of exposure to direct flame...so a person present would likely have had ample opportunity to extinguish the fire before it escalated.

I definately don't dismiss the possibility - but the smoldering unattended ignition transferring to an easily flammable material then stepping up to a more resistant flammable material seems a bit more likely in my head.

[zackiedawg]

[quote name='johnny cruise']Thats Correct. I'm thinking people drinking shots that are on fire. I did see this on the star in dec 05, it is one of the things we where not use to on a princess ship.[/quote]

The only problem with that theory is that it is very hard to get an alcohol fire to spread to another object. Alcohol burns off very quickly - even when confined to a glass where it can only burn off a top layer at a time, it will still burn away in less than a minute. If spilled or thrown, it would spread out thin, igniting all of the alcohol in mere seconds. Any material which the alcohol landed on would not only contain alcohol, but also water. Once the alcohol burns away, the material is still saturated with the water...making it fairly hard to ignite. Not impossible, but hard. And a flaming alcohol drink might still need a transition source like cloth or paper to burn long enough to ignite plastics on a deck which are fire-resistant.

Possibly with an entire bottle of high-alcohol content liquor (151-180 proof) I could believe an alcohol fire burning long enough to ignite a plastic chair...but a flaming shot or drink doesn't seem likely to me.

[johnny cruise]

There are people who would have just run away for fear of getting in trouble??

But what you say makes sence and its been nice to here your side. Now we wait for the offical cause.

JC