Is Holland America Line falling behind?

[Halguy]

12 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

In recent years, my HAL cruises have been winter escapes in the Caribbean. Yes, port intensive, and I do go ashore for part of the day. I don't expect a lot of daytime activities, but I'm onboard every evening, and some variety in the entertainment would be appreciated. I'm not a fan of the loud Music Walk, and on some ships that's about all I have found now that they've dumped classical music. I hear it's getting better, but this January could be my last HAL winter cruise if I'm as bored as I was last year.

My story is basically the same as yours. We live up north and look to go to Florida for at least 8 weeks. Staying at a hotel or going on a cruise probably works out to be fairly close in overall cost. We generally book about 3 cruises. HAL has become somewhat boring with entertainment that is repetitive and poor quality. Main Stage performances are probably the worst of all major cruise lines. Service remains excellent as well as food quality. Since we are 5 Star the perks bring us back. We get off the ship in most ports with the exception of Jamaica and maybe one or two other. Nothing to see in the Caribbean, especially if you have been there dozens of times before. It’s all about the Caribbean weather. The HAL entertainment issues has persisted for many, many years. This year booked 2 of our 3 cruises on HAL. We have a nice time, however, we’ve been going to the movies by the pool for many evenings, would have hoped for a more exciting way to spend our evenings abroad a cruise ship.

[BermudaBound2014]

On 10/23/2024 at 3:04 PM, ldtr1 said:

 

Lets see  HAL may have 5 ships there during the winter,  so it is basically a place for the ships during the winter.  As you say 5 of 11.

 

 

Looks like I miscounted. According to this article, HAL is putting 7 ships in the Caribbean; including all three pinnacle ships.

 

I still maintain that you were incorrect when you stated that the Caribbean is "just a place to put a couole of ships during the winter.." 

 

While I agree that HAL is less dependent on the Caribbean than some of the other mainstream lines, putting 7 of 11 ships (64%) of it's ships in the caribbean is hardly just a 'couple ships' (even putting just 5 of 11 is a significant commitment). 

 

https://lifewellcruised.com/holland-america-brings-new-caribbean-experiences-and-regional-flavors-to-7-ships-2024-25/

 

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en/us/news/2024/April/news-040224-25-26-Caribbean

 

 

 

 

As a side note, it looks like NCL and Celebrity are both becoming less dependent on the caribbean in the summertime. While HAL has zero ships sailing Caribbean next summer, NCL has only 2 and Celebrity has just one. Diversity abounds.

 

As mentioned, what HAL is doing different than the other mainstream lines is offering slightly longer unique itineraries (9+ days). This should help HAL in maintaining a bit of a niche in the very competitive Caribbean market, but make no mistake, HAL is investing in Caribbean sailings. This makes sense to me given the data coming from cruise market watch.

 

 

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by BermudaBound2014

[BermudaBound2014]

On 10/23/2024 at 3:52 PM, ldtr1 said:

The best source for that is cruise market watch for passengers, line revenue, etc With sec fililings as a way to validate the totals.

 

Satista also gives some.

 

The rest you have to pull out in drips and drabs from articles, analyst calls, clia and other trade orgnizations and news articles.

 

Often requires taking different pieces and assemble them to get an overall picture.

 

Lots of ways to combine and check. One example is capacity efficiency using revenue from market watch and fleet size ftom sec filing.

 

Another is passengers per fleet capacity such as the look at Costa above.

 

Will have to dig up  percentage business in Caribbean by brand. That used to be in a florida trade publication each year but have not looked for it lately.

 

That's what I thought ;-).

 

Thanks for confirming.

[ldtr1]

Just now, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Looks like I miscounted. According to this article, HAL is putting 7 ships in the Caribbean; including all three pinnacle ships.

 

I still maintain that you were incorrect when you stated that the Caribbean is "just a place to put a couole of ships during the winter.." 

 

While I agree that HAL is less dependent on the Caribbean than some of the other mainstream lines, putting 7 of 11 ships (64%) of it's ships in the caribbean is hardly just a 'couple ships' (even putting just 5 of 11 is a significant commitment). 

 

https://lifewellcruised.com/holland-america-brings-new-caribbean-experiences-and-regional-flavors-to-7-ships-2024-25/

 

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en/us/news/2024/April/news-040224-25-26-Caribbean

 

 

 

 

As a side note, it looks like NCL and Celebrity are both becoming less dependent on the caribbean in the summertime. While HAL has zero ships sailing Caribbean next summer, NCL has only 2 and Celebrity has just one. Diversity abounds.

 

As mentioned, what HAL is doing different than the other mainstream lines is offering slightly longer unique itineraries (9+ days). This should help HAL in maintaining a bit of a niche in the very competitive Caribbean market, but make no mistake, HAL is investing in Caribbean sailings. This makes sense to me given the data coming from cruise market watch.

 

 

 

 

They have to put them somewhere in the winter. Still not a main focus. They get a little revenue, pays some bills while waiting for their main focus. They have to spend the winter in the other lines sandbox, still not their main focus or niche. You use your terminology i will use mine. To be it is still a place to put a couple of ships during the winter.

[ldtr1]

Just now, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Looks like I miscounted. According to this article, HAL is putting 7 ships in the Caribbean; including all three pinnacle ships.

 

I still maintain that you were incorrect when you stated that the Caribbean is "just a place to put a couole of ships during the winter.." 

 

While I agree that HAL is less dependent on the Caribbean than some of the other mainstream lines, putting 7 of 11 ships (64%) of it's ships in the caribbean is hardly just a 'couple ships' (even putting just 5 of 11 is a significant commitment). 

 

https://lifewellcruised.com/holland-america-brings-new-caribbean-experiences-and-regional-flavors-to-7-ships-2024-25/

 

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en/us/news/2024/April/news-040224-25-26-Caribbean

 

 

 

 

As a side note, it looks like NCL and Celebrity are both becoming less dependent on the caribbean in the summertime. While HAL has zero ships sailing Caribbean next summer, NCL has only 2 and Celebrity has just one. Diversity abounds.

 

As mentioned, what HAL is doing different than the other mainstream lines is offering slightly longer unique itineraries (9+ days). This should help HAL in maintaining a bit of a niche in the very competitive Caribbean market, but make no mistake, HAL is investing in Caribbean sailings. This makes sense to me given the data coming from cruise market watch.

 

 

 

 

You did not indicate what percentage of their resources are their in the winter. Do not forget Royal.

[Rubyfisch]

4 hours ago, visagrunt said:

As for the soft product, we'll have to see how much the people who are buying the cruises respond to re-tooling the dining, entertainment and enrichment options.  Here in our CruiseCritic bias-confirmation bubble we can opine that the loss of Lincoln Center (sic) Stage and the "Indulge" (sic) upcharges are the death knell of the line.  But what are the 90% of passengers who don't come here to kvetch saying?  I'm still seeing heavily sold cruises in 2026 suggesting that Seattle might have a better handle on their analytics than we do.

 

I think this is a tremendously important point. I think Holland is trying to toe a line where they keep enough of their long time customers happy while also attracting their next generation of customers who are coming into a higher level of buying power. I think I am in a lot ways their new target demographic (or one of them at least). I think they are trying (and mostly succeeding) if figuring out that niche. I personally don't care about Lincoln Center, but can understand why others do. I truly couldn't care less about charges for lobster or certain steaks, because I wouldn't order them regardless. But I do love the relaxed atmosphere, the excellent service, the good and interesting food, etc.

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Looks like I miscounted. According to this article, HAL is putting 7 ships in the Caribbean; including all three pinnacle ships.

 

I still maintain that you were incorrect when you stated that the Caribbean is "just a place to put a couole of ships during the winter.." 

 

While I agree that HAL is less dependent on the Caribbean than some of the other mainstream lines, putting 7 of 11 ships (64%) of it's ships in the caribbean is hardly just a 'couple ships' (even putting just 5 of 11 is a significant commitment). 

 

 

Quite so. Its typical of the cherry picking and misinformation on this forum.

 

Fact is that there's just too much capacity, and will get worse. Every cruise line has to commit multiple ships into the Caribbean, Mediterranean and Alaska. Very few will earn high premiums with winter cruises into the Arctic etc. Most cruise lines will have a single RTW itinerary. The adventure expedition market is limited at the current prices.

[ldtr1]

Just now, HappyInVan said:

 

Quite so. Its typical of the cherry picking and misinformation on this forum.

 

Fact is that there's just too much capacity, and will get worse. Every cruise line has to commit multiple ships into the Caribbean, Mediterranean and Alaska. Very few will earn high premiums with winter cruises into the Arctic etc. Most cruise lines will have a single RTW itinerary. The adventure expedition market is limited at the current prices.

If anyone were to know about cherry picking it would be you.

[ldtr1]

in 2024 there are going to be 154 ships in the Caribbean during the winter season.

 

When i get home i will do a break down on what percentage of which brands capacity will be there.

 

I have a pivot table where i can itineraries from TA web sites and slice and dice by region, brand, home port and then combine with ship capacity.

 

The florida and caribbean cruise organization used to publish a report, but it appears that they stopped in 2017. 

 

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Caribbean-cruising-gears-up-for-big-year

Edited 3 minutes ago by ldtr1