Religious Services on Carnival.

[cruiselubbers]

I've really tried to stay out of this debate, but I couldn't help commenting on this. Using this logic, why couldn't one pray on the way to school instead of actually in school?

 

 

Hey Meredith,

 

I already answered that one....they can, but some kids still like the peace of mind it gives them once they get to school. Read back a few posts as I already answered that question.

 

Thanks. :cool:

[cruiselubbers]

When you start off your trip with a prayer, do the people in the surrounding cars have to pray too? Or do they sit quietly. Is a law required for you to pray in your car?

 

 

Last I checked you can pray whenever you want to & you should be allowed to pray where ever you want to. It's not my job to decide whether the other driver prays or not, but I sure do pray for them that they too will have a safe trip.

 

;)

[BillnBobbi]

I was going to stay away from this long twisted thread entirely...BUT...since there seems to be no end to it, allow me to add a few toughts...

 

First, I have no great problem with anyone who is an uncompensated volunteer leading a religious service onboard, provided it is separate, non-intrusive/obtrusive...and not connected to any sort of proseletyzing...

 

OTOH, I also agree that the cruise lines (Carnival or any other) should not have to deal with acquiring the services of clergy for any specific group...

 

I do find public displays of decorations or religious items tailored to one specific group to be at least mildly offensive (and yes, most Christmas-related decor is NOT "non-denominational")...

 

"Non-denominational", though sounding idyllic, is actually a virtual impossibility..."Non-denominational Christian" is still Christian...General stuff about God still cannot be general...Different religions have completely different concepts regarding what that entity is or represents...or even if it's a single entity...or even if it exists at all...There is NO generalized way to cover everyone's beliefs...

 

To the person who brought up the old "this country was founded by Christians" thing, that statement is one I have heard so many times and it still astounds me as to how ignorant the people who use that are...This country was founded by people with a wide variety of religious views--including Deists, Jews, Atheists and others...in fact, most of the top minds who framed the Constitution and Bill of Rights were expressly NOT Christians...If one actually would read these documents...or the histories surrounding them, they'd realize that one of the great tenets of our country is the freedom FROM religion...It was a rebellion from the "State Religions" of the European powers of the time...the idea that the government should not sanction and subsidize any religion as the "official" religion of the state...People came to this country in order to freely practice their own religions or philosophies or even NO religion if that is what they desired...

 

And please allow me to bring up one point that hasn't even been touched on thus far in six pages of posts...If you really want a religious experience, there are plenty to be had without bringing it onto the ship...When you do a "land" vacation, do you lobby Hilton or Hyatt to hold religious services in your hotel?

 

I have cruised many, many times in my life...I am a Jew...During port stops while cruising, I have visited Synagogues in St. Thomas, Copenhagen, Venice, Rhodes, Dubrovnik, Corfu and Istanbul...Last summer, during our stop in Rhodes, I was part of a Minyan (a required quorum for public prayer) in the Synagogue in Rhodes--a very moving experience...

 

(By the way, I have also visited churches in many ports as well--so, I know they exist!)

 

If I can find Synagoues in all of these remote places, I really don't think any of you devout Christians would have much trouble finding your religious services in any of the ports you visit...I would suggest it would be a far more moving and religious experience to pray amongst the locals in these distant and diverse places than it would be to hold a "service" in some cruise ship lounge somewhere between Bingo and Karaoke...

 

 

Thank you for your cogent posting as well. We visited Dubrovnik two years ago and had a very hard time finding the postage stamp sized synagogue in the old city, but we persisted. I know several Croatians whose families protected Jews from the Germans (Note: this page has been edited, because apparently the acronym for the National Socialist Party of the German Reich is considered to be a deletable word here, I don't know why I left the same word with **** down below) during WWII. We also visited The Ghetto in Venice, where we were not unexpectedly "accosted" by a couple of young Chabadniks. It wasn't much different than the same thing in NY in their Mitzvah Mobiles, except in Venice of course, there are not autos.

"So, you'll stay and come to shabbos services tonight?"

"No we have to get back to the ship."

"So, we'll give you shabbos candles to light in your room (sic)?"

"No, because one is not allowed to light flames on a cruise ship?"

"NO????"

"No"

"So how do you celebrate shabbos?"

"Oh, don't worry, we'll do our usual mitzvah."

" oh, hahhah, good good, and you have many children?"

"Just two. (that's about 10 less than the average Lubavitcher)"

" So, you havin' anymore?"

" Well, A , that's not your business, and B, don't you think we look a bit old?"

"Oh, so now you wait for the grandchildren?"

"Yeah, just keep 'em comin'"

 

At any rate, I usually have fun funning with the frum, especially the ones who think Schneerson's still coming back from the dead.

 

We will be in Rhodes in August. We're heading for the clothing optional beach, but if you can tell me where the synagogue is located, we'll be sure to put something in the donation box.

 

This isn't with us a matter of religion, but of helping the remnant survive after the **** holocaust. Athiest or not, we're still members of the tribe.

 

Oh, and it's Friday, Shabbat Shalom.

[cruiselubbers]

If I remember correctly, there was a school shooting during a prayer meeting somewhere. You talked about what happened to you and your children when you tried to get this started. Thefore, isn't there a possibility of someone who disagrees with payer in school to try to do something during a prayer meeting to prove their point?

 

 

Yes, & I'll take my chances....if it's my time it's my time & want to be doing the right thing when it happens. If I happen to be in prayer and die....or get killed in this conversation atleast I'll still be standing up for what I believe to be true in my heart. Yes, I would ask for forgiveness for the other person......I've been down that road already.....so I've already done it. That might sound hard to believe to some but you'd just have to know how I am to understand where I am coming from.

 

BTW....we all know it happens when there is not prayer going on as well......so if I am willing to stand up for what I believe in once again I'll take my chances. People die everyday standing up for what they believe in.....like I said if that's my fate well that's ok, I accept it. I've accepted it a long time ago.

 

I believe you possibly meant to sound concerned by asking your question....and I just wanted to say thanks if that was what you were meaning.

[cruiselubbers]

I agree, students can pray to themselves anytime they want to. What I don't understand is why this isn't enough, and blubber's personal never-ending crusade to have a specific time set aside for it.

 

 

If you are talking to me here.....not sure because you didn't use anyone proper CC name it's because I am following the calling God has placed on my life.

[CruiseToTahiti]

Awesome return post from you thanks. I did want to go in here & point out this one part of your thread because it is very important to me. You are very right you & I both will walk away from this discussion at peace. No doubt about it. It can't begin to say online the things that I have felt led to do in my life for His honor, but I can tell you in the process I have been shot at, laughed at, screamed at, cursed at, plus more not including had people threaten to kidnap my children so to me this all is very minor. It's something I have endured over the years and will continue to endure. But when it's all said and done I know I have peace within because everynight that I go to bed I can lay down and put my head on my pillow knowing I have done what He's asked me to do. Whether the rest of the world agrees with it or not has nothing to do with me, I know who I serve.

 

I still say the best solution would be to have an open prayer time announced for a non-denominational prayer time....have someone just say it's began & same person say prayer time is over & just have a united group of people. As I said earlier even maybe a moment of silenc before setting sail so people can pray for a safe journey. I think everyone prays for that no matter who or what they believe in. My bro the atheist always does just so he has peace of mind. It works for him.

 

Peace :cool:

 

Do you live in Bagdad or Los Angeles? :eek: :D

[cruiselubbers]

Then why make my child or some one elses child uncomfortable by making a big deal about having to have an "official" moment of prayer in school?

 

Why try to do such an unamerican and unconstitutional act and try to push legislation thru to force others to to what you can simply choose to do on your own already?

 

Why must something so personal have to be made a public spectacle?

 

"Look, I'm praying..I'm so good."

 

I was also taught that actions speak louder than words.

 

Freedom from religious persecution is a constitutional right...and I will not have anyone force thiers on me or legislate any laws or rules to make me or any other american follow or be forcibly exposed to thier beliefs.

 

It's not what my father fought for. and it is not what this country is all about.

 

Come to Philadelphia and visit our national constitution center. You will definitely leave with a new perspective on the world and our present polititions. :D

 

 

Remember I said it wasn't to make anyone feel uncomfortable. It is more just to as I said earlier enforce the moment of silence & let people know they have the right to pray during that moment. No one ever said it has to be out loud ever. Our children were given 1 minute a day to clear their heads before school starts....if they pray they pray if they just think gosh I wish this day was over they can do that too.....but they should just have a moment to clear their heads before work begins. Just because they are children doesn't mean they are any less stressed the the adults that need a minute to think before they begin their day as well. The moment is already offical in every school in America even as we speak...it's just the point of whether each school chooses to use it or not and it's my right as an American to let people know they have the right to use that minute.

 

BTW believe it or not I am coming that way in June to see the Tut exhibit in Philadelphia. I also plan on showing my children the rest of what history has to show us. We are very excited to be coming that way!

:D

[BillnBobbi]

Oh hon, I live in a really nice place & I hope I didn't scare anyone there!

 

I live in NC, but due to something I felt called to do one time, it caused a pretty good ruckus! It wasn't something I wanted to do, but.....I was listening to what I knew I was being told to do.....so to stay in the word.....I did it of course.

 

Part of me says I should keep my mouth shut, but then other parts of me say I should just tell you what it was. The worse thing that can happen is I can have more of what has already been done to me & like I said I can accept that.

 

So felt called to start a petition to get peer inspired prayer put back in schools & for the moment of silence to actually exsist everyday. Spent alot of time in Raleigh sorting this one out & talked to alot of officials. Still is an ongoing thing but I work a little more under camo these days as I was shot at & did receive several kidnapping threats concerning my kids. Couldn't even honor them for their good grades in school for years because I wasn't comfortable listing their names in the paper. Had to change their schools several times & move 3 times just to keep the address off the air. But to the good it's went it's in over 26 states and has millions of signatures and has been widely talked about since I felt led to go & do that.

 

I do have several different websites concerning the different things I have been involved in plus the online ministry....there's so much more I could say on that.....but.

 

:cool:

 

 

I'm truly sorry someone was crazy enough to take a pot shot at you. You are certainly entitled to your beliefs and opinions. Once again children are certainly free to pray with their parents before leaving for school each day. If that is what give you solace, I have no reason to argue with you or object.

However WHEN YOU SEEK TO IMPOSE YOUR CLOSELY HELD BELIEFS ON OTHERS WHO DO NOT SHARE YOUR BELIEFS, THEN YOU ARE VIOLATING MY FREEDOMS AND MY RIGHTS AS A CITIZEN.

SO AS I STATED IN THE TITLE, WHAT PART OF SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

 

When I was a kid, growing up in The Bronx (which at that time was about 1/3 Jewish, 1/3 Italian Catholic and 1/3 Irish Catholic), all of the Jewish kids, and a good percentage of the Italian kids went to public school. A large percentage of the Irish kids went to parochial parish schools.

At Christmas time, I recall in about fifth or six grade, being made to stand

on the auditorium stage, with my classmates (the vast majority of whom were also Jewish) and sing SILENT NIGHT !!! We knew we were supposed to sing this because it was rehearsed. This was back in the days when if you were NOT Christian, well tough nuggies. Fortunately our parents had the presence of mind to ask the local rabbis what to do. They said ABSOLUTELY NOT to sing that song. So we did what we were told, and when the orchestra struck up we mostly just stood there. Well the music teacher was appalled, but later on as I learned , the parents furiously protested along with not only JEWISH CLERGY but CHRISTIAN CLERGY as well. That was the last time we sang any religious songs in public school in our neighborhood.

Oh, and at that time, just to be nice to the Jews, they threw us a bone, and gave us one song to sing - the insipid, I Had A Little Dreidel.

But the "Trouble With Christmas" persists, as the title of a book by Tom Flynn ( Secular Humanist Society) so rightly discusses.

 

BnB

[cruiselubbers]

Hey, do you suppose that kind of thing helped the folks on the Titanic?

Or, how about the Lusitania?

Andrea Doria?

 

If your brother actually prays for a safe trip, then he is NO atheist.

 

BnB

 

I can promise you my brother is what he is. However he has learned prayer from me and I have learned some things from him. It's a joint venture....it's called sharing. We talk & learn from each other, just because we don't agree on some things doesn't mean we just stopped communicating.

 

If I was on one of those ships it would have helped me greatly. For me to know God is to know peace...without Him, I wouldn't have the peace in my life that I have.

;)

[BillnBobbi]

Hats off to your parents for their hard work, especially your father. I love our veterans & current installed military more then words, I pray for them everyday.

 

However what I have going on does not change the law any differently from the way it is now, it only assures people (actually of all creeds) that they will be guarenteed one minute at the start of the day to have silent prayer. That was never taken out of the law, each school has a right to have 1 minute a day to enjoy a moment of silence. It is just not well known of or even talked about on the whole. What I was doing was just simply letting people know that they had the right to that moment. Also you cannot take away a bible or other religious item from a child during their free time such as outside free play. This has been done to many young children and it is not right for their religious item to be taken away regardless of what religion they honor. Also this does allow Peer Inspired Prayer. PIP was never banned from the school either, only adult led prayer by teachers & staff was more or less forbidden. This does allow any child regardless of religious belief once again to pray to the God of their choice & it allows them to lead prayer amongest other children. It also allows for prayer groups amongest believers of the same. It is very equal and very fair to everyone. If a student decides to lead prayer during that one moment other students can either join in the same prayer or have prayer on their own. Alot of consideration has been given about this in my local area & due to this now a moment of silence every morning. No one has had any problems with it, because it gives everyone an equal opportunity to express their beliefs & share with their peers.

 

So "free" school still allows for equal rights. I also think its fair to mention here that public "free" school really isn't free since as a homeowner and taxpayer I still have to pay for children' education whether I want to or not. There's a lot of homeschoolers in NC as well, and they still have to pay tax. It's amazing to me what little is free anymore.

 

I think however if we are going to keep discussing this, we might want to consider discussing it elsewhere....I don't want to keep posting in this thread as I don't care for others to get madder at me then what they already are. I'm not here for the great big debate....it just happened this way....and I'd be more then glad to discuss it somewhere else.

 

Take care :D

 

 

Please understand that I am not mad at you. I simply disagree with you in a very strong way. I think people such as yourself represent ideas that are dangerous to the United States' continuing as an open democracy.

I have to admit that I certainly did not mourn the passing the other day of the bigoted and homophobic Jerry Falwell -"god does not hear the prayers of a Jew" "god allowed 9/11 because of rampant lesbianism and homosexuality"

 

Frankly the first statment is probably correct, since there is no god to hear ANYONE's prayers. - Might I suggest a thorough reading of the just released , God Is NOT Great, by Christopher Hitchens.

 

The second statement is so bigoted and absurd that it is not even worth a reply.

 

And this religious thug, was granted innumerable air time by the major networks, as if he was some kind of authority on theology.

 

As the London Mirror once said in a headline, "How can 59 million people be so dumb?"

 

BnB

[cruiselubbers]

I'm truly sorry someone was crazy enough to take a pot shot at you. You are certainly entitled to your beliefs and opinions. Once again children are certainly free to pray with their parents before leaving for school each day. If that is what give you solace, I have no reason to argue with you or object.

However WHEN YOU SEEK TO IMPOSE YOUR CLOSELY HELD BELIEFS ON OTHERS WHO DO NOT SHARE YOUR BELIEFS, THEN YOU ARE VIOLATING MY FREEDOMS AND MY RIGHTS AS A CITIZEN.

SO AS I STATED IN THE TITLE, WHAT PART OF SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

 

When I was a kid, growing up in The Bronx (which at that time was about 1/3 Jewish, 1/3 Italian Catholic and 1/3 Irish Catholic), all of the Jewish kids, and a good percentage of the Italian kids went to public school. A large percentage of the Irish kids went to parochial parish schools.

At Christmas time, I recall in about fifth or six grade, being made to stand

on the auditorium stage, with my classmates (the vast majority of whom were also Jewish) and sing SILENT NIGHT !!! We knew we were supposed to sing this because it was rehearsed. This was back in the days when if you were NOT Christian, well tough nuggies. Fortunately our parents had the presence of mind to ask the local rabbis what to do. They said ABSOLUTELY NOT to sing that song. So we did what we were told, and when the orchestra struck up we mostly just stood there. Well the music teacher was appalled, but later on as I learned , the parents furiously protested along with not only JEWISH CLERGY but CHRISTIAN CLERGY as well. That was the last time we sang any religious songs in public school in our neighborhood.

Oh, and at that time, just to be nice to the Jews, they threw us a bone, and gave us one song to sing - the insipid, I Had A Little Dreidel.

But the "Trouble With Christmas" persists, as the title of a book by Tom Flynn ( Secular Humanist Society) so rightly discusses.

 

BnB

 

 

Ah I understand all that for certain. I grew up Catholic....I was born in NJ didn't come till NC till I was 12 & also had many Jewish friends. To be honest with you I had so many of each that I celebrated both. I know that sounds close to impossible but it does work. By showing respect for each individual need you really can blend them if you try. It was always interesting in my group to learn about both and the importance of both. You really get a whole sense of respect to the universe and the people in it that way. It's a pretty unique thing. I later became a Christian so I added more stuff to the mix.

 

So yes everytime I see a set of Rosary beads I smile, I actually still have a set that on occassion I pray with because they give me comfort. I see menorahs & I smile because I know what they stand for & the idea of giving something from the heart on each day is awesome. I bought my children Dreidels and taught them how to play with them while teaching them their meaning. I see my Christmas tree & I smile & give my gifts from heart. I've learned however over the years....that Christmas is best spent doing something together....like going on a vacation that what it is buying stuff! That's become a regular practice for 3 years now! We buy a few little things but save our Christmas as a time to spend with each other. I've accepted my adopted online brother as being Jain & have learned about his gods & I understand why my brother believes in Jesus, but not God. I believe there is good in every religion regardless of whether I agree with it or not as I believe if something is so important that people will stand up for what they believe in then there must be something good about it.

 

Gosh you guys are learning all sorts of things about me!

[BillnBobbi]

Do you live in Bagdad or Los Angeles? :eek: :D

 

You mean there's a difference?

 

BnB

[cruiselubbers]

Please understand that I am not mad at you. I simply disagree with you in a very strong way.

BnB

 

I understand. Like I've said if we were all the same the world would be a very boring place! ;)

 

Let me agree with you on something I too wasn't fond of Rev. Falwell either. Someone out there will probably jump me for this one.....but I think he was a poor example. Alot of these tv preachers....and live ones on the weekend are enough to leave a sour taste in anybodys mouth!

 

I feel certain to we will probably never agree on this conversation but that's ok. I think it's important that both of us have gotten the opportunity to express our feelings on this matter. We both have strong opinions on what we believe in & I think that's a great thing! It shows we are both willing to stand solid to with we believe to be close in heart!

 

With that in mind gotta love these boards! :D

 

Take care! I honestly & truly mean that you know! ;)

[Attack Dog]

If you are this "gentle" Christian, why is your call name "Attack Dog"?

I also wasn't aware that retired priests constituted an "army"?

Are THEY waiting to attack some unsuspecting cruiser? How many of these retired priests are known pedophiles?

 

How does a CATHOLIC priest conduct a Non-denominational service for OTHER Christians, when the entire point of the origin of Protestantism was to disregard the papacy's claim to primacy and infallibility (and the latter only at the end of the 19th century). If I were a non-Catholic Christian I would be offended by the presumption of a Catholic priest whose very presence at this kind of service would be a contradiction.

 

I also think that a "non-denominational" service would necessarily be so watered down as to be totally uninspiriing to those present whose separate beliefs are at odds with one another. As a matter of fact, the beliefs are initially at odds, once you bring a "god" into the equation.

 

The questioner who asks "Do you believe in God?", is always making the assumption that a "yes" answer implies that the responders belief is consistent with their own.

 

Why don't you all simply go on a cruise, keep your religions private, do whatever it is that you do to beseech these supernatural beings in your own thoughts and in your own places, and leave the rest of us alone.

 

BnB

 

I'm going to catch up on pages of threads here soon. However, I decided to respond to you first. Most of your above statements are absurd and don't warrant a direct response. Look at my profile and postings and tell me where I represented myself as "gentle." If you know who Edmund Parker is (see my signature below) you would definately know that I'm not gentle.

 

Fr. Bayer was very successful in conducting a Non-Denominational Easter Service on the Carnival Legend. Fr. Bayer was popular among Catholics and other Christians who attended the service.

 

I would guess that around 90% of all Christian beliefs are exactly the same thing. Therefore, a minister of any Christian group would be able to lead a meaningful non-denominational service by simply sticking to core Christian values and beliefs.

[Bruin Steve]

We will be in Rhodes in August. We're heading for the clothing optional beach, but if you can tell me where the synagogue is located, we'll be sure to put something in the donation box.

 

The Synagogue is not far from the city gates right across from where the cruise ships dock:

 

It's the "A" on this map:

 

http://www.rhodesjewishmuseum.org/tour.htm

 

http://www.rhodesjewishmuseum.org/kahal.htm

[jessemon]

WOW!! I will say... I have lived in NC (Raleigh) most of my life and have never heard of anything like this happening... we are in the bible belt, and I can't imagine those things happening just over something like prayer in school... I'm guessing there is more to the story... Now, for all my CC friends that are coming to Raleigh next week, please don't let this story scare you :eek: Yikes!

This whole thread scares me.......wow......it just amazes me .......:(

[Attack Dog]

Whew, that was a lot of reading. I'm glad that people are being a little more respectful and agree to disagree. Let me paraphrase Bruin Steve. He brought up a valid point about worship being more meaningful among the locals of a destianation city then on the ship. I also understand that a cruise ship is not specifically a place or worship. It's supposed to be a temporary resort community.

 

However, it's not always easy or even available being able to make it to a proper place of worship. My original intent in starting this thread was to find out if there are enough people interested in having a religous service on board the ship. No the person doing the service does not absolutely have to be a member of the clergy. It's just nice to have a clergyman when they are available. On the Rhapsody Of The Seas they had a non-denominational service that was lead by a crewmember. I can't remember what her main job was. However, she was Catholic and missed being able to attend mass regularly due to her job. Therefore, she was allowed to lead a prayer service every Sunday when priest wasn't available. She did say that they had a priest on board the ship periodically.

 

Cruiselines are out to make money and please their passengers. If enough passenger would be pleased by having religious services on board then they should be allowed to have religious services. Like any other entertainment activity no one would be required to attend who does not wish to go.

 

As far as money goes. How expensive is it to do cruiselubbers' idea of having a room set aside for a everyone to meet and pray? Crewmembers and passengers could lead the service on their own if they wish or just sit together in silence.

 

I would rather have clergy on board. However, some of you feel that the cost of the clergyman might be passed on to you. Yes that is possible but I don't think you will notice the difference on your bill. If we are going to talk about financing someone elses activities then we should do away with all the free anmeties and entertainment on the ship. Not everyone goes to Friends of Dorothy or Bill W. Not everyone goes to the shows. Not everyone goes to the activities. Not everyone uses the formal dinning room. Some people don't use the pool... ect. I don't even use the elevators. However I don't complain about the cost of maintaining and operating the elevators coming out of my bill. Perhaps the only free service we all use on the ship is the toilet.

 

There are other cruiselines such as HAL and NCL that regularly have priests on board. There are enough paying customers who appreciate having religious services as part of the activities offered on the ship to justify this service. If enough of Carnival's clientele wants religious services then what's wrong with asking for it? I'm not asking for it specifically for me.

 

If this is so wrong then maybe we can ask Carnival to do away with all free services and entertainment options.

[girlinchicago]

i Also pay for Abortions, in my taxes, which i dont support. Should i go on...

Now do you see how silly this comment is

 

As for the OP, good idea,

 

Actually, there is no government/tax supported abortion option for anyone. If an organization wants government funding, they must prove that not only will they not perform abortions, they will not encourage people to seek out abortions elsewhere either. Just in case you were actually thinking your taxes went for abortions. Many people make silly statements about their taxes without actually knowing what they do.

[Attack Dog]

Idock information is outdated. Some federal money was once used to fund abortion clinics but that was cut years ago. I don't remember exactly how long ago that was.

[jessemon]

Actually, there is no government/tax supported abortion option for anyone. If an organization wants government funding, they must prove that not only will they not perform abortions, they will not encourage people to seek out abortions elsewhere either. Just in case you were actually thinking your taxes went for abortions. Many people make silly statements about their taxes without actually knowing what they do.

Now this is really getting to be fun. Religion and abortion at the same time. Oh...and politics.....:eek:

[cruiselubbers]

Now this is really getting to be fun. Religion and abortion at the same time. Oh...and politics.....:eek:

 

 

No doubt! :eek:

 

I'll plead the 5th on this next part! :D

[hstrybuf]

Now this is really getting to be fun. Religion and abortion at the same time. Oh...and politics.....:eek:

 

Gee, I thought this was a cruise board. Lubber, give it up. Please! :rolleyes:

[cruiselubbers]

Gee, I thought this was a cruise board. Lubber, give it up. Please! :rolleyes:

 

 

I didn't start that part of the post please re-read it.....I was agreeing that this thread shouldn't lead into abortion as the next thing. I never bought that into any part of this conversation! I simply stated that I would plead the 5th on that one....meaning I have no comment! :cool:

[CruiseToTahiti]

Idock information is outdated. Some federal money was once used to fund abortion clinics but that was cut years ago. I don't remember exactly how long ago that was.

 

Actually it isn't..if you would READ the entire post you would see the poster is from Canada where socialized medicine means that YES ..tax dollars do fund abortions....not that that is a bad thing!:cool:

[Attack Dog]

Actually it isn't..if you would READ the entire post you would see the poster is from Canada where socialized medicine means that YES ..tax dollars do fund abortions....not that that is a bad thing!:cool:

 

Good catch. Obviously Girlinchicago and I didn't look at the location of the poster.