My theory on Mandatory "Service Fee"

[ohioNCLcruiser]

[quote name='NJBear']IF something is not right on a cruise that a person feels they need to cancel all participation in the service charge, the cruiseline should know what that is so they can correct it.

If it isn't any fault of the people who would benefit from the $$$$ then...:D

I guess the answer to WHY could always be "I'm a cheap sucker and I don't want to tip anyone for anything..ever" *shrug*[/quote]

thank you!!

[hotspur]

[quote name='NJBear']I guess the answer to WHY could always be "I'm a cheap sucker and I don't want to tip anyone for anything..ever" *shrug*[/QUOTE]
The problem is it's much easier to do this on a cruise ship where the people you're stiffing don't get to see you stiff them first-hand. Bet these cheapskates don't do it in a restaurant where the server will know that they've done it and might call them on it--or perhaps thank them loudly for their "generosity."

[ohioNCLcruiser]

I just dont think people realize how hard it is to be a waiter till they actually try doing it. I always left good tips but after working in a resturant, i started tipping more!

[steveaaaa]

[quote name='NJBear']IF something is not right on a cruise that a person feels they need to cancel all participation in the service charge, the cruiseline should know what that is so they can correct it.

If it isn't any fault of the people who would benefit from the $$$$ then...:D

I guess the answer to WHY could always be "I'm a cheap sucker and I don't want to tip anyone for anything..ever" *shrug*[/quote]

I am refering to people who prefer to tip in cash.Tipping is still the same whether in cash or autotipping. If it is not,then the wording or the use of the word tip is wrong.
Is it a tip or wages? What would the IRS rule it as?
Steve

[mbmam2]

We just got off of Pride of Hawaii. The service fee was automatically added, but I felt I should add an additional tip for our cabin attendant since he did such a great job. My son talked to several of the waiters in the bars late at night (another story!). They told him that management keeps 30% of the service fee automatically, and the rest is given out on an incentive system based upon the ratings for that particular cruise. since the ratings have been so bad since this ship launched, most of them had seen little of the incentive. Maybe the 30% is going to the unseen railing wipers and other behind the scenes people? I cannot believe management is keeping it. We did hear a lot of complaints about "management", so anything is possible. A full review will be posted on another thread.

[steveaaaa]

[quote name='mbmam2']We just got off of Pride of Hawaii. The service fee was automatically added, but I felt I should add an additional tip for our cabin attendant since he did such a great job. My son talked to several of the waiters in the bars late at night (another story!). They told him that management keeps 30% of the service fee automatically, and the rest is given out on an incentive system based upon the ratings for that particular cruise. since the ratings have been so bad since this ship launched, most of them had seen little of the incentive. Maybe the 30% is going to the unseen railing wipers and other behind the scenes people? I cannot believe management is keeping it. We did hear a lot of complaints about "management", so anything is possible. A full review will be posted on another thread.[/quote]
That is why they should be tipped in cash and not having doen for them automatically.When I tip at an eating establishment,I tip the waiter,not the dishwasher.And i don't tip at Burger king.
Steve

[newmexicoNita]

[quote name='seamama1'][B]Well, I sorta thought along these lines. Can't imagine one would take a job like this without a decent pay scale. Plus it would seem being a U.S. flagged carrier that DOL laws would apply. Thus my questions. [/B]

[B]The only reason it came to my mind at all is concerning the "service fee" as opposed or in conjunction with the "gratuity" issue. It makes sense now - thanks everyone![/B]

[B]In response to the "none of my business" remark; I know it is none of my business...just trying to get it straight. I wouldn't cruise it anyway...I remember American Hawaii Cruises and what a dreadful cruise experience that was. NCLA is having the exact same issues AHC had. Hope NCL lasts longer than they did.... [/B][/QUOTE]America Hawaii cruises did not offer the same type of cabins, newer ships, restaurant choices etc like NCL does. their rates, for what you got were very expensive but beleive it or not, a good portion of thier clientele were repeat cruisers who wanted the island experience, not so much the cruise experience. NMnita

[newmexicoNita]

[quote name='ohioNCLcruiser']Actually I really get mad when people talk about how they should be able to take this off easier then they currently can. I think you should have to do alot more then just say "i waited too long for my meal" considering your taking a hunk of the weekly pay away from 3 people, and maybe even getting them in big trouble.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree: yes, you should have the option, but you should also have to give a reason. If you are embarrassed, so what? Let's face it, 75% of those who want to adjust it are just plain cheap!!! The other 25% probably do have good reason and shouldn't feel embarrassed to let the staff know. The very few times we have not tipped in restaurants and there have been a few we have had the management come to our table or we have asked to speak to him/her on the way out. We let them know exactly what was wrong, nothing vague, but details. this way, hopefully the wait person can be talked to and made to realize why they were stiffed so they can improve. And Steveaa, tipping the old fashion way just would not work with freestyle, plus other lines have gone to the $10 per day as well. Why, because of the cheappies who don't feel tipping is important. NMnita

[steveaaaa]

[quote name='newmexicoNita']And Steveaa, tipping the old fashion way just would not work with freestyle, plus other lines have gone to the $10 per day as well. Why, because of the cheappies who don't feel tipping is important. NMnita[/quote]
Your right,I forgot that you have a different wait staff each evening.What about the room steward?Are they the same? If so,what portion of the $10 per person per day do they get?
Steve

[newmexicoNita]

[quote name='steveaaaa']Your right,I forgot that you have a different wait staff each evening.What about the room steward?Are they the same? If so,what portion of the $10 per person per day do they get?
Steve[/QUOTE]I really am not sure the breakdown, but I think someone, maybe Shoreguy has it. Yes, you do have the same room steward daily; most are outstanding. I will say, one thing that does bother me a little or more than a little, the room stewards rarely introduce themselves anymore. On our Jewel cruise we really were not sure who ours was, but about 1/2 through figured it out. She did an awesome job and always had a smile and a Hello when you saw her. I just wasn't sure she belonged to us. NMNita

[burchan]

[quote name='sjbdtz']The interesting thing is that my 'attitude' was a response to a specific poster who said they wanted to do away with the mandatory service charge.

The last gratuity I extended was a few days ago, dinner bill for family was $801 including tax....and the tip was $174....so I will not stand for being told I'm not adequately generous.[/quote]

If you paid $801 for dinner then restaurant owner could pay good wage to waiter and you would not need to tip. Is the service worth $174. Do all the staff get share of this tip? It would not be fair if only one individual pockets all the tips. Strange custom. The rest of the world manage without tipping and we still get good service. I do not object to tipping but would prefere to have it added to the bill instead tipping individualy. I just feel insulted that I have to bribe someone to be nice to me.

[sjbdtz]

[quote name='burchan']I just feel insulted that I have to bribe someone to be nice to me.[/quote]


What bribery? We gave the gratuity AFTER the meal, and just before leaving. We could have left nothing, and still received the same service.

[sjbdtz]

[quote name='burchan']I just feel insulted that I have to bribe someone to be nice to me.[/quote]


What bribery? We gave the gratuity AFTER the meal, and just before leaving. We could have left nothing, and still received the same service.

[seamama1]

[quote name='newmexicoNita']America Hawaii cruises did not offer the same type of cabins, newer ships, restaurant choices etc like NCL does. their rates, for what you got were very expensive but beleive it or not, a good portion of thier clientele were repeat cruisers who wanted the island experience, not so much the cruise experience. NMnita[/quote]

[B]Back in AHC heyday, there were few ships of the sort we see today. Most were older, with smaller cabins (Norway comes to mind and the older HAL, Sitmar ships, etc). Until AHC let maintenance go, delayed refit and upgrade, the ships themselves weren't the problem. We eventually began to hear of shabby carpets, shabby and soiled drapes and general dishevelment on the ships.[/B]

[B]AHC issues were mostly service and food issues. Also on the long complaint lists we got were rude staff, cabins not made up until late in the afternoon, late meal service, and overpriced drinks, photos, gift shop and other products to buy on the ship. Some other issues I recall were; receiving no response to problems in the cabin or to complaints about delayed sailings from port. Most said they enjoyed visiting the islands but did not like the ships.[/B]

[B]Many honeymooners booked those cruises and most were disheartened.[/B]

[B]When they first started up, there was a lot of excitement about the idea of cruising the Hawaiians. Most declared it a truly disappointing experience and wouldn't go again. And, they didn't.[/B]

[B]From our point of view, customer service was nil. Trying to satisfy clients complaints by dealing with reps, cust svc, etc. was more than frustrating. [/B]

[B]I truly hope that NCLA makes it. But, I have to tell ya, it's not looking good. As an aside, my son lives on Maui. He said there are a lot of ex-employee refugees from NCLA trying to earn a one-way ticket home. He has hired a few of them himself. A couple of them have told my son they just got tired of working their bu--s off and just walked off the ship.....[/B]

[OTRlady]

[quote name='jimc_usa']I assume that you may not know that minimum wage does not apply to waiters/waitress' in the US.
Many beginning or inexperienced workers start earning the Federal minimum wage of $5.15 an hour. However, a few States set minimum wages higher than the Federal minimum. Also, various minimum wage exceptions apply under specific circumstances to disabled workers, full-time students, youth under age 20 in their first 90 days of employment, tipped employees, and student-learners. Tipped employees are those who customarily and regularly receive more than $30 a month in tips. The employer may consider tips as part of wages, but the employer must pay at least $2.13 an hour in direct wages. Employers also are permitted to deduct from wages the cost, or fair value, of any meals or lodging provided. Many employers, however, provide free meals and furnish uniforms. Food and beverage service workers who work full time often receive typical benefits, while part-time workers usually do not.[/quote]

My family has worked in the restaurant business in the US for 40 years. What the poster says is true--the employer must pay a small direct wage. What is not stated is that if the employee does NOT make enough in tips to bring him/her up to the minimum wage, the employer is obligated to make up the difference. In most cases, a tipped employee who does not make enough tips to cover the difference will be let go. I'm not sure on a ship, where there is a contract, and where the deductions for meals, board, and uniforms must be figured in, how this would play out. So, consider when you decide not to tip whether you are contributing to an employee losing their job. Is that what you meant to have happen?

OTOH (and not having cruised Norwegian), I believe that a "gratuity" is just that--an extra amount that I pay because I am grateful for the service. I don't care whether it is deducted automatically or not; I should have the right to adjust the amount of my gratefulness. [I]However[/I], if the amount is stated as a "service charge", it is not a tip (regardless of how NCLA decides to distribute the collected money), and I feel I am obligated to pay for the service I received--whether I liked it, felt grateful for it, or not. Just my opinion.

And by the way, the only time I ever didn't tip above and beyond the suggested amount on a cruise was when the cash we had set aside for the cabin steward was misplaced, and when we couldn't find it, we thought she had taken it, as the last time we saw it, it was lying out on the bed the night all the envelopes were distributed. Two days later, we found the cash under a flap in the suitcase, and were quite embarrassed that she didn't get it. Even though her service had been marginal, we contacted the cruise line in an effort to get the money to her after-the-fact. Unfortunately, we were told by the cruise line that it was "no big deal. Lots of passengers don't tip." Unless we had her employee ID, there was no way to direct the money to her--even though we knew her name, her post, the ship, and sailing date that it should have been credited to. The cruise line basically refused to help us, and we had no other way of contacting the woman. I always felt bad about that.

So, I actually don't mind the prepaid "tips" that I've encountered on other lines. It ensures I will never not tip through an accident again. The lines I have sailed on have allowed me to adjust the prepaid tip amount at will. You can even adjust a single day when something happened, if you want. In one case, I did switch the recommended amounts for the waiter and assistant waiter, because I felt the service rendered by each had been indicative of the other's role. I have always been able to request envelopes in addition to the prepaid tips, in case I also wanted to tip someone outside the usual roster. I'm perfectly happy with this method, and nothing I've read about NCLA's policy seems out of line--even having to name names. If the service was that bad, I [I]should[/I] be able to document it before penalizing someone for it.

[shoreguy]

[quote name='OTRlady']My family has worked in the restaurant business in the US for 40 years. What the poster says is true--the employer must pay a small direct wage. What is not stated is that if the employee does NOT make enough in tips to bring him/her up to the minimum wage, the employer is obligated to make up the difference. In most cases, a tipped employee who does not make enough tips to cover the difference will be let go. I'm not sure on a ship, .[/quote]

Works almost the same onboard. Bar server on NCL is paid $1000 a month draw against tips. If the tips exceed the draw they are paid out. If they don't make the minimum all the "extra" people add to the check go against the shortfall. That is why cash is king.


Like on land - if they don't make enough to cover the draw on a regular basis the contract is not renewed of they could be terminated mid contract for truly bad performance.

[newmexicoNita]

[quote name='seamama1'][B]Back in AHC heyday, there were few ships of the sort we see today. Most were older, with smaller cabins (Norway comes to mind and the older HAL, Sitmar ships, etc). Until AHC let maintenance go, delayed refit and upgrade, the ships themselves weren't the problem. We eventually began to hear of shabby carpets, shabby and soiled drapes and general dishevelment on the ships.[/B]

[B]AHC issues were mostly service and food issues. Also on the long complaint lists we got were rude staff, cabins not made up until late in the afternoon, late meal service, and overpriced drinks, photos, gift shop and other products to buy on the ship. Some other issues I recall were; receiving no response to problems in the cabin or to complaints about delayed sailings from port. Most said they enjoyed visiting the islands but did not like the ships.[/B]

[B]Many honeymooners booked those cruises and most were disheartened.[/B]

[B]When they first started up, there was a lot of excitement about the idea of cruising the Hawaiians. Most declared it a truly disappointing experience and wouldn't go again. And, they didn't.[/B]

[B]From our point of view, customer service was nil. Trying to satisfy clients complaints by dealing with reps, cust svc, etc. was more than frustrating. [/B]

[B]I truly hope that NCLA makes it. But, I have to tell ya, it's not looking good. As an aside, my son lives on Maui. He said there are a lot of ex-employee refugees from NCLA trying to earn a one-way ticket home. He has hired a few of them himself. A couple of them have told my son they just got tired of working their bu--s off and just walked off the ship.....[/B][/QUOTE]I think we all hope NCLA makes it: if you have been on these boards for years, like many of us you will see a trend here: POA gets better reviews than the other 2, indicating, in time some of the problems seem to work themselves out. We also know the labor laws on a flagged American ship is different causing some of the problems. I don't want to be the kind that says American kids (which most crew members are) are lazy, I don't think this is totally true, but I also don't think they have been exposed to the same life crew members on other flagged ships have. Many coming from other countries are just happy to have a job and have some money to send back to the families. The American crew members I am assuming (I know, not a good idea to assume) are young and just looking for a change of pace, a little excitement and what they think will be glamour. They also can walk off and return home a little easier than those who are from countries many oceans or miles away. When you mix many Americans who expect the experienc of Hawaii to be like other cruises and an American crew tha is very different from other crews you can have disaster.I have had a couple of cruisers this summer on the POA that had absolutely no complaints. Let's hope!!!! NMNita

[steveaaaa]

[quote name='newmexicoNita'] I don't want to be the kind that says American kids (which most crew members are) are lazy, I don't think this is totally true, but I also don't think they have been exposed to the same life crew members on other flagged ships have. Many coming from other countries are just happy to have a job and have some money to send back to the families. [/quote]
You are so correct.People from other countries have a much lower wage scale.On these ships most of the waiters and room stewards are considered rich by the standards of their countries.In Dominica,the average wage is .55 to $1.15 per hour so on a ship,they do very well.In the US, you cannot live on even the minimum wage.
Steve

[samkade]

I have every intention of going to the desk and removing the service charge upon arrival. I never tip for service I have not received yet. More often than not I don't even leave a tip.

[newlywedcruisers]

[quote name='samkade']I have every intention of going to the desk and removing the service charge upon arrival. I never tip for service I have not received yet. More often than not I don't even leave a tip.[/quote]

Wow... please never be on a cruise w/ me. I really don't wanna deal with all the staff you will anger. Plus if I knew you were there I would feel bad and tip double to make up for your inconsiderate additude.

[newmexicoNita]

[quote name='samkade']I have every intention of going to the desk and removing the service charge upon arrival. I never tip for service I have not received yet. More often than not I don't even leave a tip.[/QUOTE]I really can't believe you are for real: I have to think you are just here to see our reactions. If you are for real, it's those like you that will someday see manatory service charges added to everything. Florida already adds 17% to every check in all restaurants: why, cause people are cheap: This applies to rooms, restaurants etc in Bahamas as well as many foreign countries. Of course your response will be: pay them better: that is an option, then we can see our costs going up and we are not able to thank our servers by giving them a little bit of $$s. Remember those tips are only partically taxed; much of what they earn is tax free and God only knows, they deserve every penny. I would bet, it you are for real, you also enjoy making the crews life less than pleasant. NMNita

[steveaaaa]

[quote name='samkade']I have every intention of going to the desk and removing the service charge upon arrival. I never tip for service I have not received yet. More often than not I don't even leave a tip.[/quote]

This is why it needs to be included in the fare.
Steve

[newlywedcruisers]

Nita-
I wonder if he is real, seeing as this is his first post. Hopefully he is nothing more than an angry person hoping to use his "first hit wonder" to get us all going, and not a real cruiser.

[steveaaaa]

[quote name='newlywedcruisers']Wow... please never be on a cruise w/ me. I really don't wanna deal with all the staff you will anger.

[/quote]

Do you actually think they send a memo to every crew member with your picture on it?How about those that like to tip in cash?
Steve

[steveaaaa]

[quote name='newmexicoNita'] Florida already adds 17% to every check in all restaurants: why, cause people are cheap: [/quote]

NMnita, I live in FL and we do not have it added in our restaurants here. I know it is for parties of 8 or more I think.
Steve