Am I just having a bad day, or have others noticed?

[Onessa]

Is it the day and age in which we live, or have I just been noticing boorish behavior more and more since frequenting these boards?

 

I remember as a child growing up in a small town in the upper Midwest. One of my best friends was a boy a year older than me who lived two doors down. He was born with some horrible and rare disease that severely limited his mobility. It seemed nearly every summer, he had to have some operation and spend most of his summer vacation in some sort of cast or another. The neighborhood kids accepted him for what he was and we managed to re-invent our games so that he might be included. No one told us we had to, we just did.

 

One summer “Dave” had his surgery and was in a really nasty nearly full body cast. Dave’s mom worked at the local school and normally had the summer off, but this particular year she had to work six hours a day all July and August. Dave’s dad worked shifts and managed to trade off so that he would be home during at least most of the day, but he had to sleep sometime and there were times when a part of his shift overlapped with his wife’s work schedule.

 

At eleven years old I became Dave’s companion that summer. It was no hardship – he was my friend and as an only-child had lots of really cool toys. If anything happened, his dad or one of the neighbors were always around and if all else failed the library where my mom worked was about two blocks away.

 

This was long before working class people would have a pool in their backyard and in fact the only municipal pool was so small that they made a schedule as to when different groups could swim. Ten to twelve-year-old girls were scheduled from 2:30 to 3:30 every day. I was needed during that time and faced a summer without swimming.

 

The noon hour was scheduled as ‘adult’ swim at the pool – no one under 18 allowed. Dave’s mom arranged for an exception for me with the pool’s management. So every day when Dave’s mom came home for lunch, I’d pick my mom up for her lunch hour, we’d walk to the pool, I’d swim for about ½ hour, she’d watch and eat her lunch, we’d walk back to the library, I’d go home and change and be back by Dave’s house before his mom had to go back to work.

 

Did an eleven-year old splashing alone in the shallow end of the pool bother any of the adults swimming laps or cooling off on the deep end? I don’t know. No one made any comments to me or stared or glared. No one came up to my mother to complain. If the pool management heard anything, they did not share it with my mother. Was it such a horrible thing for the pool’s management to bend the rules?

 

On some of these boards, if anyone so much as posts an inquiry about swim diapers, blow-up pools, age restrictions for different venues, children’s dress codes, or even asks advice about which dinner seating might work better; it seems to be an invitation to half the cruise-critic membership to launch into a diatribe about how some people do not think the rules apply to them, or how “kids today . . .”, or to relate a story that they heard someone else heard when talking to someone else about their cruise where a teen . . . . . (fill in the blank). If someone posts a question that pops up regularly, some posters feel the need to point out the fact that there are “multiple” other threads that address that issue. And God bless the poor new cruiser who dares to ask if her husband has to wear a tie to dinner on formal night!

 

Is society really that intolerant of other people’s views or are cruise critic boards just a haven for the terminally cranky (those folks whose glass is not half-empty but nearly empty with a noticeable smudge and a small chip out of the rim – oh, and did they mention that dead thing floating around?!)

[GPoll189]

Onessa, I don't know if it is my place to write a response to your post, being only 26 and not having any kids of my own. But being a person who wants to have their own kids down the road I would like to give people my opion, and please don't take it the wrong way.

 

First of all, It is the parents responsible to bring their kids up. Not the grandparents, not the aunt or uncle, or anybody else. The only reason why these other people should have the responsiblity is if they have the custody of the kids. Having different rules is very confusion for children, they need something steady in their life. Talking about rules, if their are rules set fourth for the safety of the passengers it should be followed by the parents and of course the children, the children will follow their parents lead. Not having rules set down children will run amog all over and ruin the cruise for their parents and then the other passengers.

 

However, a vacation is suppose to be fun. Other passengers need to understand that families go on cruise to have fun. The parents of the children know the rules and if they are leanite and are not hurting anyone let them continue with them. If it is dangerous then open your mouth and talk nicely to the parent of the children. Talking nicely goes a long way over yelling and screaming. Explain why you feel the way you feel and comunicate. Both people can learn from each other.

 

I was a child cruiser, I started cruising at about age 4 and haven't stopped since then. I remember when I was younger my parent would have me either with them or the youth group. But as I got older I would have more freedom on the cruise, however if something happened that they didn't like I would be grounded to spending time with them so they could watch and monitor what I was doing. I plan on doing the same thing with my children.

 

People that bring their own pools on the ship, I feel that they are one of the smart people. Yes it takes up space on the ship, but if these passengers find room in an area that is off the beaten path it allows there children to enjoy there vacation, without disturbing the older passengers. Every one goes on a cruise to have fun.

 

Please don't take it the wrong way but, I feel rules should be followed that are set foward for the safety of others. However the most important rules are the ones set foward by the parents of the children.

 

24 cruises on HAL in 26 years on Earth

5 cruises on other lines in 26 years on Earth

25 cruies on HAL on NOORDAM on December 16th, 2006

[crusinmama06]

Onessa, you are 100% right! I have been following your recent posts and as always, you are the voice of reason.

 

I always feel bad for the new posters who have no idea what they are getting themselves into when they post. But for that, the mods should be controlling the behavior on the boards.

 

Any child thread seems to turn into a vent about leaving the little "ankle biters" at home (yes I have seen that exact reference too many times here)

 

And those who scream RULES RULES RULES where the children are concerned are often the first to post about how its ok to smuggle alcohol in a listerine container. :rolleyes:

[Kerry's Girls]

Hi -

I think that most of the people posting here are avid cruisers, which means many have been taking cruises for years before the relatively new idea of every ship being so kid-friendly. I also grew up taking cruises - and in those days there would just be a few kids on board and no kids' activities. Plus everyone had to go to dinner at the same time and dress up every night. Cruises just aren't like that anymore. Once I read these boards, I was afraid of the reaction I would receive on board a Princess ship with my twin toddlers. Of course, not only was every member of the crew amazingly welcoming - with one exception we also only had great experiences with the passengers (and I was expecting/looking for disapproval, so it's not like I was oblivious). I think the negative posters are upset that the cruise lines are heavily marketing to families, but if adults-only cruises had any market, there would be more.

 

You're so right, Michele - I also cringe when I read a post from someone who's about to receive a barrage of crabby responses.

 

Thankfully, these boards aren't the real world. I find so much useful information, so I try not to let the grumps get to me.

 

Thanks Onessa, for always having something great to say!

 

Best,

Mia

[Arubalisa]

Some people are just always negative. Whether they are unhappy with their lives or have been diappointed in life, who knows?

 

Some of these individual forums are more kid friendly than others. There is one forum for a particular cruise line where there are MANY people who think children should not be allowed on cruiseships PERIOD. Heck they frustrated me before we even had a child.

 

Do not take any of their comments personally. If I took comments personally on this forum or any of the others on the net in which I participate, I would have been hammered into the ground by now. Just try to ignore them the best you can and wade through the uh...cow chips :p ...The positives of the forums outweight the negatives.

 

Also if it is just one particular person who is annoying to you there is always the option of adding them to your "ignore list". Just click on the person's profile and you will see the link on the top right hand side.

[crusinmama06]

Also if it is just one particular person who is annoying to you there is always the option of adding them to your "ignore list". Just click on the person's profile and you will see the link on the top right hand side.

 

WOW, I had NO idea there was an ignore option! That's actually kind of funny. :D Thanks!

[Arubalisa]

See now...your mother always told you, "You learn something new everyday". :D

[eagmommy]

Onessa, I couldn't have said it better myself!!!:) I am one of those posters who innocently asked a question and got SMEARED!! It didn't feel to good. :( I am happily taking my 3 daughters on a cruise soon and can't wait! I may act more like a kid then they do!:) Happy sailing:)

[Dawniepoo]

Anytime I have a question about cruising and kids I come here to the family cruising board only. I learned the hard way.:o

 

Also, another thing to keep in mind is that these boards are somewhat anonymous, and people seem to think that means they can post anything they want without thinking of the consequences. So, I take everything I read here with a grain of salt.:D

[brandylaw]

Onnessa,

 

Bravo and Amen.

 

Some people just take themselves too seriously.

 

Not every little question or opinion asked for is a cry for one to go on a mission to change the world.

 

Lighten up, and concentrate on enjoying your vacation. If one does that I promise the little incidentals that come up will not bother you so much.

[mvls1]

Enjoy them while you can! Far to soon they will grow up and be gone. Those rude, boorish posters will get over it soon enough and it doesn't seem to have have stopped any of them from cruising. So enjoy your vacation with your children, set good examples for them and expect a few problems along the way. Always remember they are a precious gift.:)

[cruisinMImom]

Many times, I've too, come across posts that contain negative opinions on cruising with children and even those who've stated that cruising has just gotten "too affordable" :mad: . I think it's so sad that some people are so quick to judge others.

 

And then I found the family cruise threads! And I'm so thankful. There's so much great information here. The good outweighs the bad! And as a new poster myself, I'm thankful to see responses to questions that have already been asked. It saves valuable time trying to navigate through the endless pages of information.

 

I wish every family could experience the joy of a cruise vacation together. There's nothing more I enjoy than watching the wide eyes of 1st time cruiser, young or old, when they discover the enormity of a grand ship.

 

When my husband and I first started cruising, prior to having our children, we barely noticed there were kids on board (on the Fun Ships)! We actually went looking for the children's program center, just to see what it entailed.

[LittleBit]

I think it's more the feeling of everyone thinking that they are special, their child is special, everyone has a "reason" why they should be the exception to the rule.

 

Your example is a good one - you were in a small town, and were involved with a child with very special needs. The mother went to the director of the pool for an exception. (note that she did not poll everyone in town, but went directly to the management) Did having one kid in the pool during the adult time disturb anyone? probably not, and if your town was anything like mine, they all knew why you were there at that time, and didn't make a fuss. Had you invited 10 of your friends in to swim with you at that time it would have been. You probably did not strut around acting like you were the most important thing in a bathing suit, and probably tried not to make a nuisance of yourself - instead you probably kept pretty much to yourself, kept the noise to a minimum and probably did splash everyone near you..

 

What frustrates us nonparents is when someone opens with "I know that the rule says . . . but my child . . . and therefore we should get special treatment." Yes, I know you think your kid is great, but take a look at it from the other side of the coin too. And, frankly, it is my vacation too - and I would like to not have to deal with someone elses child.

 

[q]If someone posts a question that pops up regularly, some posters feel the need to point out the fact that there are “multiple” other threads that address that issue. [/q] Actually, most peopel who point out this information are doing so to let you know that your question HAS been asked efore and that there is already a plethora of info out there already and if you took a moment to check BEFORE you add yet another thread, that you check there first... Because really, how many different ways do we need to ask does my husband need to wear a tie on formal noght? (The answer, by the way, is yes, he does, if you are going to the formal dinning room...)

 

cruisinMImom? I wish that I COULD experience a cruise with my "family" too.. but right now my FAMILY is Me. Only me. I guess I don't get to have kids...Don't I count too?

[crusinmama06]

cruisinMImom? I wish that I COULD experience a cruise with my "family" too.. but right now my FAMILY is Me. Only me. I guess I don't get to have kids...Don't I count too?

 

I know I am not cruisinMIMom, but I feel compelled to answer this. Of course you count. Where does it say in this thread that you don't?

[sarh]

You might be interested to see a thread in celebrity under "seating arrangements". There was a posting about how awful it would be to share a table with a family, and I then noticed the same person had put a "how on earth can people take children on cruises" posting elsewhere - in answer to an innocent enquiry about childcare. I posted on the adult thread and thought I was going to get flamed and abused, but in fact the responses were reasonable. I really think that we shouldn't be forced to retreat into our own little area of this website for fear of attracting child-haters.

 

Unfortunately in the last couple of decades there seems to be a trend towards child-hatred in countries like the UK and US. There seems to be a view that they can go to Disneyland, MacDonalds and motels, but venture near anything more exclusive and the old ladies will be there tutting and just waiting for them to step out of line. It is quite irrational and just has to be challenged.

 

It does not exist in countries like Spain - we can easily spend the whole evening with kids in a smart Spanish restaurant and their presence will never be questioned-in fact they will be welcomed and fussed over.

 

On a recent cruise we had a table just for our family, but a couple alone were nearby. They came over to us and said - we've left our children at home, but seeing you here every evening has really made us miss them, we're bringing them with us next time.

 

I do agree with Brandylaw. Those who spend all their time moaning about kids are missing out on just enjoying themselves. Let's go on our cruises, have a good time and so encourage other families to do the same (but not too many - we don't want the kids' club overrun!! (only joking))

[Onessa]

. . . I wish that I COULD experience a cruise with my "family" too.. but right now my FAMILY is Me. Only me. I guess I don't get to have kids...Don't I count too?

 

I too am not Cruisnmom but also feel compelled to answer. In my former job, my crumudgen of a boss went into a rant in our weekly manager's meeting about "family friendly" policies, when someone brought up a situation where an employee had asked if

[Onessa]

What is a "family"? My boss at my former job (a real curmudgeon) went on a rant in one memorable manager's meeting. A co-worker was informing us that one of her reports would have slightly altered hours one day a week for the next six weeks to accommodate a child-care issue. My boss railed that these "family friendly" policies were discriminatory against people without young kids. We all rallied to point out real-life situations where the same "family friendly" flexibility was extended to help employees without kids (everything from a flooded basement, to a roommate with a car breakdown, to ill parents, issues with grand kids, volunteer commitments, etc.).

 

My boss seemed to think only a mom, a dad, and 2.5 kids under the age of 14 constituted a family. But there are all sorts of families (extended families, "like" a family, nuclear families, families of two, families of one).

 

Most cruise lines have policies set up to help all sorts of people - people who want to include their elderly parents or other travellers with special needs. There are policies to deal with single travelers or "unrelated" individuals travelling together. There are people who will need some sort of an accommodation in order to better enjoy their vacation. Some requests can be accommodated, others cannot.

[Onessa]

Last week MSNBC did a piece on growing intolerance toward children: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14136994/ (By Victoria Clayton)

 

In the piece the reporter asks if kids are getting worse or if it is a perception. It quotes Cindy Post Senning (director of the Emily Post Institute) as saying "Almost every generation will try to say that the current generation is worse than ever. I don’t think children are any worse than they’ve ever been." She also interviews Diane Hoffman, an associate professor of education at the University of Virginia who studies how culture influences parenting. Hoffman agrees that society is becoming more child-unfriendly. "We have a lot of pro-family, pro-child rhetoric out there but there’s little action behind the words," she says. "We continually marginalize children."

 

All in all, I'm glad I'm not growing up now. It seems the legal age to attain any 'right' is increasing, when the age at which we will charge a juvenile as an adult for a crime is lowering. The age to participate in activities is increasing, while the Disney's and others of the world keep lowering the age for child admission prices. When I was in high school, the football players who were caught at an underage beer party were made to run extra laps and sit out a game. When that happens now - the kids would be charged with a crime that would stay on their record for life, they would lose their drivers license, be kicked out of all athletics for the remainder of their high school career, and suspended from school. I'm not saying either punishment is right or wrong (or even more right or more wrong) - it's just hard to reconcile that the same behavior could have such radically different consequences in just 25 years! In my day, we might get sent home to change if our skirts were too short - last week the local school board was forced to a special meeting to "consider" allowing an 8YO to wear a hat in school (needed because he has lost all of his hair to chemo) - worse, they actually debated the merits and consequences of the matter - "it's a rule" argued one of the two dissenters. At least now we all know why the poor principal wouldn't rule on it herself!

[crusinmama06]

Great article Onnessa! I am sending it to my online moms group.

[cruisingbug]

I'd read this thread before but didn't feel compelled to post until I stumbled across a thread on the Carnival boards where someone was asking for recommendations about traveling with an infant and a poster actually said "Don't - it's too much work and people with children in strollers on ships are annoying" or some such.

Unbelievable! Of course it's work - any vacation with a baby is work, but it sure beats staying home. What, are new parents not allowed to vacation until their children hit puberty? I for one didn't have a baby to leave her alone for a week while I go off and have fun - I love being with her and I also love to travel - why should these be mutually exclusive?

Somehow these people think that cruising with a baby, because there's not a WalMart nearby, is somehow harder because you have to bring everything with you. So what? If you have everything with you then you're in better shape the rest of the cruise, IMO, fewer worries. And if you do happen to forget something (hopefully not diapers!) then you can get it at the next port...people do live in these places and have babies! I can't think of an easier way to travel, where all your meals are just steps away, everything is already paid or just goes onto your account, free room service whenever you need it, entertainment right there and no money lost if you have to leave early, etc etc.

And as for "banging people in the shins" with strollers - come on! I've never been attacked by a stroller, even in my single and childless days - and so far in 9 months I have yet to bump anyone with the stroller in the mall, at the park, etc - why would I suddenly lose all depth perception once I'm on a ship?

 

People HAVE become so intolerant of children it's pathetic....they're not animals, they're people...and they need to be nurtured and treated positively in order to become the next generation of leaders. I remember growing up there was a show "Kids are People Too"...maybe they need to resurrect that concept. Once upon a time each and every one of us was a crying infant - we should be thankful that someone took the time to comfort and care for us. Even before we'd made the decision to have children, I sympathized with the mother with a crying infant on a plane (how it must hurt their little ears!) rather than giving her dirty looks as so many do today. It's almost laughable to think that these folks who are railing on the children of today should actually be grateful - those babies will be paying for their Social Security - or voting it out of existence in 20-30 years! Perhaps that thought would engender a little more tolerance.

[crusinmama06]

Cruisingbug, I am amazed that you've been on CC for over 400 post and are now just running into it. It seems like an epidemic on the RCCL board.

 

There is rarely a child post that comes up where someone does not mention something rude and the thread gets out of control.

 

The latest, bringing a baby on board is "rude to your cabin neighbors because the crying all night long will keep the neighbors awake." :rolleyes:

 

Sorry, my kids slept through the night from 5 weeks on. There was no crying in the middle of the night.

 

They act like parents have no common sense.

[broberts]

First of all, It is the parents responsible to bring their kids up. Not the grandparents, not the aunt or uncle, or anybody else. The only reason why these other people should have the responsibility is if they have the custody of the kids. Having different rules is very confusion for children, they need something steady in their life. . . .

 

In this you are, IMO, simply wrong.

 

I was brought up with the belief that every adult is responsible for the raising of a community's children. All rules of behavior are new to children so its confusing anyway. Further, I believe that children should be allowed to develop their own rules of behavior based on what they observe and have been told by many different sources. Like any learning no two people are alike. Parents may try to impart conduct to children, and certainly they have the most influence, but a) parents are not always around, and b) parents may not always express themselves well or completely describe the context in which particular behavior is (not) acceptable.

 

Parents that tell their children that they should ignore adults other than the parents are doing their children a huge disservice. They are teaching them that there is no authority except one's parents and ultimately that, upon reaching adulthood, children need subscribe to no behavioral conventions.

 

Were parents omniscient it might be reasonable. Although I doubt it. Partly because, as human beings, parents are not necessarily & obviously consistent. Further, what makes society work is respect and consideration for others. Fundamentally only allowing parents to influence child behavior teaches the children that respect and consideration for others is wrong. Regardless of how often a parent might say or even demonstrate otherwise, the fundamental teaching is that no one else should or can influence ones behavior. This is wrong and ultimately will produce a society that I'm not comfortable with.

[cruisingbug]

Cruisingbug, I am amazed that you've been on CC for over 400 post and are now just running into it. It seems like an epidemic on the RCCL board.

I'm sure I've seen it here and there (altho I've never cruised RCCL) but since I didn't have kids before it wasn't on my radar nearly as much as it is now! I definitely, tho, have seen the ire of the smokers/nonsmokers debate as well as the "no jeans in the dining room" militants. Seems like a lot of crazy things set folks off!

[nanner10]

I was wandering around the boards and found your post, Onessa. Your story was heartwarming and made my day.

 

It also reminds me to keep in mind that many times the whole story is not always apparent to a casual observer. It really does not hurt to give someone the benefit of the doubt and assume the best instead of the worst.

[CruznIsBest]

I always feel bad for the new posters who have no idea what they are getting themselves into when they post.

 

I was one of those new posters!!! My very first post was in response to someone bashing a person who innocently asked about swim diapers (I happened to be searching for info on this prior to posting so I would be flamed for not searching first - LOL). Anyway, I just made a joke that I'd rather be swimming next to a baby wearing a swim diaper than some drunk in the pool who is inevitably peeing in it, and I was completely bashed. Lesson learned. ;-) Now I only come to the family cruising forum when I have questions about cruisin' with kids. People in the other areas of these message boards can be really mean!!! You'd think everyone would be happy 'cause we're talking about vacations. Oh, well. It's nice to meet other family-friendly, the glass is half-full type of people!!! I hope many of you are on our next cruise, because it'll be the first one with our 2-year old baby girl.