AVOID Park West Galleries Auction at Sea

[dommer573]

I've got 6 or 8 peices over the years, never spending more than $130. for any. All of then are still on my walls and I have no idea what there worth, but I like them, so to me it was worth it. ;)

[Mack2]

It appears it is someone who is keeping everyone informed of what is happening with a Park West purchase. Does not look like dead horse beating to me.

 

This thread (and many like it) originally appeared on CC back in 2006.

 

Prior to this latest resurrection, the last more recent post occurred Jan 10th, 2009

 

Prior to THAT, the last post (page 6) was... get this... Jan 12th, 2007.

 

Are you telling me that someone randomly found this thread above all others.... after a year of being idle on the board.... don't you think that is amazing?

[lcguy]

This thread (and many like it) originally appeared on CC back in 2006.

 

Prior to this latest resurrection, the last more recent post occurred Jan 10th, 2009

 

Prior to THAT, the last post (page 6) was... get this... Jan 12th, 2007.

 

Are you telling me that someone randomly found this thread above all others.... after a year of being idle on the board.... don't you think that is amazing?

I think some horses deserve to be resurrected and slapped around a little bit. :D Seriously, I agree with Puff... just keeping all informed and very interesting info too. I actually went to the auction on Voyager last week. ROFLMAO. What a bunch of crap. Seriously, crap. I loved how they truly work people and then coddle them to prevent buyer's remorse. As PT Barnum once said.... :eek:

[Puffinater]

Are you telling me that someone randomly found this thread above all others.... after a year of being idle on the board.... don't you think that is amazing?

 

Just to clarify..I will agree it is an old thread and was dug up from who knows where but the poster was providing some updated and in my opinion intersting/valuable info. Would a new thread have been in order? Probably. Info is usually a good thing but the method of delivery can easily be debated.

 

Thanks lcguy and I agree some old horses need a good slapping around. You never know what may fall out.

[SASSYIN2]

Some of these posts are old, but we did spend about $600.00 on a piece of Silver Oak wine art in Dec. on the Seranade. Have not received and will be on the phone Monday with them. Took pictures so we know what we were to receive. Since we charged to our room, and it is on our RC credit card, I guess I will start with RC and then the Visa company.

[reeran]

I've never attended an Art Auction onboard a cruise ship; nevertheless I love the fact that they have them --- it's because of Art Auctions & Casinos that the price of my cruise remains low. J

 

Good point!!!

[ezi-amy]

Some of these posts are old, but we did spend about $600.00 on a piece of Silver Oak wine art in Dec. on the Seranade. Have not received and will be on the phone Monday with them. Took pictures so we know what we were to receive. Since we charged to our room, and it is on our RC credit card, I guess I will start with RC and then the Visa company.

 

 

Hi Marla,

I hope that you didn't pay for that portion of your credit card bill.

We didn't and that is how we were able to easily recoup our credit amount ($350) and whne they deviled it I just refused it since I never paid for it and received the credit back on my visa.

 

If you really like it and looking forward to receiving it, keep on bugging them.

according to their website http://www.parkwestgallery.com/tour/faqs.aspx it take 8 to 10 weeks for them to deliver it.

Good luck.

 

** This thread is like a soap opera, after a character dies a few years later they comeback as their evil cousin or brother.

[Mack2]

 

** This thread is like a soap opera, after a character dies a few years later they comeback as their evil cousin or brother.

 

YOU resurrected it...

Post #116 was posted Jan 12th, 2007.

 

How'd you FIND this thread?

[andrzej5914]

I believe I'm just repeating myself, but I don't get the point of this thread. We're all adults, and if I chose to spend some money with Park West, Diamond International, del Sol, etc., it's my decision, it's my money.

 

I have bought few pieces from Park West in the early 2000s and they still make me happy today, hanging on the walls. I never thought this would be an investment, I just liked the prints.

 

If some happen to fall for the "investment" hype, so be it.

 

I don't like Chryslers and will probably never buy one, but I don't go around telling others that they should listen to me and skip Chrysler dealership when they're looking for a new vehicle.

 

Again, we're all adults and whatever rocks your boat, as long as it's not somebody else's money, then spend it anyway you want to.

[ezi-amy]

I found this thread through user CP and then all threads subscribed.

 

andrzej5914,

The purpose of this thread is not to tell people what to do or what to buy.

I too bought about 20 limited edition prints from cruise ships and from parkwest sea and land auctions.

The purpose of this thread is to tell people that they should be careful and examine their art before and after buying art form auctions at seas or from galleries.

Collectors should do their homework (by learning about the different medias and the difference between Original one of a kind, limited edition, lithograph, serigraph, signed in plate etc... and the most important thing is to always always buy what you like.

 

The main point has nothing to do with investment, it has to do with getting what you paid for. You don't want to pay for a Mercedes and get a Kia. You don't want to buy a diamond from Diamond International and get a piece of glass, they both look the same and no one will look at it close enough to see that it is a fake. Its about getting what you paid for.

 

Park west is known to mislead you during the auction and even when you buy a regular edition of the print, they send you and AP artist proof or even a PP printer proof which have a much lower value than the one that you bought. Its like ordering a dell computer with all the bells and wistles and when you recieve it (the same model number) it doesn't have the amount of space on the hard drive or ram or the beller battery that you paid for. Getting the same image that you bought doesn't mean that you got the one you paid for, an AP, PP or HC could have little defects from the regular edition that you won't notice. I know that from personal experience.

 

Years ago when parkwest started you could get a good value for your art, less than a gallery price for the same piece. Today they are too big and the idea is to get what you paid for.

 

By all means do not stop buying art, its a fantastic thing to own and enjoy for many years. I will keep on collecting art but I will find a different places to buy them from. There are may great websites where you can buy art and maybe even discover a new artist.

[andrzej5914]

I agree, but my point is this. Post your observations once and then let it go. Before I get a high price hotel room, a 5* restaurant reservation, I do my research. Same with art. I like to think that most will do the same and the few that get caught up in the hype of PW, art as investment, etc. then so be it. That's part of life.

 

Remember when the Japanese real estate was sky high and anybody that owned 1' sq.ft in Tokyo could get as much credit as they wanted. The Japanese started to buy art, and I mean real art, million$ and up to 100 million$ per piece. They thought that it was a good investment and besides they thought they were back to one of the top positions in the world by doing that. Well, their real estate market crashed, they needed to sell their art collections just to pay the bills and that's when they found out that they were taken for a ride byh the auction houses. Their art collections had a return of about 50% at best.

 

I said it earlier, and I will say it again. Buy art because you like it, not as some kind of an investement vehicle. If it does happen to appreciate in value, that much better, but don't expect it. PW is selling a product. Perhaps some of their business practices are not kosher, but WE ARE ALL ADULTS.

 

Buyers beware.... is a simple concept.;)

[Rancher Dave]

I saw that myself on a cruise several years ago. They held it in the Viking Crown lounge. There were very few people who showed up for it.

The bar was in the middle, and the bidders were seated on either side of it. Neither side could see each other from their seats. My husband and I were seated behind the few bidders on our side of the bar. They were really there to get the free drinks and did not participate at all.

A picture went up for bidding and a woman on the other side of the bar from us bid. The auctioneer looked at our side and announced that a higher bid had come from someone. He then proceeded to keep doing this. There was NO ONE BIDDING ON OUR SIDE. The poor lady on the other side of the bar was actually bidding against herself and never knew it. Of course she finally won the picture. She should have had it for the first bid. I could not believe what I saw happen.

I vowed never to get involved in that scam after seeing that happen.

 

I'd be highly pissed if they used my favorite bar for such an activity....Crown Lounge if for watching the world float by not an auction...

 

Shocked that they had the lady bidding against herself...seems very unethical.:eek:

[dougp26364]

I found this thread through user CP and then all threads subscribed.

 

andrzej5914,

The purpose of this thread is not to tell people what to do or what to buy.

I too bought about 20 limited edition prints from cruise ships and from parkwest sea and land auctions.

The purpose of this thread is to tell people that they should be careful and examine their art before and after buying art form auctions at seas or from galleries.

Collectors should do their homework (by learning about the different medias and the difference between Original one of a kind, limited edition, lithograph, serigraph, signed in plate etc... and the most important thing is to always always buy what you like.

 

The main point has nothing to do with investment, it has to do with getting what you paid for. You don't want to pay for a Mercedes and get a Kia. You don't want to buy a diamond from Diamond International and get a piece of glass, they both look the same and no one will look at it close enough to see that it is a fake. Its about getting what you paid for.

 

Park west is known to mislead you during the auction and even when you buy a regular edition of the print, they send you and AP artist proof or even a PP printer proof which have a much lower value than the one that you bought. Its like ordering a dell computer with all the bells and wistles and when you recieve it (the same model number) it doesn't have the amount of space on the hard drive or ram or the beller battery that you paid for. Getting the same image that you bought doesn't mean that you got the one you paid for, an AP, PP or HC could have little defects from the regular edition that you won't notice. I know that from personal experience.

 

Years ago when parkwest started you could get a good value for your art, less than a gallery price for the same piece. Today they are too big and the idea is to get what you paid for.

 

By all means do not stop buying art, its a fantastic thing to own and enjoy for many years. I will keep on collecting art but I will find a different places to buy them from. There are may great websites where you can buy art and maybe even discover a new artist.

 

While I may appreciate that you hold Park West in disdain, I think constanly harping on it for years causes this thread to lose it's objectivity.

 

If you bought their "investment" hype, learn from it and move on. We should all be big girls and boys and should be capable of making our own decisions.

 

Now if someone posts about Park West or Auctions at Sea, then by all means post your feelings about this company. I'm just not sure we all need to rehash the same dead thread every year. If there was community interest in this thread, it would remain alive. For now the interest isn't so much on Park West as in the continual reserection of a DEAD thread. IOW, time to let it go.

 

For instance, I'll post my opinion on threads asking about how dressed up one needs to get to eat dinner in the MDR. While I hold a strong opinion on it, I don't go around bringing up old threads to keep the fight alive nor do I start a new thread just to start the discussion all over again. Only if someone asks yet again what they should wear will I post my opinion as well as what I've observed first hand in the MDR. Otherwise I've long since let it go and won't rehash an old thread or start a new one on the subject.

[Turk]

While I may appreciate that you hold Park West in disdain, I think constanly harping on it for years causes this thread to lose it's objectivity.

 

If you bought their "investment" hype, learn from it and move on. We should all be big girls and boys and should be capable of making our own decisions.

 

Now if someone posts about Park West or Auctions at Sea, then by all means post your feelings about this company. I'm just not sure we all need to rehash the same dead thread every year. If there was community interest in this thread, it would remain alive. For now the interest isn't so much on Park West as in the continual reserection of a DEAD thread. IOW, time to let it go.

 

For instance, I'll post my opinion on threads asking about how dressed up one needs to get to eat dinner in the MDR. While I hold a strong opinion on it, I don't go around bringing up old threads to keep the fight alive nor do I start a new thread just to start the discussion all over again. Only if someone asks yet again what they should wear will I post my opinion as well as what I've observed first hand in the MDR. Otherwise I've long since let it go and won't rehash an old thread or start a new one on the subject.

 

I disagree entirely. The issue about Park West has recently come to a crossroads and is as much in the news as ever. Those following the news on this know that the big "trial" is coming up this month or next and that not only is Park West in the thick of litigation alleging millions in art fraud, but that Royal Caribbean has been brought back in it by the judge for their part in accepting millions in payments from Park West and their "partnership" with Park West in continuing the alleged fraud! This may be an old thread, but it provides a bit of history of those following and commenting on this issue.

 

I have to admit I was one who learned a costly lesson by falling for Park West tactics is auctioning off "one of a kind" art, but I did not learn this until recently. My mistake cost me $2400. Many many thousands of cruise passengers have been taken to the cleaners over "bad" art and I am thinking many are cruisers here on this site whether they choose to admit it or not. It is important to this site and to those who support it to be informed about a potential problem on the "high seas" and that many cruise lines condone and even participate in auctions and their profits making one think that the actions are "safe" and backed by the cruise lines. They are not! This is precisely why RCC has been brought back into the litigation and is now side by side Park West in defending themselves. Four lawsuits in California were settled last month with Park West losing and having to refund the moneys spent. The big lawsuits are next in Michigan and these include RCC. The Days' are suing for over $600,000 and 6 others are in the wings with hundreds of thousands more. One couple may be preparing a lawsuit for $750,000 in art. These all have excellent chances of proving fraud not only against Park West and it's officers, but also RCC.

 

People need to know the issues especially if they wander into a Park West auction on board a cruise ship. They need to know that both Park West and RCC are operating together and that because RCC seems to lend a reputable veil over the auctions that some may think they are "safe" and offer a wonderful opportunity.

 

That's why this thread, although old, is very important to keep alive and current.

 

Sorry for the soapbox, but I hate to see people buying "inside" rooms with hard earned money from their savings, buying $15,000.00 worth of Dali's with the promise they are worth 60% more off the ship. I know of a family who is losing their house, while they try to sell $100,000 worth of bad art from Park West, with no takers. That is just plain sad.

[ezi-amy]

Obviously this thread is not dead and it holds a lot of interest.

 

If parkwest was on one or two ships it wouldn't have mattered that much But parkwest is on almost every ship and every cruise line (Disney kicked them off).

 

People need to know what is going on with parkwest, these are facts and they are being sued.

 

Parkwest is also lying on their own website http://www.parkwestgallery.com/tour/faqs.aspx by saying that in 40 years they never sold a work of art that is not authentic. What they don't tell you is that they send you a cheaper version of what they promised during the auction, Its the same image but a much much less valuable version of it, a AP, PP HC etc... or the best one is one how many times they sold signed in plates as original works of art.... signed in plated are nothing more than posters and not worth the $35 that it cost you for them to ship it. Signed in plate has nothing to do with the artist (the artist did the original image), they can print as many as they want and when they run out of them they print more. THEY ARE STILL DOING IT.

 

Parkwest is selling original prints by Rembrandt for $17,000 each. What they don't tell you is that these prints were done years after the artist died. These prints are from the original plate and a fair market value is $200. Yes an original one of a kind Rembrandt sell for million of dollars but you can still get a limited edition authentic print done by Rembrandt for $17,000.

 

I can go on and on... not harping just informing.

People should always be able to talk about their experiences whether they are positive or negative.

 

As an artist it kills me that people get ripped off by anyone, its terrible for all the artists (including parkwest artists).

[reeran]

But if they eliminate the art auction....where will I get my fix of cheap Champagne??????????????????????:eek:;)

(Or should I say carbonated grape, water, alcohol, substance??????)

[galavant3]

I go back and forth on this issue. Our experience has been positive but then we have only attended a handful of art auctions (rainy sea days) and would never consider "investing" in art on a cruise ship.

 

As with anything else you have to know what you are looking for. We purchased a signed Todd White print, including frame, for $90, on a cruise. I would do it again without hesitation. It is my husband's favorite piece of art and it hangs in his office. The cost to frame would have exceeded $90. This was on a Princess cruise and we have looked for Todd White prints on every RCCL cruise since with no luck!

 

We also received three free prints (one was a Tarkay, one was a Le Kinff and can't remember the other - my daughter took it) for attending on different cruises. We had them framed and really enjoy them. We did have the cost of framing when we returned but the prints themselves were free. One of the prints was extra large, the other two were medium. More recently, our "free" prints have been quite small, in the 8x10 range.

 

I agree that the art auctions are not the place to purchase investment art. I also agree that the people watching is unbeatable. Since the auctions seem to be in the afternoon, you will likely miss out on an enjoyable day at sea!

[andrzej5914]

When Whole Foods opened a store just blocks away from our condo, we were elated. The excitement went away very quickly when we found the same fruits and veggies (by labels) that we bought at Publix, only at twice the price. Does that mean they are ripping off people? We could debate that all day long, but at the end, it comes down under "buyer beware". We still shop there on occasion but I'm not buying into their "natural, organic foods" hype any more. It's their business plan and many people buy into it, and they are allowed to operate.

 

Tell me, what's the difference?

[Turk]

I go back and forth on this issue. Our experience has been positive but then we have only attended a handful of art auctions (rainy sea days) and would never consider "investing" in art on a cruise ship.

 

As with anything else you have to know what you are looking for. We purchased a signed Todd White print, including frame, for $90, on a cruise. I would do it again without hesitation. It is my husband's favorite piece of art and it hangs in his office. The cost to frame would have exceeded $90. This was on a Princess cruise and we have looked for Todd White prints on every RCCL cruise since with no luck!

 

Just remember, if you like the work of "art" you received, and had them (PW) frame it, have it redone. They do not use acid free paper nor the proper tape that would protect the piece. We took ours apart and found scotch tape and plain paper despite what they will tell you. They refunded the cost of the framing ($495). Don't get me started with this company!

 

Please, just stay away.

[galavant3]

Just remember, if you like the work of "art" you received, and had them (PW) frame it, have it redone. They do not use acid free paper nor the proper tape that would protect the piece. We took ours apart and found scotch tape and plain paper despite what they will tell you. They refunded the cost of the framing ($495). Don't get me started with this company!

 

Please, just stay away.

 

Thanks for this info. We actually love our Todd White print and would gladly pay to have it properly framed.

[andrzej5914]

 

Please, just stay away.

 

You haven't told me anything that I already didn't know, and I believe that is true for most cruisers.

 

I will not stay away. In fact I look forward to attending at least one or 2 lectures and auctions on every cruise I have ever been on. I enjoy it.

[Turk]

When Whole Foods opened a store just blocks away from our condo, we were elated. The excitement went away very quickly when we found the same fruits and veggies (by labels) that we bought at Publix, only at twice the price. Does that mean they are ripping off people? We could debate that all day long, but at the end, it comes down under "buyer beware". We still shop there on occasion but I'm not buying into their "natural, organic foods" hype any more. It's their business plan and many people buy into it, and they are allowed to operate.

 

Tell me, what's the difference?

 

If they have the fruits or vegetable specifically marked "organic" and it is not, it is fraud. The same as if a gallery tells you the signature and numbering is authentic and later you find out it was applied by the gallery. That is fraud. What's even worse is if the application has destroyed the original art and made it worthless.

 

I would be upset if I found out that the milk sold as organic was just a different box and contained hormones that my daughter does not need. It is fraud and damaging.

[andrzej5914]

If they have the fruits or vegetable specifically marked "organic" and it is not, it is fraud. The same as if a gallery tells you the signature and numbering is authentic and later you find out it was applied by the gallery. That is fraud. What's even worse is if the application has destroyed the original art and made it worthless.

 

I would be upset if I found out that the milk sold as organic was just a different box and contained hormones that my daughter does not need. It is fraud and damaging.

 

I didn't say they mislabeled the product(s). In fact the labels tell me exactly what I need, want to know. All I said is that they sell the "natural, organic" concept, yet they sell some of the same fruits and veggies sold by Publix or Sweetbay in our town. They charge a great deal more because many customers don't pay attention to the details and just assume that "it must be better" because it's from Whole Foods.

[Turk]

I didn't say they mislabeled the product(s). In fact the labels tell me exactly what I need, want to know. All I said is that they sell the "natural, organic" concept, yet they sell some of the same fruits and veggies sold by Publix or Sweetbay in our town. They charge a great deal more because many customers don't pay attention to the details and just assume that "it must be better" because it's from Whole Foods.

 

Oh I understand, I was just making and example out of your post. But you hit the nail on the head about people assuming "it must be better" because it's whole foods.

 

People also assume "it must be true" because it's backed by and on a RCC cruise. That is exactly the problem why many let down their guard. Also, with the cost of the internet, very few do their research when on board. They just assume . . .

[klingoncruiser]

Interesting to see this old and thorny thread brought back up. You would think RCL would boot them and find another way to make money that does not lead to so much heart burn to so many people.

 

Oh well.....:rolleyes:

 

Thanks to those that brought it back up though. It needs to be kept out in the open.