Private Driver out of Southampton

[gretnagirl]

Hello everyone,

 

My family (of 4) has booked a cruise out of Southampton for August of 2025.  We are planning to spend at least three days pre-cruise in Southampton and our top priority is to visit my great-uncle's grave in Upavon (he was killed in a plane crash during WWII and buried in Upavon's local cemetery).  We are hoping to hire a driver to take us not only to Upavon, but also to Salisbury for the cathedral and Stonehenge since it all appears to be in the same general area.  

 

The reason I'm asking here (and not simply relying on an internet search) is because we would need to customize an otherwise standard tour to include Upavon and I'm hoping other people have suggestions of companies that they've used and recommend.  

 

Looking forward to your responses!

 

Jessica

[John Bull]

Yes, Salisbury, Stonehenge and Upavon make a very sensible combination for you (Upavon is a village which isn't worth a visit for anyone without a specific reason).

 

Try https://westquaycars.com/ and https://www.aquacars.co.uk/ and https://gunwharf-executive-travel.co.uk/

They will all have experience of Salisbury & Stonehenge, but do take care to check out the location of the grave in (or near) Upavon.

 

The military cemetery in Upavon is particularly difficult to find https://www.tracesofwar.com/sights/4196/Where-is-Commonwealth-War-Graves-Upavon-Cemetery.htm 

But he might be buried in a local churchyard such as St Mary's in the village centre.

Or perhaps in the large military cemetery at Tidworth.

If you're unsure, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission https://www.cwgc.org/ hold records and is very helpful.

 

https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/stonehenge/

You are visiting in August, when Stonehenge will be very busy.

It restricts numbers to avoid overcrowding - you are strongly advised to pre-book your visit, for which you have to select an arrival window of 30 minutes (there's no limit on how long you can stay).

If you miss that arrival window you may have to wait until numbers fall, causing a delay& fouling up your day.

Liaise with your private tour operator for the most appropriate time window to select.

I suggest you book to visit after Salisbury (allow 60 - 90 minutes there) - if you are delayed you can shorten that visit or continue past Salisbury & visit Salisbury on your way back. Salisbury to Stonehenge takes about 30 minutes.

 

JB 🙂

 

 

 

[LeeW]

John, you usually advise taking the train to Salisbury with HOHO/Stonehenge tour (worked great for us).  Don't remember seeing any, but is there a car rental at or near the Salisbury train station?  These folks could also rent a car for a pretty low price in Southampton.  I'm not fond of the idea of driving in the UK but our son has done it multiple times.

 

Looks like Thrifty and Enterprise are walkable from the train station, if they don't offer dropoffs there.

[gretnagirl]

On 6/10/2024 at 6:53 AM, John Bull said:

Yes, Salisbury, Stonehenge and Upavon make a very sensible combination for you (Upavon is a village which isn't worth a visit for anyone without a specific reason).

 

Try https://westquaycars.com/ and https://www.aquacars.co.uk/ and https://gunwharf-executive-travel.co.uk/

They will all have experience of Salisbury & Stonehenge, but do take care to check out the location of the grave in (or near) Upavon.

 

The military cemetery in Upavon is particularly difficult to find https://www.tracesofwar.com/sights/4196/Where-is-Commonwealth-War-Graves-Upavon-Cemetery.htm 

But he might be buried in a local churchyard such as St Mary's in the village centre.

Or perhaps in the large military cemetery at Tidworth.

If you're unsure, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission https://www.cwgc.org/ hold records and is very helpful.

 

https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/stonehenge/

You are visiting in August, when Stonehenge will be very busy.

It restricts numbers to avoid overcrowding - you are strongly advised to pre-book your visit, for which you have to select an arrival window of 30 minutes (there's no limit on how long you can stay).

If you miss that arrival window you may have to wait until numbers fall, causing a delay& fouling up your day.

Liaise with your private tour operator for the most appropriate time window to select.

I suggest you book to visit after Salisbury (allow 60 - 90 minutes there) - if you are delayed you can shorten that visit or continue past Salisbury & visit Salisbury on your way back. Salisbury to Stonehenge takes about 30 minutes.

 

JB 🙂

 

 

 

Thanks for that detailed response!  We will certainly check out the drivers you mentioned.

 

Luckily for us, Veterans Affairs Canada also has pretty good records of soldiers, and there's actually an entire page filled with pictures, articles, and information about Uncle Ivan, including the exact location of his grave (row and number, if you can believe it) in the "Upavon Cemetery."  This is also corroborated by the Commonwealth website you listed.  I'm hopeful that with those details, we'll be able to find him.  As far as we know, he is not buried in a military cemetery, but in the local church graveyard.  I guess we'll find out for sure when we get there.

[John Bull]

Three potential places (there may be others near Upavon) 

 

- the village church, St Mary the Virgin (in The Gardens, off High St.)

I believe that like many village churches it shares a vicar with other churches- here's a contact 

https://www.valeofpewsey.org/contact-us/

 

- Upavon Baptist Chapel, Chapel Lane. (this is the one which the War Graves Commission calls "Upavon cemetery"

Two services per month, couldn't find a contact

 

- the map on the webpage https://www.tracesofwar.com/sights/4196/Where-is-Commonwealth-War-Graves-Upavon-Cemetery.htm shows "Upavon cemetery" beyond the top of Chapel Lane in a field off the left fork of Jarvis Street. There's something there on Googlemaps but the resolution is poor, no streetview, and no photos which help figuring the location.

 

(The last two might be confusion about one location, but they're only a couple of hundred yards apart). 

 

Upavon is a typical Wiltshire village, close-knit and with families long-established in the village. If you're struggling, try asking the village shop or pub ("The Ship at Avon"), both in High Street near the village church.

 

@LeeW mentioned renting a car in Salisbury. Inexpensive half-hourly train service from Southampton Central station, Enterprise & Thrifty both have depots a ten-minute walk from Salisbury station.

Yes, would be much cheaper than a car & driver from Southampton, but depends how well you think you'd cope with driving & navigation.  

 

JB 🙂

[Harters]

On 6/10/2024 at 12:53 PM, John Bull said:

the Commonwealth War Graves Commission https://www.cwgc.org/ hold records and is very helpful.

If you enter the ancestors name into the CWGC website, it will bring up his page which will tell you exactly which cemetery he is buried in (along with other info, such as any inscription the family paid for to have added to his headstone). It will link to the cemetery page which will give full details about location, including map and GPS co-ordinates. 

 

I'm a founder member of a voluntary group which works with CWGC to identify casualties who were, for whatever reason, overlooked for official commemoration. One of our members did all the work, as a volunteer,  to establish the GPS co-ordinates for all the UK and European cemeteries. An amazing and extensive piece of work - fortunately completed not long before he died. 

Edited June 12 by Harters

[gretnagirl]

7 hours ago, Harters said:

If you enter the ancestors name into the CWGC website, it will bring up his page which will tell you exactly which cemetery he is buried in (along with other info, such as any inscription the family paid for to have added to his headstone). It will link to the cemetery page which will give full details about location, including map and GPS co-ordinates. 

 

I'm a founder member of a voluntary group which works with CWGC to identify casualties who were, for whatever reason, overlooked for official commemoration. One of our members did all the work, as a volunteer,  to establish the GPS co-ordinates for all the UK and European cemeteries. An amazing and extensive piece of work - fortunately completed not long before he died. 

Thank you, I've found him on that website and you're right, GPS coordinates are there.  Luckily for us, my dad is a GPS fanatic, so I'm sure we'll be able to find him.  We're not really sure why he wasn't buried in the military cemetery; could be because his plane went down upon returning from a mission and not during a mission, but that's just a guess.  

 

I've been impressed with the records that have been kept, both on the Canadian and British sides, about soldiers in general but my great-uncle in particular.  Being able to pay our respects is incredibly important to my mom, so we very much appreciate the work of people such as yourself who have helped to make this possible for us, as well as the people who routinely care for his grave as we the family are unable to.

[Cotswold Eagle]

I believe the coordinates given by the CWGC for Upavon Cemetery, are the entrance to the large plot at the top of Chapel Lane and that this is a typical additional cemetery on the edge of a village, bought for use when the churchyard, often in the centre of the village as at Upavon, reached capacity. I have circled the obvious cemetery there, the CWGC waypoint is in green, just below and to the right. As Harters says, the CWGC coordinates are very highly likely to be accurate. 

I don’t think it is specifically a military cemetery, but the Central Flying School was established at Upavon before the first war, so sadly there will be a much higher number of military graves there than one would expect in a village of that size. Likely to be military plots, hence the location given in terms of row and number. I am familiar with a similar arrangement across the road from what used to be RAF Moreton-in -Marsh. 
 

I am confident you will find the grave of your great-uncle quite easily once there, and please pay our respects as well. 
 

Edited June 13 by Cotswold Eagle

[Harters]

8 hours ago, gretnagirl said:

We're not really sure why he wasn't buried in the military cemetery

The big military cemeteries in the UK tend to be near military hospitals but I think Cotswold Eagle's suggestion is right. Looking at the CWGC website page for Upavon, I see there are 99 military burials there (of which 22 are unidentified). There's a photo which shows burials laid out in rows, all with the standard CWGC gravestone. Several are from World War 1 (which is my period of study), including one woman, almost certainly connected with the Flying School that Cotswold mentions. It's a sort of mini military cemetery.

 

 

[John Bull]

The place circled on @Cotswold Eagle's map is the third of the options in my post. 

If I knew how to locate places by coordinates and how to run a marker pen over googlemaps I'd have done the same - but I'm a dinosaur who's still struggling to join the 21st Century and has to rely on technologically more-advanced eagles.🙄

 

Googlemaps won't zoom sufficiently to show how to get into the place, but there's a small "cemetery" sign for a footpath off the top of Chapel Lane just a yard or two past Fairfield.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/FUneURFoxRU1Lq4E7

 

JB 🙂

 

 

[Harters]

4 hours ago, John Bull said:

sufficiently to show how to get into the place, but there's a small "cemetery" sign

With that many burials, there's also likely to be an official CWGC sign pointing the way.

 

Just curious here, Jessica (I'm something of a CWGC geek, as you might have gathered). I see there's only one WW2 burial there who has a connection with Canada - Cecil Smith. Is that your rellie, or was he serving with British forces? 

Edited June 13 by Harters

[Harters]

Ignore the comment about only one WW2 Canadian burial. The CWGC download was playing up. 

 

I now see there are seven with a Canadian connection, including one from Manitoba. 

Edited June 13 by Harters

[gretnagirl]

8 hours ago, Harters said:

Ignore the comment about only one WW2 Canadian burial. The CWGC download was playing up. 

 

I now see there are seven with a Canadian connection, including one from Manitoba. 

My great-uncle was Ivan Evans, from Victoria Harbour, Ontario (both of my parents hail from Ontario).  He had recently been presented to the King and Queen in recognition of his distinguished action in important raids with the RAF and was returning from his final mission before heading home on leave when his plane crashed due to low cloud cover near Upavon.  Apparently there's a large hill that numerous planes crashed into which could be one reason why there's a large number of soldiers buried there.  

 

Our Canadian VA website has provided us with some information (https://www.veterans.gc.ca/en/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/2710471), and my brother has done some digging into Uncle Ivan's service.  His is a name I grew up hearing much about even though he died 15 years before my mom was born; I think he and my grandmother were quite close.  My mom said my grandparents would have visited his grave in the 40s or 50s, so it's past time that the family go to see him.  

[John Bull]

4 hours ago, gretnagirl said:

 

 

Our Canadian VA website has provided us with some information (https://www.veterans.gc.ca/en/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/2710471),  

 

 

Hmmm - that perhaps adds to the confusion..............

It mentions UPAVON CHURCH CEMETERY

But the War Graves cemetery that we all think is probably the one is nowhere near a church.

That would seem to suggest the churchyard of St Mary the Virgin in the village centre but there seem to be few graves there, and like most UK church graveyards they're not laid in neat rows

 

But the two places are only 1/4 mile apart.

 

JB 🙂

[Harters]

I've done some more digging this morning and think I can see what's what.

 

As far as I can tell, from the CWGC website, is that the only war grave burials are at Upavon Cemetery. This is the place listed on Ivan's CWGC page and is the official name for the cemetery. I think a confusion has arisen with the Canadian VA info in that, at some point in the past (probably post First World War), the CWGC seems to have called it "Upavon Churchyard Extension). You often see battlefield cemeteries in Belgium & France having "Extension" in their name - usually a plot of land near to the village church. I have a great uncle, Benjamin Hartley, killed in 1916, buried in once such. It's known he's in nthe cemetery somewhere but the actual location of his grave has been lost, so he's commemorated on a special memorial. 

 

My digging finds that someone called Carl (a relative of yours?) has uploaded photos of Ivan to the Find a Grave website. And that my old pals from the War Graves Photographic Project have a photo of his grave.

 

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/39064178/ivan-thomas_hugh-evans

 

https://www.twgpp.org/photograph/view/3968125

 

I'm  sure you'll find visiting a moving experience. I know I did when I visited Benjamin's burial place and the grave of my maternal great uncle, killed in 1918 liberating a village in Belgium. 

 

NOT FORGOTTEN

 

 

 

Edited June 14 by Harters

[Harters]

All five of Ivan's comrades are buried at Upavon. Four of them, Clayton Brown, James Ferguson, John Holmes and Cecil Smith are buried in graves adjacent to Ivan. Patrick Murphy is buried in Row F.